Good Ol' Days?

I just read the letter to the editor from Jeremy Stanley of Dacula in this months GON. I am an optimist. I would like to believe that the biologist and wildlife professionals that come up with our deer density's are right on the money when they tell us where we stand. I do agree that the deer population is very healthy, and that the QDM measures have increased the survival of yearling bucks but I tend to agree with Jeremy on sightings. Last season I did not see many deer. I killed 3, 2 with my bow and one with my gun. This year I have been stumped. I have seen 1 yealing doe and it's mama the 3rd day of bow season. I have not seen a deer since and I hunt on the average of 6 times per week. I understand that there are a multitude of factors that can cause this, but I consider myself a decent hunter and I can generally find the deer. I have to believe that deer numbers ARE DOWN despite what the professionals say. I would like to hear what you all have to say about it.

Agree #'s are down and trend will continue

Too liberal doe limits and doe days.

Too many people take everthing they see.
Why don't just take what you can use?

Braintree

I commented last year that deer numbers continue to erode year by year and have for last 5 years or so. I certain that is what is intended to happen with the liberal doe days, etc....

Our club made a decision last year to manage ourselves and NOT what DNR told us we could harvest, so each member took one or two deer and no more based on what we feel is lower numbers of deer than what is reported in our county and area. Almost every club around me for the last 3 years have reported few and fewer deer sightings and harvests. This year we are seeing a few more deer per hunter, so we are happy in that, but still not seeing the numbers of deer we have traditionally seen for the last 20 years or so while hunting various counties in Georgia. I like the idea of bigger bucks, but also like the idea of seeing deer in general when I go to the woods. I like the idea of doe days any day of the season to allow someone to take a doe when they are ready, but I wish the limit would be cut back to a more reasonable number.

Why let the Insurance company drive the future of hunting in Georgia?

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I am still waiting on proof of this. Logical scapegoat, but I have yet to see or hear articulable, exigent proof thta Insurance companies set guidelines for seasons or bag limits. Hunters and science are a greater driving factor than insurance companies.

I have to believe that deer numbers ARE DOWN despite what the professionals say.

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I don't recall stating that the state population is up or increasing. Nor am I aware of any professionals that have. In fact, according to the data, I believe we have indicated that the state herd has remained stable over the last several years since peaking in 1997 (http://www.gohuntgeorgia.com/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=210&txtPage=3).

Does this necessarily apply to each and everyone's club? No. I would hope that the hunters for each club are managing their club's harvest by more than WAG's. That is, knowing where they are starting at, having defined goals, having an undertsood harvest strategy, keeping good records, and working toward a goal. If not, then I suggest contacting a regional biologist for free technical assistance. Otherwise, a club can't go from A to Z without knowing what A is and without having defined Z and a strategy to get there.

We all like to see

high numbers of deer ....but with QDM, Trophy Management pratices, the continual loss of public (and private) hunting land - more deer in less area, overbrowsed property etc. I always thought the goal of liberal harvest limits was to give the sportsman an avenue and opportunity to help control the deer population - DNR did not mandate that we must all harvest our limit.... in other words reduce the doe population on your land which will bring it more inline with your properties carry capacity. If you have a balanced herd and healthy herd that is not too high (in number of deer) for your property, I wouldn't expect to see "as many deer as in the past" ... I think it is a educational issue and as JB posted it is very important as a wildlife manager (everytime you pull the trigger on a deer, you are making a wildlife management decision and DNR has nothing to do with a hunter harvesting or not harvesting deer -that's the hunter responsiblity) to pull jawbones, record weights and harvest numbers, ask for help from a bioligist, and set goals for your property. For those of us that do these things religiously and revert back to the records each year to establish yearly harvest goals, I think you will find you too prefer liberial limits. Reverse the situation for a minute, suppose you are seeing high numbers of deer everytime you go, but the weights are down, the general herd health suffers, and all the older bucks are small because of lack of nutrition, but the law says you can only legally take 3 or 5 deer. If you want to manage the overall health of your herd, you simply can not legally do it.
I will borrow a paraphrased line from JBowers (if I may??!!): Are you thinking about what is better for the whitetail herd or the hunter?

Bottom line: just because you can take 12, doesn't mean you must take 12.

I bagged 6 deer last year and saw deer in great numbers almost every time I entered the woods. That was hunting private land in Hancock County with a good percentage of the land in high yield food plots.

This year I’m hunting primarily public land, yet I’m having much the same result. I see deer everywhere.

I see deer browsing outside my office here in Tucker. I see deer in my Fall garden at home in a subdivision in Monroe. I see deer while traveling to my construction sites all around the state. I see them laying along the road where they fallen from attacks by autos. I see them everywhere!

