So I dedicated my daughter yesterday....

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

So I dedicated my daughter yesterday, not willingly, but it was her mothers wish, and it was mothers day. I did the same thing last year with my son, agian mothers day. I went through the motions saying "I will", ever meaning "Not as long as there is breath in my lungs".

Growing up catholic I'd say dedication and catholic baptism are very similar. They both involve a child that is too young to understand (most of the time), and ask of the parent/guardians a promise to raise them according to the churchs beliefs. I have no such desire to do so. My children will be taught to question everything and seek their own answers. If that leads them to the church so be it.

Again sitting through a baptist sermon is a trial of any logical answer seeking individual. If you listen, and can't help ask why, how come, what for, to what end, and so on it will drive you mad. For example, what little I heard of the sermon yesterday (my son got restless and I got to excuse myself and go outside and play :clap:

) the preacher was talking about mother Mary (of course). The underlining message was when god was looking for a suitable mother for Jesus, he chose Mary, becuase she was a completely obedient servant. He goes on to say that we should all strive to be this way. Now I do not claim to be a genius scholar or anything but I do know one word that easily describes a completly obedient and submissive person that never questions their master. SLAVE. So why would an all powerful, all loving, and all knowing individual, that gave us the ability to question, and the free will to do so, want only slaves to worship it? Or better yet, find the most submissive of slaves the most suitable servants?

The more I listen, the more I promise to raise my children without the influences of a religious institution.

Havana Dude · May 9, 2011

Prayers for your wife and children......and you as well.

ambush80 · May 9, 2011

TheBishop said:
So I dedicated my daughter yesterday, not willingly, but it was her mothers wish, and it was mothers day. I did the same thing last year with my son, agian mothers day. I went through the motions saying "I will", ever meaning "Not as long as there is breath in my lungs".

Growing up catholic I'd say dedication and catholic baptism are very similar. They both involve a child that is too young to understand (most of the time), and ask of the parent/guardians a promise to raise them according to the churchs beliefs. I have no such desire to do so. My children will be taught to question everything and seek their own answers. If that leads them to the church so be it.

Again sitting through a baptist sermon is a trial of any logical answer seeking individual. If you listen, and can't help ask why, how come, what for, to what end, and so on it will drive you mad. For example, what little I heard of the sermon yesterday (my son got restless and I got to excuse myself and go outside and play ) the preacher was talking about mother Mary (of course). The underlining message was when god was looking for a suitable mother for Jesus, he chose Mary, becuase she was a completely obedient servant. He goes on to say that we should all strive to be this way. Now I do not claim to be a genius scholar or anything but I do know one word that easily describes a completly obedient and submissive person that never questions their master. SLAVE. So why would an all powerful, all loving, and all knowing individual, that gave us the ability to question, and the free will to do so, want only slaves to worship it? Or better yet, find the most submissive of slaves the most suitable servants?

The more I listen, the more I promise to raise my children without the influences of a religious institution.

Actually, what followers strive to be is sheep, from what I understand.

TripleXBullies · May 9, 2011

I went to a baptist church for 19 years or so with my family and even without. My dad used to beat it in to my head as a structural engineer, "USE YOUR BRAIN!" I'd say I am now, and he's not...

My wife wanted to start taking our daughter to church... where they are teaching her that god made her... But my wife insists to her that SHE MADE HER.. Which she did. It's biology... proven science. She asked what to do... I said stop taking her to the brainwashing station...

stringmusic · May 9, 2011

TheBishop said:
So I dedicated my daughter yesterday, not willingly, but it was her mothers wish, and it was mothers day. I did the same thing last year with my son, agian mothers day. I went through the motions saying "I will", ever meaning "Not as long as there is breath in my lungs".

Growing up catholic I'd say dedication and catholic baptism are very similar. They both involve a child that is too young to understand (most of the time), and ask of the parent/guardians a promise to raise them according to the churchs beliefs. I have no such desire to do so. My children will be taught to question everything and seek their own answers. If that leads them to the church so be it.

Again sitting through a baptist sermon is a trial of any logical answer seeking individual. If you listen, and can't help ask why, how come, what for, to what end, and so on it will drive you mad. For example, what little I heard of the sermon yesterday (my son got restless and I got to excuse myself and go outside and play ) the preacher was talking about mother Mary (of course). The underlining message was when god was looking for a suitable mother for Jesus, he chose Mary, becuase she was a completely obedient servant. He goes on to say that we should all strive to be this way. Now I do not claim to be a genius scholar or anything but I do know one word that easily describes a completly obedient and submissive person that never questions their master. SLAVE. So why would an all powerful, all loving, and all knowing individual, that gave us the ability to question, and the free will to do so, want only slaves to worship it? Or better yet, find the most submissive of slaves the most suitable servants? The more I listen, the more I promise to raise my children without the influences of a religious institution.

ambush80 said:
Actually, what followers strive to be is sheep, from what I understand.

