8mm Winchester Power-Points

I've been useing Winchester Power-Points in various calibers for years and have always been pleased with their accuracy and performance. Well, this past weekend I shot a deer... good shot through both lungs...the deer ran about 25 yards and forever folded up...I saw where it fell. As I was walking up to the deer I was kind of looking for blood splatter (always makes me feel better when I can see a good blood trail) but was kind of amazed that I really wasn't seeing any. I didn't see any real evident blood spatter till I got right up on the spot where the deer stood for a second or two before falling over...there was plenty there. After the gutting and skinning I realized that while the bullet passed through both lungs, basically vaporizing them, that the bullet had slipped through the ribs both going in and coming out. And the exit hole appeared no bigger than the entrance hole! So my question is, will the Power-Points not expand just by hitting flesh? I know the whitetail deer ain't the toughest in the woods but I expected more than this. I know the Power-Points can be devistating if they hit a bone but this time twas not the case. I know this was probably a 1 in a 100 shot to not hit a rib bone but I'm seriously beggining to question my bullet of choice. Also the round I'm talking about is the 8mm Mauser, 170 grn. P-Point. The range was about 70 yards. This is the rifle I customized and make mention of in the long Mauser thread at the top of the page...this is its first deer blood. I don't reload so I'm kind of stuck with factory stuff. So..was this a fluke or do I need to find a better bullet?

Lung Shots

Deer have been know to run, when shot through the lungs. Sometimes farther than you mentioned.

Lungs shots were long advocated by the "gun writers" because the lungs are a big target, for hunters who never spend time at a rifle range.

Lung shots do have their downside. I like the upper "shoulder" shot that traces up the front legs. I've recovered one .35 Remington, 200 gr. bullet. It was just under the hide on the far side, and measured 70 caliber.

I won't condemn the lung shot. But I never did take one.

Oh I'm an advocate of the high shoulder shot...that's how I know that Power-Points can be devistating...just wasn't an option in this particular case. One more step and he was in the woods. Slightly quartering away, it was still a good shot.

Based on the condition of the lungs the Power-point obviously expanded. Most of the factory 8x57 ammo (especially the American made stuff) is VERY tame. Sounds like it probably expanded very quickly (typical of a round nose PP) and didn't have much weight/velocity left when it exited.

Weagle

weagle said:

Based on the condition of the lungs the Power-point obviously expanded...Sounds like it probably expanded very quickly (typical of a round nose PP) and didn't have much weight/velocity left when it exited.

Weagle

Click to expand...

Weagle,
Could you elaborate a little more, please? The bullet did exit, but the exit hole appeared to be the same size as the entrance with no more marked trauma. If it did in fact expand I would have expected a little more damage and a bigger hole coming out.
The advertized muzzle velocity for the Win-PP 170 grn. is 2360 FPS...no, not a .300 Win Mag but respectable I thought. I could go up to a Norma 196 grn SP at 2526 FPS but Norma wants better than $40 a box!!! I know you reload for the 8mm...what kind of velocities are you getting with your 150 grn bullets?
I appreciate you insight and experience...not many folks around I can talk about the old 8mm with.

If the bullet did not expand sufficiently, you would not have seen the lungs "vaporized" but rather it would have looked like the deer was shot with an arrow. Had you hit a rib either going in or out, the hole(s) would have been bigger because of "secondary projectiles" fancy words for bone fragments. It probably would not have killed the deer much if any faster but would have made you feel better!

There is a little video on Barne's site showing one of their TSX bullets going through some ballistic gelatin. It really illustrates how all expanding bullets work.

Before posting, I looked on Federal's website at the numbers for their 8mm round. It still has over 900 Ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards. Some "experts" say that is the minimum required for killing deer. So at least according to them, you have a 300 plus yard deer rifle.

I have to agree with RJ. If you had hit a rib on the way out, you'd have had a much larger hole - ditto, but to a lesser exent on the entrance hole. If'n it vaporized the lungs, then I'm sure it expanded. It would have expanded much more had you busted the rib on the entrance side.

