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Jody Hawk
08-21-2011, 10:03 AM
This is kinda a spinoff to the other funeral thread. I've been to funerals where the preacher says the deceased is in heaven now. All the while I'm thinking this person never lived a christian life and the preacher never even knew him. Who is he to say whether or not this deceased person went on to heaven? :huh:

1gr8bldr
08-21-2011, 11:56 AM
I see it often also. I think it's an effort to comfort the family. I sure don't expect them to say the opposite. I would personally let all the air out of his tires for that

1gr8bldr
08-21-2011, 12:04 PM
I guess the real question is; can you be saved on your death bed? Are these confessions real? Are they sincere? Knowing that some may be and some may not be, what are the percentages expected? Have they accepted the doctrine of the church such as the trinity or did they accept that Jesus was God's son who died for them? The last one I mentioned gets me. I know so many times when a preacher will claim that if you don't believe in the trinity then your going to helll but then will tell someone on their death bed that Jesus died for their sins and then at the funneral wil stroke his ego with how he saved that dying man. Go figure

CAL
08-21-2011, 12:26 PM
Who is he to say whether or not this deceased person went on to heaven? :huh:

By the same respect,who is he to say the deceased did not go to heaven?With all due respect Jody,like you I wonder too but do we ever really know a persons relationship with his maker.Even the very worst can be saved,remember the thief on the cross?

Jody Hawk
08-21-2011, 12:45 PM
By the same respect,who is he to say the deceased did not go to heaven?With all due respect Jody,like you I wonder too but do we ever really know a persons relationship with his maker.Even the very worst can be saved,remember the thief on the cross?

While I agree that we shouldn't judge, I also think a preacher shouldn't assume someone they never knew is in heaven. If they are using that line to comfort the family, wouldn't that be a lie?

GA DAWG
08-21-2011, 01:07 PM
I don't know bout yall but where I come from. We usually don't have preachers preaching folks funerals that don't know em. Ain't like you put a wanted ad in the paper.

CAL
08-21-2011, 01:17 PM
I don't know bout yall but where I come from. We usually don't have preachers preaching folks funerals that don't know em. Ain't like you put a wanted ad in the paper.

I understand and around here we often times have people to come home to be buried rather than somewhere else.Most times the preacher that does not know the individual will read appropriate scripture and that is all.But we all like to think everyone goes to heaven,I do anyway.

Jody Hawk
08-21-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't know bout yall but where I come from. We usually don't have preachers preaching folks funerals that don't know em. Ain't like you put a wanted ad in the paper.

Well, there's folks everywhere that don't go to church and know any preachers. Uncle Joe died and he never attended church in his life. What do y'all do then, cover him up and say Amen? :D

CAL
08-21-2011, 03:03 PM
Well, there's folks everywhere that don't go to church and know any preachers. Uncle Joe died and he never attended church in his life. What do y'all do then, cover him up and say Amen? :D

Around here the preacher would talk to the family and get information about Uncle Joe's life and speak of the finer things he did to help others and his neighbors.Read the appropriate scripture,and have a prayer.:cool:
I would bet your Uncle Joe came from the old crowd who's word was his bond,didn't want to offend anyone but neither did he wish to be offended either.Probably one of the pillars of the community too.What say you?

StriperAddict
08-21-2011, 03:08 PM
CAL, I'd say salt of the earth folk come in all shapes/sizes and sometimes got grace comin' out of their pores, but maybe not their mouths

;)

CAL
08-21-2011, 03:39 PM
CAL, I'd say salt of the earth folk come in all shapes/sizes and sometimes got grace comin' out of their pores, but maybe not their mouths

;)

I agree Striper,excellent comment,excellent!:fine:

Michael F. Gray
08-21-2011, 04:24 PM
Several good issues here. First, can you be saved on your death bed? I'll remind you two thieves were crucified on either side of Jesus. One humbled himself and asked the Lord to remember him after pointing out he was aware Jesus had committed no offense. Christ plainly told that thief, "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." I would suggest a man nailed to a tree is about as "deathbed" as it gets. Secondly, you mentioned the departed being "preached into heaven." I never do this apart from knowing the personal testimony of the deceased. The Word of God tells us plainly, "The death of his saints is precious to the Lord." If I don't know the departed I can't change his eternal destination. Whether it was heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- was determined when the final breath was taken, and that soul was summoned before it's creator. The credibility of God's servant rests surely on his truthfullness. Our words should be measured carefully. We will give account for all spoken.