The more I see post like these the more I see that most of the A/A guys have no idea.

stringmusic · May 9, 2011

TripleXBullies said:
I went to a baptist church for 19 years or so with my family and even without. My dad used to beat it in to my head, "USE YOUR BRAIN!" I'd say I am now, and he's not...

My wife wanted to start taking our daughter to church... where they are teaching her that god made her... But my wife insists to her that SHE MAD HER.. Which she did. It's biology... proven science. She asked what to do... I said stop taking her to the brainwashing station...

It's not quite that easy.

TripleXBullies · May 9, 2011

You're right, she needed my help.

TripleXBullies · May 9, 2011

stringmusic said:
The more I see post like these the more I see that most of the A/A guys have know idea.

To have an idea would be to type that the A/A guys have NO idea.... It's true, that we know our ideas. Thanks.

Huntinfool · May 9, 2011

TheBishop said:
So why would an all powerful, all loving, and all knowing individual, that gave us the ability to question, and the free will to do so, want only slaves to worship it? Or better yet, find the most submissive of slaves the most suitable servants?

The more I listen, the more I promise to raise my children without the influences of a religious institution.

So...

We work under the assumptions that you have put forth. "all powerful, all loving, all knowing"

And, quite honestly, I don't know why it's such a hard question to answer.

Let me ask you this. Do you demand obedience from your children even when they don't "think" that what you're telling them to do is for the best/in their best interest/because you know better than they do? I would assume the answer is yes because that's what 99.9% of all good parents do regardless of religious affiliation.

If the answer to the question is "yes" and we work under your assumption that God (were he to exist) is, indeed all powerful, all loving and all knowing...it follows that what he does for us and the obedience that he demands is because he loves us, because he knows what's best for us and because he knows best even when our short-sightedness tells us differently...does it not? He's more powerful than us. He knows all (i.e. more than us) and he can see a bigger picture than we can. Why would we not trust him?

Here's the bottom line. I'm sure you'll shoot holes in this because clearly your mind is made up. I'm not sure why I'm trying to convince you. But your question had a VERY logical answer in my mind. I'm actually kind of insulted that you would imply essentially that you have to not be logical or, in essence, "smart" to believe in God and to follow him.

Pretty simple to me. I'm sure you disagree.

stringmusic · May 9, 2011

TripleXBullies said:
To have an idea would be to type that the A/A guys have NO idea.... It's true, that we know our ideas. Thanks.

.... your right, thats what I get for typing fast at work, Ill change it!

Dr. Strangelove · May 9, 2011

TheBishop said:
So I dedicated my daughter yesterday, not willingly, but it was her mothers wish, and it was mothers day. I did the same thing last year with my son, agian mothers day. I went through the motions saying "I will", ever meaning "Not as long as there is breath in my lungs".

Growing up catholic I'd say dedication and catholic baptism are very similar. They both involve a child that is too young to understand (most of the time), and ask of the parent/guardians a promise to raise them according to the churchs beliefs. I have no such desire to do so. My children will be taught to question everything and seek their own answers. If that leads them to the church so be it.

Again sitting through a baptist sermon is a trial of any logical answer seeking individual. If you listen, and can't help ask why, how come, what for, to what end, and so on it will drive you mad. For example, what little I heard of the sermon yesterday (my son got restless and I got to excuse myself and go outside and play ) the preacher was talking about mother Mary (of course). The underlining message was when god was looking for a suitable mother for Jesus, he chose Mary, becuase she was a completely obedient servant. He goes on to say that we should all strive to be this way. Now I do not claim to be a genius scholar or anything but I do know one word that easily describes a completly obedient and submissive person that never questions their master. SLAVE. So why would an all powerful, all loving, and all knowing individual, that gave us the ability to question, and the free will to do so, want only slaves to worship it? Or better yet, find the most submissive of slaves the most suitable servants?

The more I listen, the more I promise to raise my children without the influences of a religious institution.

This is one of the most thoughtful and intelligent posts I've read on this forum. Sounds like you're raising them right!

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

Huntinfool said:
Let me ask you this. Do you demand obedience from your children even when they don't "think" that what you're telling them to do is for the best/in their best interest/because you know better than they do? I would assume the answer is yes because that's what 99.9% of all good parents do regardless of religious affiliation.