Nothing wrong with your bullet or the factory ammo here, it falls within one standard deviation of expected performance.

Vaporizing lungs and leaving small exit would cause me to suspect jacket separation and/or bullet fragmentation resulting in only part of bullet exiting thus resulting in small exit. Remington CoreLokt and Hornady bullets are constructed to prevent core separating from jacket and are superior to Power Point IMO, and I've used Hornady and Remington loads with very good results for many years in several different calibers.

Just like bevills1 said,only part of the bullet exited which is why you had such a small exit hole.If the bullet had not expanded at all then the lungs would not have been destroyed.I also hunt with an 8MM and have observed the same thing.These are a great cartridge and I've never lost a deer hit with an 8MM.

Stan

As has been mentioned, the condition of the lungs suggests a rather explosive expansion and the small exit a result of a small portion of the bullet actually exiting.

My 8mm handloads are considerably faster than the American factory loads, but I don't try to push it to the max. Take a look at Sellier and Bellot's 196 grain load for an affordable 8x57 factory load for hunting. Cabella's has it.

Weagle

It is interesting to me that some of you fellas think that the bullet separated. The MV was only around 2300 FPS. I would not have thought that would be an issue with a 170 grain bullet going that slow?? Powerpoints do have jackets right??!!

Hey, you guys know more about this stuff than me that's for sure!

Nice bull redfish Weagle. At some point, you probably thought he was going to cause some muscle and ligament separation!

hmmmm.....I suppose the bullet "could" have come apart, but I would normally associate bullet fragmentation with hitting bone...which it did not in this case. And like was mentioned at 2360 fps and at 70 yards on a whitetail there is nothing on the extreme end of this equation.

I really like using my old Yugo...reasonably light, accurate and with the afore mentioned ammo there is no recoil. But I will admit with this ammo it's really in the same neighborhod as the old 30-30 ballistics wise. I've read where some folks have gotten near (don't know exactly what near is, but...)30-06 peformance out of the old 8mm with handloads. This may be the excuse for me to get into handloading. For those of you that are handloading for the 8mm, what are some good recipes you have and do you have any idea about the MV and downrange performance?

While I have a 30-06 in my arsenal I like using my Yugo 8mm. Hornady, Norma, S&B and even Wolf have a 196 grn SP that's loaded to a MV in the area of 2550. This just struck me as a little much for a whitetail with a 170 grn. being my other option. Do you y'all think that the 196 grn. may actually be a better option for deer and hogs than the 170 grn. PP? Shots rarely, rarely over 100 yards. Granted, I've shot a deer and a hog with this rifle and they both went down in reasonable fashion. Hog was a head shot..can you say cranial removal?...and the deer with the results I've already described. While on paper the ballistics of my current ammo appear a little whimpy, the meat is going down. I'm so confused now.

Thanks for all the discussion...I'm learning things.

Mike,
Any idea what velocities you reach with those loads? I'm not a speed freak, I'd just like to get a little more on the higher end of respectable. Thanks.

Thom, for ranges under 100 yards I don't think you have a thing to worry about. A lot of what we think we know or what we think we need is based on just what you said......looking at paper ballistics instead of real world results.

A major reason for this is that gun magazines tell us we need ever more powerful rifles and premium bullets because the gun and bullet manufactureres who advertise in them NEED us to buy ever more powerful rifles and premium bullets. Of course, most of us being American males, thinking that bigger is better and a lot bigger is a lot better just comes naturally!

When the 30-30 first came out some people thought it was too powerful for whitetail deer. They were used to hunting with now forgotten to us black powder cartridges. A huge portion of the big game on this continent was shot to extinction with muzzleloaders and round balls sporting ballistics that pale in comparison to your 8mm.

The 30-06 comes along. The oldtimers who used 30-30's said it was too powerful for deer. Now 100 years later, some people hunt deer with 300 magnums and larger and view the 30-06 as marginal. No kidding, they really do walk among us!