huntmore
08-22-2011, 10:01 AM
We had a family friend die. He had never gone to church much if at all. If he was a Christian we never knew it. When he died we went to the funeral and the preacher (who didn't know him) refered to him as a saint.
When we got in the car my mom said she didn't like it when the preacher said he was a saint. She also said the word saint better not be used to discribe her at her funeral.

Huntinfool
08-22-2011, 10:50 AM
I think about this a lot and in very specific terms.

I had a very good friend in highschool. We were very close and I'm sad even now thinking about him. He introduced me to the drums. We used to go over to each other's houses an play for hours, record solos and do all kinds of stupid drum stuff together.

We drifted apart after highschool and he got into some very bad stuff. About 5 years ago, I got a call from a buddy who told me to go check the obits in the AJC.

The he was. My old buddy Ryan. He ended up deep in drugs and other trouble and eventually got to a place where he apparently shot himself in the face and died.

At his funeral the priest (catholic funeral) spoke highly of him and how he was at peace now and he's with the Father, etc etc.


They had to bring him in in a little box because he had to be cremated....it was that bad.

I couldn't help but think...this entire funeral is a lie. I loved Ryan dearly. I play a little riff every time I sit down at the drums that he and I made up together. Sort of a tribute.

But he died as an unbliever, living the life as an unbeliever and he is not in heaven. It grieves me to say that. But it's the truth.

I wonder how many people might have been saved if that priest had had the guts to tell the truth at that funeral. I know the feelings of the family were saved that day. But I wonder what kind of damage was really done.

CAL
08-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Huntinfool,I clearly understand where you are coming from but there again.I like to think that just maybe there was a possibility that he surrendered himself to the Lord before killing himself.I have always believed we never really know anyone and hardly ourselves.For some reason we just think we know some people.We do know lots of things about people but never their relationship with their Lord.I am never surprised at what people do.

If the preacher had told what you seem to think was the truth?Most likely it would have been a turn off to the whole group at the funeral and nobody would have changed.I say this because this is just the way people are at funerals.People expect to hear nice comments no matter how rough a life someone lives.

huntmore
08-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Hf no one knows who is in heaven but God.

Randy
08-22-2011, 01:48 PM
I think like most pastors these pastors at funerals give people the benefit of doubt. According to my Baptist upbringing a person can be saved in early childhood (7,8,9 or so) and then go on to live a life of drugs, murder and other bad stuff and yet they go to Heaven. Once you are written down you cannot be removed no matter how bad you turn out. I personally have a little different belief but in the end it is still the same.

Jody Hawk
08-22-2011, 02:11 PM
I think about this a lot and in very specific terms.

I had a very good friend in highschool. We were very close and I'm sad even now thinking about him. He introduced me to the drums. We used to go over to each other's houses an play for hours, record solos and do all kinds of stupid drum stuff together.

We drifted apart after highschool and he got into some very bad stuff. About 5 years ago, I got a call from a buddy who told me to go check the obits in the AJC.

The he was. My old buddy Ryan. He ended up deep in drugs and other trouble and eventually got to a place where he apparently shot himself in the face and died.

At his funeral the priest (catholic funeral) spoke highly of him and how he was at peace now and he's with the Father, etc etc.


They had to bring him in in a little box because he had to be cremated....it was that bad.

I couldn't help but think...this entire funeral is a lie. I loved Ryan dearly. I play a little riff every time I sit down at the drums that he and I made up together. Sort of a tribute.

But he died as an unbliever, living the life as an unbeliever and he is not in heaven. It grieves me to say that. But it's the truth.

I wonder how many people might have been saved if that priest had had the guts to tell the truth at that funeral. I know the feelings of the family were saved that day. But I wonder what kind of damage was really done.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't know if the person I referred to ever asked Christ into his heart but I do know at one time he claimed there was no God. Then he died of a sudden death so there's no chance he was saved on his death bed. I just don't think it's right to assume anything and get up there telling the family their loved one is in heaven when you never knew him and don't have a clue as to whether or not he was a born again believer.

