Question......???????

I have read how corn is bad for the deer,and baiting is a unsportsman like way to hunt.My question is and this is not trying to start a debate.

Why is corn bad for the deer?Farmers have been feeding livestock corn for several hundred years.All feed recipes have corn in them.I would guess it is the no.1 feed ingredient in the U.S.and now it is not good for the deer!

What is the difference between hunting over a acorn head,food plot,corn field,peanut field,soybean field,or corn feeder,or for that matter a well used game trail?All of these places are places where deer use.They go to the acorn head for acorns,food plot for whats planted,corn field for corn,peanut field for peanuts,soybean field for soybeans,corn feeder for corn,well used game trail cause it is the best or adopted way to travel.What is the difference?

Dumb answers don't count!

to me there is a difference. you have to hunt for the acorn trees and etc. however, if you live in south ga (which i grew up on a 1000acre farm in south georgia )just going to a soybean field is not much different than pouring out corn. which i think is why the hunters in south georgia see no difference. but if you have never hunted on a farm you have no idea what i mean by deer LOVE A 50 ACRE SOYBEAN FIELD. also timers can be put on feeders to ensure that feed is only available first come first serve. which is not true with food plots and acorn trees.

The timers on feeders only tell you whatr time the feeder will go off... Not what time the deer choose to show up
Regardless of the corn on the ground or in a feeder,,, The deer will choose if thats what they want or the fresh green brows, or the honey suckle, or the crab apples, or...

Guess I'll ask this question here then ... what is the law now in Ga. about helping the wildlife with feeders and foodplots and what do some people want to change the law to that causes them to call it "Baiting" and get all in an ulcer flairing huf about?

Good Question

Cal: I don't have the full and complete answer to your question, but I can fill in some gaps. Deer like every other creature will benefit from some balance in their diet. Deer will habitually visit a corn pile and become highly dependent upon the corn, to their detriment. This implies that deer which feed on a variety of plants will be more healthy.

Corn is an acceptable feed for livestock, as proven by the fact that farmers once thought that a hog fattened on anything other than corn was not ready for butchering. While corn is an acceptable feed, it in no way matches up with soybeans, alfafa, or other high nutrient crops. I don't have the numbers before me, but corn is relatively low in Protein which plays a vital role in the diet of Whitetails.

Corn is not bad, it just is not the best feed that is available.

Vernon

+/- 6% protien.

I can't answer your question with all the technical words required to give a complete explanation but let me try this. Corn, in and of of itself is not the problem, the problem is a fungus developed by corn when it gets damp as in when it lays on the ground for very long. This fungus can and will kill deer and turkey in a very short time when they eat it. That said, corn as a supplemental food is not a bad thing if managed correctly and feeders are maintained properly. Since hunting over bait is illegal in Georgia that should not even be a consideration. For a more comprehensive answer to your questions, call the wildlife biologist in your local Game Management unit.
As for hunting near or over food plots or the neighbors corn field that is pretty close to hunting as it has been practiced for hundreds of generations. Find where the game eats, sleeps and drinks and position yourself along the routes the game will travel in order to use these features, kill game, eat well.

I am probably speaking out of turn because I really don't know much about this but.....

I have heard that "deer corn" cannot be fed to cattle because it is not treated for aflatoxins, and because of this, it may not be good for deer and turkeys either. Some or most people who bait probably don't use "feed corn" because it is more expensive. Perhaps this is where the idea than corn is "not good for deer" came from.

I don't know if this is true or not. There are plenty of deer and turkeys in SC where they bait all the time.

Perhaps someone who has raised cattle could comment?

Yeah.. .and them TEXAS deer are just suffering

What I believe Blue Ridge Trapper is eluding to is what is known as Aflotoxins. Some corn has been know to contain Aflotoxins which can kill turkeys and I suppose deer also if they were to eat enough of it. It is also thought to possibly spread CWD when several deer eat from the same trough, however I presume at least one of them would have to have the CWD to begin with. Unfortunately there is not enough known about the disease to know where it is derived from, though I know that Mad Cow disease is thought to come from feeding livestock animal parts. It should be noted that this practice has been banned in the US.

The difference between F/P's and baiting is that Deer can be trained to come to feeders during the day with feeders that have timers. These feeders usually make a noticable noise when they go off and deer can and will run to the feeder when they go off in order to feed. I've seen them do the same thing on acorn trees and persimmon trees. The only difference is that they are a natural part of their environment where the feeders are not.