My children are young so I demand very little of them, obedience is not amongst them nor will it be. As a matter of fact I will not demand anything of my children . Hopefully I will earn their love, respect, and trust. I hope they will do as I say for the fact they love and respect me and trust me to steer them in the right direction. If I have those bonds I will not need obedience. Obedience is what you teach your dog that cannot think for itself, agian more slave than follower. Obedience requires no thought, or rational, therefore is useless when preparing a child for the real world. Any good parent would know that.

If the answer to the question is "yes" and we work under your assumption that God (were he to exist) is, indeed all powerful, all loving and all knowing...it follows that what he does for us and the obedience that he demands is because he loves us, because he knows what's best for us and because he knows best even when our short-sightedness tells us differently...does it not? He's more powerful than us. He knows all (i.e. more than us) and he can see a bigger picture than we can. Why would we not trust him?

I cannot trust something that is willing to let those suffer just for the sake of suffering. If he was all powerful, all knowing, and all loving and still allowed the suffering he is not worthy of my worship.

Here's the bottom line. I'm sure you'll shoot holes in this because clearly your mind is made up. I'm not sure why I'm trying to convince you. But your question had a VERY logical answer in my mind. I'm actually kind of insulted that you would imply essentially that you have to not be logical or, in essence, "smart" to believe in God and to follow him.

There is strong evidence that supports the link between intelligence and religious belief.

Huntinfool · May 9, 2011

As a matter of fact I will not demand anything of my children . Hopefully I will earn their love, respect, and trust. I hope they will do as I say for the fact they love and respect me and trust me to steer them in the right direction. If I have those bonds I will not need obedience.

Oh brother. Let me know how that works out for you. I can only assume that you have very little children. Do you think that to earn their respect you have to let them "run free"? Is it not possible to raise them with discipline and still be respected? Have you given thought to what you'll do when they get older and you've not earned their respect? What then? How will you deal with them?

What is your role as their father if you demand nothing of them? Food provider?

Obedience requires no thought, or rational, therefore is useless when preparing a child for the real world. Any good parent would know that.

It's called training. Children are not born with the ability to make proper decisions. Someone must teach them. But we disagree on the usefulness of training. So I won't take it any further. You don't get it.

I cannot trust something that is willing to let those suffer just for the sake of suffering. If he was all powerful, all knowing, and all loving and still allowed the suffering he is not worthy of my worship.

Again, we need to end the conversation here. I figured as much. You say suffering for the sake of suffering. I differ.

There is strong evidence that supports the link between intelligence and religious belief.

There are stupid athiests and there are stupid Christians. You won't get argument from me. Please do not imply, though, that I must abandon logic to believe in God. It's insulting.

Huntinfool · May 9, 2011

I do have one more question for you and I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, so forgive me.

Do you think it hypocritical to have allowed that dedication or to have even participate in it (assuming you don't consider yourself the leader of your house)?

Does that bother you at any level? Do you think that helps to contribute to your children respecting you? You verbally made vows that you have no intention of keeping. Do you think that makes your children inclined to respect?

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

Huntinfool said:
Oh brother. Let me know how that works out for you. I can only assume that you have very little children. Do you think that to earn their respect you have to let them "run free"? Is it not possible to raise them with discipline and still be respected? Have you given thought to what you'll do when they get older and you've not earned their respect? What then? How will you deal with them?

You do not need obedience to get respect, but you can use discipline to get respect. You can use discipline to get obedience and you can have obedience without respect. I will/have use/used discipline to gain respect. I never said anything about discipline. We were talking about DEMANDING OBEDIENCE. Big difference. I will never ask/tell/demand my children to do anything out of blind adherence without reason. If I ask them not to do something I tell them why. An obedient child complies out of fear, a respectful child complies willingly, as not to disappoint. I prefer the latter if you the former I pity your children. I would wager you will be the one suffering from lack of respect when they come to the age with ability to reason. If I have failed to earn their respect by the time their that age them I will place the blame soley on my self, but I feel demanding obedience (speaking from experience) will do more harm than good.

What is your role as their father if you demand nothing of them? Food provider?

Teacher, provider, friend, comforter, philosopher, mentor, ect.......... not slave owner.

It's called training. Children are not born with the ability to make proper decisions. Someone must teach them. But we disagree on the usefulness of training. So I won't take it any further. You don't get it.

We do not disagree that training is usefull. No were in my posts can you find that. We disagree on the methods of training. Big difference. That something that you don't get.

There are stupid athiests and there are stupid Christians.

True.

You won't get argument from me. Please do not imply, though, that I must abandon logic to believe in God. It's insulting.