Huntinfool
08-22-2011, 02:32 PM
I like to think that just maybe there was a possibility that he surrendered himself to the Lord before killing himself.

Hf no one knows who is in heaven but God.

If he had an experience with God that brought him to saving faith and the holy spirit came into his life...it is not possible that he pulled that trigger immediately after.

I am sorry. It's not possible. The thief on the cross...his last act was to ask that he be included in the Kingdom and then he died. Ryan's last act was to put a gun to his own face and put a bullet in the temple of God. When God is truly experienced, he is life-altering. I do not believe there is biblical justification to say that you could come to a saving knowledge of him and then immediately kill yourself.

Otherwise, he had no hope...

and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
(Romans 5:5 ESV)

When God's love is poured into our hearts through the HS, we have a hope that does not disappoint. I would assume that if he cried out to God in that final hour it was because he was desperate for hope. Had he cried out, hope would have come and the bullet would not have left the chamber.

When the thief on the cross cried out to Jesus...he was looking for hope and he recieved it.

No one knows who is in heaven but God. You are correct. But I would say it is just as bad an injustice to assume someone is as that he isn't.

rjcruiser
08-22-2011, 02:37 PM
If he had an experience with God that brought him to saving faith...it is not possible that he pulled that trigger immediately after.

I am sorry. It's not possible.

No one knows who is in heaven but God. You are correct. But I would say it is just as bad an injustice to assume someone is as that he isn't.

Well put.

It is a sad state of preachers today that would rather smooth things over than preach the truth.

I guess that is why we have the churches we have today and the "christians" we have today as well.

Havana Dude
08-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Who's to say the family, or one member of the family didn't tell the preacher what they wanted to hear him say? All for the sake of the family?

Huntinfool
08-22-2011, 02:50 PM
...and does the preacher have a responsbility to preach what he knows (or believes) to be the truth or to spare the feelings of the family? That's the question I suppose.

Maybe it goes to the integrity of the one performing the funeral. I don't know.


Since this was a catholic funeral, I would assume that the priest said what he believes. Ryan grew up in the church and I assume he was confirmed (or whatever they do) when he was young. At that point, I think you're pretty much good to go. I'll be honest, I don't know the intricacies of the Catholic church. So forgive my ignorance.

But he likely believed that Ryan went through all the steps and so he was good with God.

CAL
08-22-2011, 03:02 PM
If he had an experience with God that brought him to saving faith and the holy spirit came into his life...it is not possible that he pulled that trigger immediately after.

I am sorry. It's not possible. The thief on the cross...his last act was to ask that he be included in the Kingdom and then he died. Ryan's last act was to put a gun to his own face and put a bullet in the temple of God. When God is truly experienced, he is life-altering. I do not believe there is biblical justification to say that you could come to a saving knowledge of him and then immediately kill yourself.

Otherwise, he had no hope...



When God's love is poured into our hearts through the HS, we have a hope that does not disappoint. I would assume that if he cried out to God in that final hour it was because he was desperate for hope. Had he cried out, hope would have come and the bullet would not have left the chamber.

When the thief on the cross cried out to Jesus...he was looking for hope and he recieved it.

No one knows who is in heaven but God. You are correct. But I would say it is just as bad an injustice to assume someone is as that he isn't.

I understand where you are coming from and see your thoughts.But this happened here where I live last year.A man I have known for many years who was in his 80's had bypass surgery and was home.I know he had had many things in his life that were quite dramatic to say the very least.What happened after the surgery to him mentally I could probably write a book about since I have had the same surgery but what I am getting to is this.
He went out to his storage building where he did various things.He sat down in a chair,wrote a note about his life and in the note said he was going to be with the Lord.He then killed himself!
Because a person didn't write a note explaining does not mean he didn't make his peace with the Lord.I personally think it is better to assume he did rather than judge he didn't.Peace!