I can tell you this, if you have a 100 acre block of land where baiting is allowed and a 100 acre of land adjoining it where baiting is not allowed, the majority of deer are going to be on the baited tract of land. I've seen it to many times where neighboring tracts were baiting to know that this true.

Hope that helps some and if I'm incorrect on anything, someone please correct me.

Actually the deer in states where feeding and hunting over bait are suffering greatly. The State Wildlife Biologists in many of the states that presently allow baiting are doing their best to stop the practice in their state.

Among those are South Carolina, Wisconsin, New York and as you can see from this piece posted below Michigan as well:

BIOLOGICAL ISSUES
There are several biological issues to consider concerning baiting; however, research on the topic is limited because baiting deer is illegal in many states, not often practiced in others, and thus not widely viewed as a management issue (Dawson 1988). Although baiting has not been widely studied, some results from research done on supplemental feeding can be applied to baiting.

DISEASE

The primary biological consideration of baiting deer is the increased potential for disease transmission whenever animals are concentrated (Leopold 1933). As part of the evaluation of the bovine TB eradication process in Michigan, research is being conducted to determine the effects of feeding and baiting on deer movement, migratory patterns, and behavior. Unregulated baiting can concentrate deer for a prolonged period of time, in contrast to the normal grazing or browsing practices of deer in the wild. Concentration leads to close animal-to-animal contact and stress that may facilitate transmission of diseases such as bovine TB. The strongest hypothesis proposed by scientists involved with the problem is that the maintenance of bovine TB in Michigan white-tailed deer is directly related to supplemental feeding/baiting and the increased focal densities these practices create (Schmitt et al. 1997). Under the unnatural circumstances of supplemental feeding, inhalation of the bovine TB bacteria or consumption of feed contaminated with bovine TB bacteria by coughing and exhalation is much more likely to occur (Schmitt et al. 1997). In response to the bovine TB outbreak, the Michigan Department of Agriculture (MDA) prohibited supplemental feeding practices within the Bovine TB Management Area except for the purposes of baiting during hunting seasons. The NRC then restricted the amount of bait that could be used in that area to reduce the occurrence of deer concentrations. These regulations limit the amount of bait that can be used at one time to five gallons and restrict baiting to a September-January 3 period. These measures were thought necessary to help eliminate bovine TB in the deer population in the northeastern Lower Peninsula by reducing large concentrations of deer at feeding and baiting sites within this area, while still allowing hunters the opportunity to harvest deer over the bait. Another disease of deer that has been observed in free-ranging deer and elk in Colorado and Wyoming and captive deer and elk in South Dakota, Oklahoma and Nebraska is chronic wasting disease (CWD). Experimental and circumstantial evidence suggests infected deer and elk probably transmit the disease through animal-to-animal contact and/or contamination of food or water sources with saliva, urine, and/or feces (Williams and Young 1980, Miller, Wild and Williams 1998). Chronic wasting disease seems more likely to occur in areas where deer or elk are crowded or where they congregate at man-made feed and water stations. Artificial feeding or baiting of deer and elk may compound the problem (Williams and Young 1980, Miller et al. 1998). This disease has not been reported in Michigan; however due to its spread in the western U.S., it remains a potential problem (T. Cooley, DNR, Rose Lake Wildlife Lab., East Lansing, MI, pers. comm.). Other diseases of concern in white-tailed deer in North America are anthrax, blackleg, brucellosis, hemmorhagic disease, vesicular stomatitis, leptospirosis, listeriosis, tularemia, anaplasmosis, and brain worm (Hurley 1995). Blackleg has been reported in Michigan in association with deer that had been injured during capture. Hemmorhagic disease outbreaks have occurred in Michigan, although the effects were not widespread (T. Cooley, DNR, Rose Lake Wildlife Lab., East Lansing, MI, pers. comm.). Brain worm is present in Michigan deer but is of no public health significance since it is not infective to humans (T. Cooley, DNR, Rose Lake Wildlife Lab., East Lansing, MI, pers. comm.). Although it is difficult to attribute the spread of disease to deer density alone, it is true that some disease problems arise more commonly in areas of high density and are less frequent in low-density areas (Eve 1981). This can be attributed to several factors including poor nutrition, stress, and increased number of animal-to-animal contacts (Davidson 1981). Enterotoxemia, a disease of overeating, affects yarded deer subjected to supplemented feeding. Hunters frequently use high-energy, high-carbohydrate foods such as corn as bait, which has been shown to affect the microflora in the deer rumen. The overeating of these food sources increases the fermentation (lower pH -
more acidic) that occurs in the deer’s rumen, which causes bloating and leads to diarrhea, enteritis, and possible death. Michigan deer also concentrate in winter yards and other areas even where bait is not present, although enterotoxemia has only been found in yarded deer, which are fed supplemental high-energy, high-carbohydrate food (Michigan DNR 1993). This disease occurs almost yearly in Michigan, although it is reported in relatively low numbers (T. Cooley, DNR, Rose Lake Wildlife Lab., East Lansing, MI, pers. comm.).