Never implied that. I too beleive in a higher power(yet undefined). I simply stated the facts. The facts are (according to the study of Helmuth Nyborg) there is a correlation between level of religious belief and intelligence. The more religious the lower the I.Q. . I didn't make this up.

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

Huntinfool said:
I do have one more question for you and I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, so forgive me.

No need I can handle it.

Do you think it hypocritical to have allowed that dedication or to have even participate in it (assuming you don't consider yourself the leader of your house)?

Wow. Good one appeal to my man hood. I don't consider myself the supreme leader of my household. My wife is strong willed, thats why I love her. I make tuogh decisions when I have too and appease when I have too. It's called compromise. Thats what make marriages last. It would only be hypocritical if I didn't beleive in what I was doing. I was appeasing my wife and that is all.

Does that bother you at any level? Do you think that helps to contribute to your children respecting you? You verbally made vows that you have no intention of keeping. Do you think that makes your children inclined to respect?

Yes it bothers me a little. One, my wife clings to her childhood beliefs, it makes her happy and I can live with it. She never has thought on my level so I do not expect her to change, agian I can live with it.

Its a meaningless ritual, that I compromised to allow my wife to do, even though I did not like it. My kids though to young to understand, or even remember, will hopefully look at it like this: In a relationship you have do things you do not like, or beleive, to make them work. My wife knows I do not beleive, but wants me to participate any ways. I comply becuase I love her. I believe they would have respected that more than making her stand in front of the congregation without her husband.

Huntinfool · May 9, 2011

So two more questions.

Do you think that a three year old will consistently obey you because he respects you?

What do you thinkyour kids will think when you make a vow to them (let's just assume they were old enough to understand what you did Sunday)? Will they assume you're serious about the vow you made or will they think you were just appeasing them...because you love them.

Did you tell your wife that you didn't mean what you said?

Ok three questions. My bad.

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

Huntinfool said:
Do you think that a three year old will consistently obey you because he respects you?

No matter what you do a three year old does not do anything consistenly. But I do not want them to fear me.

What do you thinkyour kids will think when you make a vow to them (let's just assume they were old enough to understand what you did Sunday)? Will they assume you're serious about the vow you made or will they think you were just appeasing them...because you love them.

Thats where the whole love, trust, and respect comes into play. I did not beak any vow to anyone I loved or respected. Not adhereing to the ritual holds no water for them determining wether they can trust me. I'll let the years of raising them be a foundation for that.

Did you tell your wife that you didn't mean what you said?

She knew before she asked. But then again if read my post you would see I already answered those.

JFS · May 9, 2011

TheBishop said:
Its a meaningless ritual, that I compromised to allow my wife to do, even though I did not like it. My kids though to young to understand, or even remember, will hopefully look at it like this: In a relationship you have do things you do not like, or beleive, to make them work. My wife knows I do not beleive, but wants me to participate any ways. I comply becuase I love her. I believe they would have respected that more than making her stand in front of the congregation without her husband.

I'm right there with you. At least I was. I did the same things you did, but now my daughter is 13 and wants to get confirmed in the church my wife has been taking her. Which I guess would be OK if I thought she had really thought it through and decided things for herself, but like 90%+ of kids that go through that I think she is just going the way her bible thumping relatives have been pushing her for years. So at this point I have to ask myself about conciliation and compromise versus what I view as my obligation as a parent to educate my child. At what point do I risk jeopardizing family harmony and in fact totally alienating the in-laws by pushing for some reason and making sure she has the opportunity to think about these issues in a framework that doesn't assume one (wrong) answer.

TheBishop · May 9, 2011

JFS said:
I'm right there with you. At least I was. I did the same things you did, but now my daughter is 13 and wants to get confirmed in the church my wife has been taking her. Which I guess would be OK if I thought she had really thought it through and decided things for herself, but like 90%+ of kids that go through that I think she is just going the way her bible thumping relatives have been pushing her for years. So at this point I have to ask myself about conciliation and compromise versus what I view as my obligation as a parent to educate my child. At what point do I risk jeopardizing family harmony and in fact totally alienating the in-laws by pushing for some reason and making sure she has the opportunity to think about these issues in a framework that doesn't assume one (wrong) answer.

Let her do it. She is young like you were once. Hopefully she will wake up one day and go...really? Like you did. I got confirmed and all that but reason opened my eyes. I think you might do more harm holding her back from something she wants to do. She is not yet old enough to have the mindset to choose for herself, but she is young enough her mind will change again. Hopefully wioth your guidance you can let her "go" and she will come back to reason and you don't alienate anyone.

So I dedicated my daughter yesterday....

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Similar threads

Share this page