When is the body given it's soul?

Phil's abortion vote got me to wondering, when is a baby given it's soul?

The Jewish view is that a baby is not given it's soul until it is born and takes it's first breath of life... as God breathed the soul into Adam after his creation.

I will not 'debate' this topic, I only ask for amicable discussion, and am truly interested in your opinions and why.

Dixie Dawg said:

Phil's abortion vote got me to wondering, when is a baby given it's soul?

The Jewish view is that a baby is not given it's soul until it is born and takes it's first breath of life... as God breathed the soul into Adam after his creation.

I will not 'debate' this topic, I only ask for amicable discussion, and am truly interested in your opinions and why.

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The soul exists prior to and after the body's existence. The body is nothing more than a vessel on it's best day, so to answer your question, the baby always has it's soul. From the moment of conception.

I'm just curious, if a Jewish couple loses a baby during child birth (it never draws it's first breath) what do they do with the child? Is it not given a religious burial? (I have Jewish friends but this unpleasant topic has never made the dinner time conversation.)

GeauxLSU said:

The soul exists prior to and after the body's existence. The body is nothing more than a vessel on it's best day, so to answer your question, the baby always has it's soul. From the moment of conception.

I'm just curious, if a Jewish couple loses a baby during child birth (it never draws it's first breath) what do they do with the child? Is it not given a religious burial? (I have Jewish friends but this unpleasant topic has never made the dinner time conversation.)

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I'm not sure, but I will gladly ask the Rabbi tomorrow. I do know that because of their belief in when the baby is given it's soul, abortion is not prohibited... in fact, in certain situations it is required, like when the mother's life is in danger. Because the mother already has her soul, her life is more important than the baby's. However, if the baby is already half-born or has taken it's first breath, then the situation changes because they are not allowed to choose between who should live and who should die... both lives would be attempted to be saved at that point.

Quite interesting to hear the different views on here!

I think this verse suggest that a baby is more than just a mass of tissue...

prior to birth.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I realize that the question was about when the soul enters the body...and I think it is reasonable that it is upon delivery. I provide this particular scripture for those that may argue that a baby only has worth after it receives its soul. It is obvious from this passage and others that God values the baby even before conception.

SBG said:

prior to birth.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I realize that the question was about when the soul enters the body...and I think it is reasonable that it is upon delivery. I provide this particular scripture for those that may argue that a baby only has worth after it receives its soul. It is obvious from this passage and others that God values the baby even before conception.

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Sorry, I think I should clarify... the Jewish faith does not disregard the unborn child as a 'mass of tissue'... here, I'll post the general belief from one of the Judaism sites itself, they explain it much better than I did



"In Jewish law, although the human soul exists before birth, human life begins at birth, that is, at the time when the child is more than halfway emerged from the mother's body.

Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you 'cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb' if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. "

www.jewfaq.org

I'm with Phil on this one as I believe life exist at the moment of conception.Unborn babies begin to move long before birth.I can't see something that is not life moving!Granted,it can't survive on it's own but it does move within the mother.

I guess if someone believes life doesn't exist till birth then they would have little thought of abortion.

CAL said:

I'm with Phil on this one as I believe life exist at the moment of conception.Unborn babies begin to move long before birth.I can't see something that is not life moving!Granted,it can't survive on it's own but it does move within the mother.

I guess if someone believes life doesn't exist till birth then they would have little thought of abortion.

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Thanks for your reply Cal!

This brings up another question, perhaps for another thread? Do animals/etc. have souls? They are alive and move... do they have souls as well? And if they do, why is it ok to kill them but not humans? Again, not looking for debate, just discussion!

I suppose that this is a question that requires an opinion as Scripture does not directly answer it. I believe the verses SBG quoted comes the closest to answering it from a Scriptual stand point.

Kerri, I became curious about Jewish law so I looked it up:

Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). "...a baby...becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life.' " In the case of a "feet-first" delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother's body.

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.

Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health.

With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.

Historical Christianity has considered "ensoulment," the point at which the soul enters the body as the time when abortions should normally be prohibited. Belief about the timing of this event has varied from the instant of fertilization of the ovum, to 90 days after conception, or later. There has been no consensus among historical Jewish sources about when ensoulment happens. It is regarded as "one of the 'secrets of God' that will be revealed only when the Messiah comes."

As previously pointed out, despite opinions or Jewish law, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that God values even the unborn. I have always tried to make His thought and beliefs my own thoughts and beliefs.

Dixie Dawg said:

Sorry, I think I should clarify... the Jewish faith does not disregard the unborn child as a 'mass of tissue'... here, I'll post the general belief from one of the Judaism sites itself, they explain it much better than I did

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That statement wasn't directed towards your comments...that is my generalization.

Does the commentary you posted seem to be the consensus of most Jewish folks?

I seem to recall that there is a law in Leviticus in regards to someone harming a woman that resulted in the seed being damaged or destroyed and God left it up to the husband to determine the punishment...I assume up to death. It even goes on to state if that it was done in mischief that it required then the penalty was death. Does this not imply some intrinsic value to the baby prior to delivery?

David Mills said:

Kerri, I became curious about Jewish law so I looked it up:

Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). "...a baby...becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life.' " In the case of a "feet-first" delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother's body.