CAL
08-22-2011, 03:13 PM
Who's to say the family, or one member of the family didn't tell the preacher what they wanted to hear him say? All for the sake of the family?
This happens many times around here.The preacher in fact always goes to the family with questions about the deceased life and questions about the service.

Funerals are for families anyway.I think it is just part of the morning process that has to take place.

huntmore
08-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Hf
You must have me confused with someone else. I didn't say anything about the guy making peace with God before he shot himself. I, like you, don't see how he could make peace and still shoot himself. I simply said you do not know who is in heaven and who isn't.

RJ
I don't think a Priest or preacher should lie during someones funeral. I guess since it is to late for the dead person the Preist or preacher could say something that he knows to be true that may be helpful to the family.
Then on Sunday preach about not being a christain.

jmharris23
08-22-2011, 06:50 PM
No offense here CAL but as a pastor I have always thought the best bet is not to assume anything. I have done a few funerals of people who died and had lived life with no visible fruit and no one in the family could assure me that they had ever been a disciple of Christ.

When this has been the case I have made no assumptions and rather spoke the plain and gentle truth.

That the Lord Jesus and He alone is the resurrection, the truth, and the life.

If a man made no proclamation of Christ in his life I certainly don't feel comfortable making one for him. So I NEVER do.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 06:40 AM
Cal,

I'm understanding of mental issues and unbalances and I quite honestly don't know what to do with that.

But I'll just say that we'll have to disagree. I cannot see biblically how one can claim he is abiding in Christ and then kill himself. Those two concepts are as far apart as the east is from the west.

If you abide in Christ, you would not think of doing that. I don't think it's possible.

Havana Dude
08-23-2011, 07:09 AM
Cal,

I'm understanding of mental issues and unbalances and I quite honestly don't know what to do with that.

But I'll just say that we'll have to disagree. I cannot see biblically how one can claim he is abiding in Christ and then kill himself. Those two concepts are as far apart as the east is from the west.

If you abide in Christ, you would not think of doing that. I don't think it's possible.

People who abide in Christ do all sorts of things that are wrong. Remember, we are sinners saved by grace.Those who abide in Christ commit adultery, murder, thievery, and any other sin you can imagine. I tend to agree with you that if a person has God in their heart, suicide should not be an option. SHOULD NOT. One SHOULD NOT murder either, but it happens. I can't go along with the absolute assumption that one cannot ask for forgiveness, be saved, and then turn around and commit suicide. There just is no evidence to prove that point. And to be fair, there is none to prove mine. JMHO.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 08:03 AM
Those who abide in Christ commit adultery, murder, thievery, and any other sin you can imagine.

Abide is the key word here. If you abide, you will bear fruit. Murder and suicide are not two of those options. I think we are often too loose with the term "abide".

I can't go along with the absolute assumption that one cannot ask for forgiveness, be saved, and then turn around and commit suicide.

What you're saying is that someone can ask forgiveness, have the Holy Spirit come into their life, experience the absolute JOY of salvation and forgiveness...and then immediately wreck the temple of God with a bullet to the face.

When it's worded that way...does that make any sense to you? It doesn't to me. We can disagree, and you're right...none of us knows 100% for certain. I'm just operating off of my biblical understanding (and experience) of what happens when Christ enters your life.

rjcruiser
08-23-2011, 08:12 AM
I'll disagree with the suicide thing HF.

When it comes to mental issues and health, I've seen it happen before. A man who was in love with the Lord and had the fruit to show it came down with some brain disease. It caused him to shut down. Over the course of a year or two, he completely changed....definitely was not himself and couldn't even take care of himself. One day, he ended his life.

I seriously doubt that he ended up in he!l. He was a loving husband and father before the disease hit him.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 08:19 AM
I said I'm understanding of mental issues. There has to be some kind of exception for being mentally ill and unable to command your own decisions.

I probably know who you're talking about. Likely he lived on my street. I agree with you.

What I'm getting at is those who are making the argument "well, what if he accepted Christ then shot himself in the face". The immediacy of the action is what I'm getting at.

In the case I'm talking about, Ryan clearly was not bearing fruit. So the only possibility is "well what if he..."