Quit worrying, take that Mauser, and go forth and slay stuff!

RJY66
The logical part of me agrees with everything you just said. I've never been a magnumized guy...in fact I dropped from using my 30-06 to a .243 because I felt like I was doing too much damage to meat...but I always had a good blood trail...not that I ever really needed it. I'm happy with the performance of my .243 on deer as well just got into this 8mm thing to be different. I supose I just need to get a few more critters under its belt before jumping to conclusions. But I tell you, not having a good blood trail on this first deer really bothers me...if I keep hunting long enough the day will come when I'll need it.

The Turkish 8MM surplus ammo is really hot.It is moving about 2950FPS with a 146 grain bullet.For 8MM hunting ammo I pull the FMJ bullet and replace it with a 150 grain soft point using the same powder load.It makes for an awesome 8mm hunting load.

Stan

Stan in SC said:

The Turkish 8MM surplus ammo is really hot.It is moving about 2950FPS with a 146 grain bullet.For 8MM hunting ammo I pull the FMJ bullet and replace it with a 150 grain soft point using the same powder load.It makes for an awesome 8mm hunting load.

Stan

Click to expand...

I've heard of folks doing that...is the Turk stuff corrosive?

thomasr said:

I've heard of folks doing that...is the Turk stuff corrosive?

Click to expand...

Very, but clean the rifle properly and it's a non-issue. I've had enough split necks on the cases that I don't use it anymore either.

You might take a look at these http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=583743&t=11082005 They are said to be loaded to better than 2500 fps which would give you much closer to the Eurospec loadings.

You're also right that the Norma Oryx loads are expensive, but even at $45 a box if you only shot 3 deer a year that'd be less than $7 for the ammo you actually used in the field.

7x57 said:

Very, but clean the rifle properly and it's a non-issue. I've had enough split necks on the cases that I don't use it anymore either.

You might take a look at these http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=583743&t=11082005 They are said to be loaded to better than 2500 fps which would give you much closer to the Eurospec loadings.

You're also right that the Norma Oryx loads are expensive, but even at $45 a box if you only shot 3 deer a year that'd be less than $7 for the ammo you actually used in the field.

Click to expand...

3 Shots a year??? Well that's no fun. Seriously, when I first started looking for ammo the Hornady stuff was a serious consideration from Midway, but they were "not available" at the time so I went with what I could get locally...the Win PPs. No telling how long they had been sitting on Chuck's shelf. I kind of like the numbers of the Hornady stuff a lot better but couldn't shake the feeling that 196 grn. was over-kill for a whitetail. Maybe not? Like I said, maybe I'll dance with the one brought for this season and experiment a little next summer. Still very open to comments and factual experience. I do like my Yugo.

3 shots a year on game. You could certainly buy the S&B ammo to just blast away with.

I would venture to guess if you sectioned one of the bullets you'd find it's a thin jacketed bullet. I would assume that because it's been loaded to such a pedestrian velocity for so many years and that's not exactly a new bullet design. I don't think 196g is overkill for deer - especially when so many of the 170g loads are so anemic. I've shot a few of the Remington 170g loads over a crony before and they clocked about 2250 fps. That's .30-30 level.

The field experience I can give you is from the 185g Remington CoreLoct and the 180g BT. Of course both of mine are loaded considerably hotter than what the wimpy Remington and Winchester loadings would give you so I am not sure what you can draw from it. I load the 185g Coreloct to about 2600 fps and the 180g BT to around 2650 fps. I shoot them out of a Yugo M48 and a 1944 Turk M38. I've never had a deer stop either one of them, but I found the Nosler BT to be a little soft on feral hogs (no exits). Exit holes on the deer were pretty large and they bled heavily.

I would tend to agree with the others that feel since the lungs were destroyed, you may very well have had a core jacket separation and the exit was caused by a small portion of the bullet.