EFFECT ON MOVEMENT PATTERNS

There are other aspects of deer biology that could be negatively affected by unregulated baiting practices. For example, baiting may delay deer migration to winter habitats (Ozoga and Verme 1982). A delay in migration due to fall baiting may keep deer in areas lacking natural food sources and cause starvation when sources of supplemental feed are stopped. Another behavioral change in deer frequently attributed to deer baiting is increased nocturnal activity (Charles 1993). Synatzke (1981) observed heavy nocturnal use of bait in Texas. Use of baited sites seemed to become more nocturnal as the hunts progressed, possibly reflecting increased wariness of deer due to continuous hunting pressure. This may suggest that human disturbance rather than the influence of bait may affect the nocturnal and diurnal behavior of deer. A Mississippi study reported that, as the number of hunters at bait sites increased, the daylight activity of the bucks at the sites decreased. That study noted that bucks used the bait stations during only 10 percent of the legal shooting hours. This suggests that human disturbance affected deer activity more so than the use of bait (Wegner 1993, as cited in Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources 1993).


HABITAT

Deer baiting may also affect surrounding habitats. Any concentration of large herbivores can damage habitat, although one study suggested that deer browsing may increase smooth sumac production (Strauss 1991).
Examples of negative habitat changes are the severe damages that have occurred on private club lands, resulting in changes in tree species composition, retarded forest regeneration, and delayed development of
stands (Michigan DNR 1993). Ullrey observed that a food supplement block caused deer to concentrate in the vicinity of the block and speculated that this may increase deer damage to the natural vegetation in the area (D. Ullrey, MSU, Animal Science Dept., E. Lansing, MI, letter in DNR files, Jan. 26, 1993). Damage on public land is primarily localized and has not created severe damage, with the exception of cedar swamps. Northern white cedar is sensitive to browsing and long-term damage may result to stands due to deer browsing. Effects of baiting due to concentrating large numbers of deer may not be easily measured, especially when the deer population is growing concurrently. The increased amount of food available through baiting may also positively effect reproduction rates, especially when combined with supplemental feeding. This may raise population levels much higher than the natural habitat can support. Maintaining deer populations within limits of the habitat carrying capacity probably is the single-most effective means of reducing density dependent problems including infectious diseases (Davidson 1981).

This report went on to discribe the effects of such "unethical" practices on the future of the sport but I'm certain y'all don't care about such trivial topics as ethical practices.

RJY66 said:

I have heard that "deer corn" cannot be fed to cattle because it is not treated for aflatoxins, and because of this, it may not be good for deer and turkeys either.

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For generations, farmers have gathered their own corn and left it in "cribs" in the barn to feed their livestock throughout the winter months. This corn wasn't treated for anything, aflatoxins included. This untreated corn was fed to horses, cows, hogs, goats, chickens, and whatever else the farmer might have owned.

Maybe some livestock died from eating this untreated corn, but I doubt there has ever been an "epidemic" that wiped out a farmer's entire herd.

The "untreated" corn theory don't hunt.

(Not jumping on you, RJY)

The Snakeman

Nice, long, read, Jeff. Had a lot of big words in it. But one small word was used repeatedly, "may".

I could go through that article, line by line, and rebut most of what they say. But I won't.

One thing I will comment on is this, deer density. If there is a higher deer density, there will be more instances of disease (statistics), and the diseases are more likely to spread to other animals. After all, children in large daycare centers have more colds than children who are isolated at home, too.

I have seen large numbers of deer (20-30)congregating in open fields where there was no bait. Are these "naturally" congregating deer any more or less likely to spread disease than those who congregate around "supplemental feeds"?

