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View Full Version : A ? for the athiests - scandal @ New Hope


VisionCasting
09-28-2010, 02:51 PM
I have a serious question for the atheists - I'm not really interested in hearing from Christians or people of other religious viewpoints.

When you see news like this Eddie Long @ New Hope story break, what do you think about it? Do you just chalk it up to another hypocritical 'religious' guy, does it further lend credibility (or passion) to your atheist viewpoint?

WTM45
09-28-2010, 03:03 PM
Changes very little in my opinion.
I view it as similiar to hearing about a dirty cop, a crooked politician, a cheating car dealership owner, a drunk package store owner or a overweight storekeeper having a heart attack.
Or, a banker/bookeeper caught embezzling funds.

I think it means more to those who actually give the position of authority and respect to the minister in question.

He deserves his day in court.
He deserves whatever comes his way.

Oh, I'm more Agnostic than I am Athiest. Hope you don't mind I commented.

dexrusjak
09-28-2010, 03:22 PM
I have a serious question for the atheists - I'm not really interested in hearing from Christians or people of other religious viewpoints.

When you see news like this Eddie Long @ New Hope story break, what do you think about it? Do you just chalk it up to another hypocritical 'religious' guy, does it further lend credibility (or passion) to your atheist viewpoint?

I think a lot of Christians (at least the one's I know) believe that Christianity has the market on morals and ethical behavior. They believe that only Christians are capable of truly doing good (because of the Holy Spirit). Stories like this demonstrate that Christians do not have the market on morality. They do stupid stuff just like us heathen. I have no doubt that the Bishop is as much a Christian as any other Christian out there. He doesn't have any special power to do good (Holy Spirit), so he screws up like everyone else. I'm sure many Christians would argue that he was acting outside of the will of God, that he is backslidden, or that he never was a "real" Christian. Whatever that is.

Christians are people. People do dumb stuff. He did dumb stuff and got caught. I see it no differntly than I would if an atheist in a powerful position (CEO for example) did the same thing.

Just my 2 cents.

pnome
09-28-2010, 03:39 PM
I have a serious question for the atheists - I'm not really interested in hearing from Christians or people of other religious viewpoints.

When you see news like this Eddie Long @ New Hope story break, what do you think about it? Do you just chalk it up to another hypocritical 'religious' guy, does it further lend credibility (or passion) to your atheist viewpoint?

My first thought is skepticism.(imagine that!)

This whole Eddie Long things makes for good news... a little too good. I'll hold judgment on these charges until after the trial.

If he's guilty: He's a despicable man and should be punished. Doesn't matter what his religion is.

Now, outside of those sorts of thing, I generally do not have a high opinion of TV preachers like him.

But, no it doesn't affect my feelings about religion much. Those are pretty well set.

earl
09-28-2010, 04:45 PM
Look at most Mega churchs where the pastor ,leadership and congregation hold only themselves responsible . Poor example but Baptist vs Catholic.
Money and prestige trump every thing . Pastors cannot control money . Simple as that . A snake oil salesman at heart . Some are smart enough not to get caught . The ones that do pull a Swaggart or Haggard confession and start all over . And the people are stupid enough to support them again.

One more nail in the coffin.

possum steak
09-28-2010, 10:54 PM
To all the above posters, good job & very very fair.

VisionCasting
09-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the candor. Pretty CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreding indictment - your perception of Christians, that is. This is what I hear you saying: Christians are self-righteous & hypocritical.

I am really pretty confused about @Dexrusjak's comment though. That Christians think they are the only ones capable of doing good b/c of the Holy Spirit. Although I am a Christian, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Christians don't have the market on morality cornered. It's just not anywhere in the Bible. I know plenty of non-Christians that are very soundly morally aligned and plenty of "avowed" Christians that I view as 'relativistic'.

pnome
09-29-2010, 11:52 AM
This is what I hear you saying: Christians are self-righteous & hypocritical.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Some Christians are like that, in the same way that some atheists are. This guy, if guilty, certainly is a hypocrite. But that is not an indictment of his professed religion.