I'm making the case that THAT is not possible. If he was mentally ill, then was was equally unable to understand accepting Christ as he was to understand what that gun was about to do to him.

In your case, you have a man who exhibited a life lived for Christ with vineyards of fruit...who came down with a disease that left him unable to understand the consequences of what he did. Entirely different IMO. Does that make sense?

What I'm saying is that it is not possible to accept Christ and be filled with the Spirit and then immediately kill yourself. I don't buy it.

JB0704
08-23-2011, 08:30 AM
HF, do you believe salvation is permanent? The reason I ask is that an individual can make a decision, then walk away into all sorts of nonsense. Besides, there is a lot of variable opinions out there on the who goes to heaven and who doesn't, I don't think anybody can make that call for anybody else.

On topic, one of my best friends and hunting buddy of the last 15 yrs. died this spring in a car wreck. He was a believer when he was young, but months before the wreck he told me he wasn't sure. At his memorial service the preacher said he was in heaven. I have no problem with that. This will be my first bow season opener alone for as long as I can remember, and I like to think my buddy is out there somewhere helping me scout a good spot. The nonbelievers call it nonsense, but it gives me peace and that's what matters to me.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 08:35 AM
I don't know what happened to your buddy. I don't know if salvation is permanent in the "once saved always saved" common understanding.

I grew up Methodist and was taught that yes, you can walk away and lose it. That is still an issue that I struggle with. I lean toward questioning the validity of the faith in the first place. A true experience with Christ is so overwhelming, I don't know how you can walk away from it.

But I'll admit...I don't know.

rjcruiser
08-23-2011, 08:52 AM
I probably know who you're talking about. Likely he lived on my street. I agree with you.

I gotcha....nope I doubt you know him.

He lived out in Cali.



JB...I understand you position as well. I know that there have been times where I've questioned my faith. Low points...times where I've been struggling. I think it is common for people to question at one time or another. Key is, life is a race. We gotta finish strong. I think that sometimes the Lord takes us home to be with him to save us from future struggles.

May you have a great bow opener and shoot that big one your friend steers in your direction.:cool:

JB0704
08-23-2011, 08:57 AM
May you have a great bow opener and shoot that big one your friend steers in your direction.:cool:

....thanks man. It's gonna be a tough day, everybody has traditions, and the bow opener was our "redneck Christmas," we never missed it and spent months getting ready for it.

CAL
08-23-2011, 09:35 AM
People who abide in Christ do all sorts of things that are wrong. Remember, we are sinners saved by grace.Those who abide in Christ commit adultery, murder, thievery, and any other sin you can imagine. I tend to agree with you that if a person has God in their heart, suicide should not be an option. SHOULD NOT. One SHOULD NOT murder either, but it happens. I can't go along with the absolute assumption that one cannot ask for forgiveness, be saved, and then turn around and commit suicide. There just is no evidence to prove that point. And to be fair, there is none to prove mine. JMHO.

Yes and I have to agree with you.Many times we all make decisions about things simply based on one's belief.Unknowing of the person and that persons relationship with his Lord.My post about the man committing suicide is just that,a post.I have no way of knowing where he went or is going.I can only say what he wrote and did.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 09:44 AM
I gotcha....nope I doubt you know him.

He lived out in Cali.

10-4. there was a guy who lived on our street. Very similar story. Committed to Christ and strong family man. Then brain cancer ravaged him and he did ended it. I don't know. Terrible thing that happened. I don't know how that family moved forward.

Havana Dude
08-23-2011, 11:39 AM
Blanket statement here...................I am gonna go out on a limb here, and say every suicidal person, has SOME amount of mental issues. I don't think anyone just gets out of bed in the morning, has his coffee, read the paper, eat breakfast, and then think about what he is gonna do today, and then come up with the bright idea to send a bullet through his head. It just don't happen that way. There has to be some underlying issues, somewhere.

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Issues, yes....illness, not necessarily. But I get where you're coming from. I would just say that it would be that same "issue" that would prevent you from understanding accepting Christ in that very same moment. But I think we're arguing semantics.

Miguel Cervantes
08-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Well, there's folks everywhere that don't go to church and know any preachers. Uncle Joe died and he never attended church in his life. What do y'all do then, cover him up and say Amen? :D

So a man that never went to church can't possibly go to heaven?