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.

Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health.
bullet

With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.

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I think that's pretty much what I had posted, isn't it?

If there was any thought that I was implying that Judaism was in support of using abortion as a means of birth control or anything like that, then I apologize. That's why I went ahead and posted the quote from the www.jewfaq.org site.

Kerri

SBG said:

Does the commentary you posted seem to be the consensus of most Jewish folks?

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I of course cannot speak for all of Judaism, but in my experience and study, yes, it seems to be the general consensus.

I seem to recall that there is a law in Leviticus in regards to someone harming a woman that resulted in the seed being damaged or destroyed and God left it up to the husband to determine the punishment...I assume up to death. It even goes on to state if that it was done in mischief that it required then the penalty was death. Does this not imply some intrinsic value to the baby prior to delivery?

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I would say yes... as they consider the baby to be 'potential life' so yes it is valued... but it is not valued as much as life that is already given, ie: the mother. Does that make sense or am I just confusing it more?

By the way, if anyone is truly interested, you might want to check out that link www.jewfaq.org

They have some interesting comments on Jewish views of homosexuality as well... you may be surprised

Kerri, you sure post fast.

I think that's pretty much what I had posted, isn't it?

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Partially, yes. I just thought that the other comments I found provided a little more perspective concerning Jewish law.

One comment I posted intrigued me:
"With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women."

Kerri, as you had mentioned before, not all "sects" Judaism believe the same. Evidently, the orthodox are not as liberal as other sects when it comes to such issues as abortion.

That leads me to a question concerning the Talmud. After looking at a few sites concerning Judaism, I gather that the Talmud is a collection of teachings and writings, not actual Scripture. Since not all Jewish sects believe the same, would the different sects have a different Talmud?

David Mills said:

Kerri, as you had mentioned before, not all "sects" Judaism believe the same. Evidently, the orthodox are not as liberal as other sects when it comes to such issues as abortion.

That leads me to a question concerning the Talmud. After looking at a few sites concerning Judaism, I gather that the Talmud is a collection of teachings and writings, not actual Scripture. Since not all Jewish sects believe the same, would the different sects have a different Talmud?

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No, they all have the same Talmud. And the Talmud is considered scripture. The Talmud is what is called the "Oral Torah", which basically is a 'guidebook', if you will, to understanding the Torah, or God's Law... how to apply the Laws, the specifics on weights and measures, specific situations, etc. Orthodox Jews believe that God taught the Oral Torah to Moses and he passed it down to generation to generation to the present day, and it was written around the 2nd century C.E. The Talmud is made up of the Mishnah (the actual Oral Law) and the Gemara (additional commentaries on the Mishnah). There are actually two Talmuds though... the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud, the Babylonian one being the most commonly referred to and the most 'complete'.

Really, the Talmud is pretty much just as important to the Jewish faith as the Torah itself is. It is believed that God gave both to Moses and they basically go hand in hand, one is the Oral Torah and one was the Written Torah. I suppose, as each sect of Judaism looks at things in the Torah a little differently, they may also understand the Talmud differently, but the actual books themselves are the same. Not much different than the way that Christians all use the same New Testament but you have different denominations based on interpretations of what those scriptures mean.

It's actually quite interesting, really... as I got more into the Jewish scriptures I saw that they weren't afraid to 'argue' or discuss amongst each other about what things meant... questioning scriptures and how they were to be applied. In fact it almost seems that it is/was encouraged! Maybe that's why I took such a liking to it?

Dixie Dawg said:

This brings up another question, perhaps for another thread? Do animals/etc. have souls? They are alive and move... do they have souls as well? And if they do, why is it ok to kill them but not humans? Again, not looking for debate, just discussion!

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Yes, I believe they have souls. I strongly believe that Snuffy, my first black Lab, helped greet his grandmommy when she died and walked into the Light....They can, also, be angels. Our pets are waiting for us when we leave earth.

Sue

I can't think of any Scripture that indicates that animals have souls, I personally do not believe they do. Not an issue I am going to worry about.

If it has a heart beat, it has a soul. The scripture SBG gave in Jeremiah along with Phils comments about the soul exsist before and after the body go hand in hand.

I will hit on abortion and the soul issue at the same time, if a man kills a lady that is pregnant, he can be charged with taking two lives.
What will happen to the baby if it dies in the womb, if it has no soul where will it spend eternity?

Same concept, if a man that kills that lady can be charged in the death of her unborn child, how is it possible that the doctor or mother can take that life of the unborn through "abortion" and call it leagal or right?

Souls

Animals "do not" have souls!!!

Foxfire/Y2KZ71

Animals most certainly do not have souls. Can they be gifts from God and do his work? I have no doubt they are and do. Do sea sponges have souls?

This is from Luke 1:
39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Elisabeth was the mother of John the Baptist. That was John the Baptist in her womb.

I believe that all souls already exist, that when a baby is concieved that is when it has a soul given to it by God.

Just like the baby that my wife and I lost on Christmas day 2 years ago, which I have no doubt is in heaven. I believe that God has a special place in his heart for unborn babies. I believe that one day me and my wife will see our child in heaven, what a glorious day that will be to be reunited with our child in the presence of Jesus and God.

DB BB