VisionCasting
09-29-2010, 12:15 PM
That's not what I'm saying at all.

Some Christians are like that, in the same way that some atheists are. This guy, if guilty, certainly is a hypocrite. But that is not an indictment of his professed religion.

Got it. So is it more safe to say that from an Athiest's viewpoint Christians and non-Christians are just about the same? Some good, some bad?

dexrusjak
09-29-2010, 12:17 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the candor. Pretty CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreding indictment - your perception of Christians, that is. This is what I hear you saying: Christians are self-righteous & hypocritical.

I am really pretty confused about @Dexrusjak's comment though. That Christians think they are the only ones capable of doing good b/c of the Holy Spirit. Although I am a Christian, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Christians don't have the market on morality cornered. It's just not anywhere in the Bible. I know plenty of non-Christians that are very soundly morally aligned and plenty of "avowed" Christians that I view as 'relativistic'.

The Christian thought process to which I referred goes something like this...

1. No one is righteous.
2. No one is good but god.
3. Therefore, good can only be done by god.
4. God indwells believers through the Holy Spirit.
5. Believers do good through the Holy Spirit.

If you believe that nonChristians can do good apart from the Holy Spirit, then you must account for scriptures such as Romans 3:10-13, Isaiah 64: 6, and Luke 18:19.

dexrusjak
09-29-2010, 12:17 PM
Got it. So is it more safe to say that from an Athiest's viewpoint Christians and non-Christians are just about the same? Some good, some bad?

From a morality standpoint, yes.

VisionCasting
09-29-2010, 12:33 PM
The Christian thought process to which I referred goes something like this...

1. No one is righteous.
2. No one is good but god.
3. Therefore, good can only be done by god.
4. God indwells believers through the Holy Spirit.
5. Believers do good through the Holy Spirit.

If you believe that nonChristians can do good apart from the Holy Spirit, then you must account for scriptures such as Romans 3:10-13, Isaiah 64: 6, and Luke 18:19.

I see the logic train, it's just flawed at #3. There is no exclusivity offered; only inclusivity - all humanity is included in this category of "less good than God" (i.e. not "righteous").

I guess that just supports the idea that at a base level, the Athiest thought is that there is no difference between Christians and non-Christians.

Thanks guys, this has been really helpful to me.

Six million dollar ham
09-29-2010, 01:53 PM
This is what I hear you saying: Christians are self-righteous & hypocritical.

I don't see how you'd get that from the above posts. The way you've typed it, "all Christians" is implied instead of "some Christians".

That Christians think they are the only ones capable of doing good b/c of the Holy Spirit.

Closely related, but apparently anything that is not Christian is evil by default, according to some around here. (mash (http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5308996#poststop))

mickbear
09-29-2010, 03:14 PM
i wonder "per captia" where preachers falls on the list of sexual freaks as compaired to the general population.it seams that everytime you trun around you hear of another preacher or religious leader of some sort messing around with some kid or cheating on their wife,stealing Ect...there arn't that many perachers compaired to the whole population of the US.and these people are the ones that christians look to for guidence?

ambush80
09-29-2010, 03:29 PM
My thinking is that deviants are particularly drawn to religion because of their guilt. I have heard sooooooooo many stories from religious zealots about how "I was addicted to such and such" or "I was a pervert" or "I had impure thought about people of my own sex". In these cases, I'm almost glad that that they got religion. Unfortunately, the baggage that goes along with religion, and the jerks that they turn into, sometimes off set the cure. I would have preferred that they just bucked up and either learned to accept themselves or sought medical help.

pnome
09-29-2010, 04:31 PM
i wonder "per captia" where preachers falls on the list of sexual freaks as compaired to the general population.

I think a better metric would be: Per capita sexual offenders who are in roles of Authority / positions of trust.

Preachers, Cops, Judges, Prison Guards, Teachers, etc....

I don't think religion matters here. I think it's the ease of using one's position to gain access to victims.