I’m certain that there are small pockets around the state where there are less deer than there are in others but I believe that we must be very close to carrying capacity.

When I was a boy, growing up hunting in Walton and Morgan Counties, we did not deer hunt. We hunted rabbits and squirrels. There were no deer to speak of! We were very excited when we happened to find a deer track. As a matter of fact I can remember going home after a morning hunt and my Pa Paw telling my uncle about us seeing a deer track and my uncles excitement that made us load up and take him to see the track.

Then in the early to mid ‘70’s, a teenaged boy could hunt hard during deer season and hope to see a couple of deer and maybe bag a buck every other year.

Then in the mid 80’s a young man could expect to see a few deer during a hard week of hunting and take a buck and maybe even a “sacred doe” for the freezer!

These days, we all know the history of how the DNR working with the dedicated sportsmen and landowners of Georgia restocked the whitetail all around the state with the result being a population near or above 2 million animals in the '90's. The herd grew to this point because these folks knew a bit about what they were doing and had enough sense to realize that when they made mistakes not to continue making those errors.

We have the great herd we enjoy now due to the hard work and dedication put forth by that group of men and women. They have done the surveys, spent the time afield, educated themselves all the while working with us to develop what I know to be the greatest, healthiest, free-ranging big game herd in the nation.

The limit that we now enjoy is simply a tool. We as hunters owe it to the resource to understand how to use that tool.

I use an example to try to illustrate the impact, or lack thereof, of taking the limit:

If a man hunting 1 square mile of land that contains 25 deer takes his limit of 12 in one season, he will have 13 deer remaining at the end of the season. If his doe to buck ratio is 5 to 1 (the average in Ga. Is closer to 8 to 1) he will have about 10 females. Females average about 1.6 fawns per year. That means that by Summer his population will be back up to 29. This of course does not take into account natural attrition, auto accidents etc.

Many variables could effect this little example but I don’t think it is far fetched.

In many areas of our state the population is 40 per square mile and I know some may be 15 or so per square mile.

We have a tool called a limit. If you have done the surveys of your land and know that you don’t have many deer don’t take many. If your survey shows that you have 45 per square mile with a doe to buck ratio of 8 to 1, fire at will!

Don’t point your finger at WRD because we hunters, as a whole, will not use the tools they have given us. They along with the aforementioned dedicated sportsmen and landowners are responsible for our wonderful opportunities and I for one, am proud of them and the work they do for you and me.

I look at our deer herd as I would my cattle herd.If I sell or do away with my breeding stock,how can I expect my herd to remain stable.Next year I do away with some more of my breeding stock.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why my cattle herd keeps getting smaller.The local club close to me has killed one small doe since season opened.This includes bowseason too.They have food plots planted and practice a ridged set of rules as to what can be harvested.The deer are not here around me anyway.

I hate to sound like a broken record,but if we as hunters keep on shooting everything we see we will be out of the deer business before long.Sharpen your pencil and go figure!

JBowers,
What is the normal range or territory of a mature buck?I have been told it is 5 square miles.If this is so it is almost imposible to control what happens to any buck because of their range!I know when we were dog hunting we would run lots of deer farther than 5 miles.I always believe they knew where they were going because they would use established crossing.A strange deer would cross anywhere because he wasn't at home!Just my thoughts!

I have shot 7 does this year and plan on taking the rest after x mas. There are too many does in my area and I see about 10 does to 1 buck shoot all the does in Harris county just my 2 cents

I have to believe the numbers are down also. I remember when we had only a few doe days I would see two to six does every time I hunted. I sometimes now go six trips to the woods and never see a deer.

We manage our land,plant fall and spring food plots. We have antler restrictions and also limit members to four deer total. The clubs around us say they do the same.

I spend a lot of times in the woods and have been doing this long enough to think I am a pretty competant hunter but I have really struggled to see deer the last three years or so.

SW Ga

As one who hunts SW Ga, I can tell you...the population is looooow. I don't care how you count; deer per square mile or deer per forested square mile, the deer numbers are thin in the agricultural regions of SW Ga.

I've heard every observation, "A deer's gotta leave sign...tracks, doo-doo, beds? Surely you see them at night in fields and crossing roads? As much time as farmers and those in the timber industry spend outdoors, they see them all the time, right? C'mon...the processors take in the same number of deer (give or take a few) year in-year out?"

I'm here to tell you...efforts to stabalize/moderate the population is WORKING in SW Ga counties.

Junebug

Dean said:

Bottom line: just because you can take 12, doesn't mean you must take 12.