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 12:21 PM
So a man that never went to church can't possibly go to heaven?

I think he meant that his uncle didn't exhibit any traits of a Christian...one being fellowship with the body.

You cannot love Christ and hate his bride. But there's already been a thread on that.

dawg2
08-23-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't know what happened to your buddy. I don't know if salvation is permanent in the "once saved always saved" common understanding.

I grew up Methodist and was taught that yes, you can walk away and lose it. That is still an issue that I struggle with. I lean toward questioning the validity of the faith in the first place. A true experience with Christ is so overwhelming, I don't know how you can walk away from it.But I'll admit...I don't know.

Why can't you?

Peter did it three times and he physically walked with Christ.

Judas did it as well and turned him over and he walked with Christ as well.

If someone who physically, lived, ate, drank, and walked with someone in person could do it, then surely anyone who relies on "faith alone" could do it.

The right answer is "You do not know."

Huntinfool
08-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Peter did it three times and he physcially walked with Christ.

Peter did not walk away from his faith in Christ three times.

I said "I don't know" three times in that one post. How did you miss that?

I'm inclined to say that a true experience with Christ is so overwhelming that it is not possible to walk away when you abide in him.

Judas walked (physically) with Christ. But he did not walk (spiritually) with him in my view. He was part of the 12 for a specific purpose.

If you want to go down the road with the apostles...they all failed at one time or another. It does not mean they walked away from faith in him.

rjcruiser
08-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Why can't you?

Why would God save you only to turn you back over to sin?

Okay...we can agree to disagree on this issue along with the few others we have;) :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Ronnie T
08-23-2011, 04:18 PM
I'll disagree with the suicide thing HF.

When it comes to mental issues and health, I've seen it happen before. A man who was in love with the Lord and had the fruit to show it came down with some brain disease. It caused him to shut down. Over the course of a year or two, he completely changed....definitely was not himself and couldn't even take care of himself. One day, he ended his life.

I seriously doubt that he ended up in he!l. He was a loving husband and father before the disease hit him.

I agree. The brain is a very complicated thing. It gets sick just like every other organ.
One can never tell what's happening in the brain of an individual. It's the unknown.

Ronnie T
08-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Why would God save you only to turn you back over to sin?

Okay...we can agree to disagree on this issue along with the few others we have;) :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Or, worded a little differently, Romans 6, Why would you accept new life in Christ only to return living in the old ways of life?

Guyes, I guess we got all the questions, and it'll all come together as God brings it.

Crubear
08-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Saying something to comfort a greiving family isn't a bad thing.

If the preacher believes that you go to judgement (in heaven?) and you go now, then they're not lying.

Each of us will meet our Judge, you can argue the when all you want, but you will get there at some point.

As far as being called a saint? Hope someone does! As I was taught, the word saint was used to describe the early followers of Jesus (after the crucifiction). It was eventually replaced when someone coined the word Christian.

Bama4me
08-25-2011, 09:09 PM
I don't know if the person I referred to ever asked Christ into his heart but I do know at one time he claimed there was no God. .

Not trying to be cute when I ask it, but what does asking Christ into his heart do to change his eternal destination according to New Testament Scripture?

Concerning the observation in the original post in this thread, I personally don't think it's ever justified telling other people "so and so is in heaven today." Ultimately, we don't know another person's heart... and Matthew 6 and Matthew 23 clearly indicate that people can appear righteous in an outward manner but be completely rotten inside. I think my preacher often says, "because this person was a Christian, he/she died with a hope of heaven."

mtnwoman
08-25-2011, 10:14 PM
I'll disagree with the suicide thing HF.

When it comes to mental issues and health, I've seen it happen before. A man who was in love with the Lord and had the fruit to show it came down with some brain disease. It caused him to shut down. Over the course of a year or two, he completely changed....definitely was not himself and couldn't even take care of himself. One day, he ended his life.

I seriously doubt that he ended up in he!l. He was a loving husband and father before the disease hit him.

I agree....from experience. There is something wrong mentally if you're willing to take your own life.