The Snakeman

Even if it's low protine whole corn, as long as it's fresh from a spin type feeder there are no ill effects on the deer population.
I have 5 bucks in velvet walking into my yard every night, one looks like a santas reindeer and every year I've had more deer, more healthy deer since I started my two spin feeders over eight years ago and have kept them full and working, I take my opinion from my front porch, not some prejudice artical from 1933.
Again, can someone tell me how the Ga. law is going to change if so called "Baiting " is allowed?

RJY66 said:

I am probably speaking out of turn because I really don't know much about this but.....

I have heard that "deer corn" cannot be fed to cattle because it is not treated for aflatoxins, and because of this, it may not be good for deer and turkeys either. Some or most people who bait probably don't use "feed corn" because it is more expensive. Perhaps this is where the idea than corn is "not good for deer" came from.

I don't know if this is true or not. There are plenty of deer and turkeys in SC where they bait all the time.

Perhaps someone who has raised cattle could comment?

Click to expand...

Most deer corn is subpar corn that failed the companies quality control testing for livestock, alfatoxin is usually what caused the failed test,alfatoxin is caused by mold.

It is usually bagged in paper, which compounds the problem as the corn can't breath, it will sweat in temp. changes.

To my knowledge there is no rules or testing for corn labeled for wildlife feed.

It is always best to buy feed corn from a feed store, they sell enough at these places to keep it fresh and it comes in polyester bags that are weaved to allow for air circulation thereby preventing as much sweating as possible.

Most deer corn is subpar corn that failed the companies quality control testing for livestock, alfatoxin is usually what caused the failed test,alfatoxin is caused by mold.

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So your telling me that the billions of bags of corn that Wal-Mart sells with the Moultrie name on it is sub par corn full of Aflotoxins? And yet a companie like Moultrie risks it's name and possible lawsuits by marketing it? And Wal-Mart knowingly risks contaminating the deer heards around the country by selling it?

Just 1 More said:

So your telling me that the billions of bags of corn that Wal-Mart sells with the Moultrie name on it is sub par corn full of Aflotoxins? And yet a companie like Moultrie risks it's name and possible lawsuits by marketing it? And Wal-Mart knowingly risks contaminating the deer heards around the country by selling it?

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Quite possibly....its unregulated and not tested when used for wildlife.

The biggest risk is to turkeys, they are more sensitive to toxins of any kind.

Big business's realize the likely hood of getting busted selling tainted corn is low, if it does kill some animals how many dead ones would be found and if some were found who would or could go to the trouble or expense to prove tainted deer corn was to blame.

Moultrie has the worse cameras and feeders in the business...What's that say about their corn?

SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF ** TO ME -- I live in a town with 1 of the biggest seed producing companys in the US-- . I have many friends who work in production / and QC dept. Corn or any seed comes in by the truck loads and gets tested --there is no treatment they put on corn ---- . Maybe yall should actually drive to a mill that makes some of this stuff and you can find out first hand how the process works . My kids go on field trips every yr and learn how it works .REMEMBER WHEN YOU USED TO DO THAT. FYI this same mill bags most of your top name deer feeds / goat chow /apple scented corn / bird feed / squirell feed -- there is no special corn for any recipe of feed and its all done in the same house and comes out in differnt bags '' its called MARKETING ---WALLY WORLD trucks leave daily --- SS

short stop said:

SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF ** TO ME -- I live in a town with 1 of the biggest seed producing companys in the US-- . I have many friends who work in production / and QC dept. Corn or any seed comes in by the truck loads and gets tested --there is no treatment they put on corn ---- . Maybe yall should actually drive to a mill that makes some of this stuff and you can find out first hand how the process works . My kids go on field trips every yr and learn how it works .REMEMBER WHEN YOU USED TO DO THAT. FYI this same mill bags most of your top name deer feeds / goat chow /apple scented corn / bird feed / squirell feed -- there is no special corn for any recipe of feed and its all done in the same house and comes out in differnt bags '' its called MARKETING ---WALLY WORLD trucks leave daily --- SS

Click to expand...

There is no treatment for alfatoxin, just preventive measures.

Corn can mold around the sides of bins and warehouses where it is stored in bulk.Alfatoxin can start in the feild if there is a delayed harvest and rainy weather.

Alfatoxin can grow in the paper bags if they are exposed to temp. swings becaused the corn can't get air....like deer corn.


Deer corn is unregulated.

If there was not a difference in quality there would not be deer corn......just regular corn.

Would wally world buy a cheaper grade of corn that failed quality control testing for livestock feed to use it for deer corn and save 50 cents a bushel ?