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I don't want you guys to think that I mow everything down that has 4 legs. I have never paid attention to the limit. I hunt on 130 acres in southern Bulloch Co. I manage my land the best way I can with non managing land owners bordering our property. I kill 3-4 deer a year with most being does. I have killed 2 bucks the last 3 years (I think).

deer # down ! maybe where you hunt not me . I have the ablity to hunt every day on diff. proprties in Morgan co . some tracts simply have more deer on them due to food and hunting pressure . Last year in DEC. on 1 farm my son and I counted 105 '' thats not a typo '' deer in 1 field talk about spoilin your kid rotten ! I can think about when I was a kid and hunted all season only seeing 1 or 2 deer . theres more here than there used to be -- been around the same place for 20 yrs .GOOD OL' DAYS used to be when some body hit a deer with vehicle you couldn't get back to it quick enuf before it was cut up and carted off! Now you see 'em laying all over the roads from 1 side of the co. to the other ! SS

I know for a fact the the deer numbers around my neck of Oglethorpe County are way,way down but are starting to rebound slightly. Like Frank, a couple of years ago, I hunted every weekend and from Thanksgiving on, I never saw a deer. It is not DNR's fault but mainly the "trophy management" mentality. Shoot every doe you see for the good of the herd. We have also had alot of land turnover and club turnover in the area and most knew that they had a 1 year lease. This leads to shoot everything you see also. All the land adjoining us now is privately owned and none is leased so I hope to see the deer get back to decent numbers in the future.

Yes the numbers of deer on my club is way off what it used to be,but we see more and bigger bucks.We have never slaughtered our doe herd,but you cant stop what the clubs around you do.We used to take about 20 deer a year.Now we take maybe 7.Its fine with me I likes seeing them bucks!

I can't speak for the entire state of Georgia, but I hunt 3000 plus ac. in Screven Co. These properties are within 20 miles of each other and every single one of them is LOADED with deer!!!!! I will probably kill all 10 does and I have already taken my limit on bucks! I have passed up 6-7 bucks this year so far!

Just in case you did not see my thread.
http://www.woodystaxidermy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4553

http://www.woodystaxidermy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4559

just as tom said, we see LOTS of deer. thank goodness. it just must be location.

CAL said:

What is the normal range or territory of a mature buck?I have been told it is 5 square miles.If this is so it is almost imposible to control what happens to any buck because of their range!I know when we were dog hunting we would run lots of deer farther than 5 miles.I always believe they knew where they were going because they would use established crossing.A strange deer would cross anywhere because he wasn't at home!Just my thoughts!

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I assume home range is your point. Home range is basically the area that an individual needs to fulfill its needs for food, mating and raising offspring. So, it varies within a year (e.g. seasonally) and between years. Its must be large enough to meet these needs yet samll enough to insure a survival advantage through familiarity. Deer in southern ranges generally have smaller and more stable ranges than their counterparts in northern ranges. Deer in more heavily vegetated ranges have smaller ranges than deer in more open ranges. Home ranges can vary dependent on density or population, hence larger populations increase density and home ranges tend to be smaller whereas in lower densities home ranges tend to be larger. In Georgia, adult bucks generally have a annual home range of about 1 square mile or less. In general does have a smaller range. Home ranges are irregular in shape and individual home ranges overlap. Hence, densities of several deer per square mile. Buck home ranges increase during the rut. For example, outside the rut a buck is likley to have an average home range of about 300 acres or less, but it may double, on average, during the rut. During times when food resources are abundant it may shrink and vice-versa.

On the effects of home range and movements of deer during dog deer hunts, there has been some recent research on this. In genera, the results indicate that deer use a greater proportion of their seasonal home range during dog deer hunts and usually stay within that home range with a brief and occasional foray out of their home range, but they return to that home range.

Thanks JBowers for the reply.I understand what you are saying.Read an article some years ago about deer habits in South Ga.where there is very little wooded areas.The article was basically stating what a small range deer had in those areas!

Good Old Days Gone

I remimber when you could knock on somebody's door and ask for permission to hunt. Now you have to meet them at the bank take out a loan. I remimber when you could ride dirt roads all day and never cross a paved road.I remimber when you could find a good scrape line and hunt.I remimber when a property line was a property line.I remimber when you had to manage your tags now you have to manage your check book. (65.00 x 12 = 780 )It seemes to me that hunting has went from a traditional sport to a industry. I don't know how much more the woods and wildlife can take.

J Bowers stated:
"I would hope that the hunters for each club are managing their club's harvest by more than WAG's. That is, knowing where they are starting at, having defined goals, having an undertsood harvest strategy, keeping good records, and working toward a goal."

This is a nice thought but it is not happening on a wide scale. Most are just good ole boys hunting to shoot something. All that managing makes is making heads hurt.

I still dont think the DNR really has a clue as to the actual harvest each year. IMO