Another church thread.....long winded OP

Sorry for the long winded OP. I hope I can generate some conversation which goes a little deeper than accusations and asking me to just "love the church and all of it's warts." I would love to get some responses, but let's please try to have a discussion here and not an attack of me personally (as in "you sound like a what's in it for me kind-of guy"). If you want me to send you a list of the "service" I have done I will. Also.....I KNOW BOTH SIDES TO EVERY STORY I HAVE EVER RELATED ON THIS FORUM. Please do not insinuate that I am passing along gossip.

I hope some of you who are pastors of small "traditional" church relate the way your church reflects the NT church. I would like those of you who attend or lead contemporary churches relate how your church reflects the NT church.

If we are going to say "go to church," can we explain "why?"

Here goes.......

HF asked a few questions in another thread, so I wanted to address them seperately and leave the Mathew 18 thread alone. Here is the quote........

...the biblical model for church leadership is a plurality of elders. There are LOTS of christians out there who will tell you the very same thing.

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I fundamentally disagree with that assertion. From my perspective, most people will sit in ANY church that satisfies their need for entertainment, and disregard what they percieve as "minutia." IF needed, I will provide multiple links to churches which have in their "values" statements clearly unbiblical leadership structures (I have posted plenty on here before). Most of these churches are growing, and full every Sunday.

This is another problem I have. Christians will line up in record numbers to buy a chicken sandwich to protest gay marriage, but they will not lift one finger to correct the wrongs at "home." I view this as a fundamental disregard of the "speck / log" concept of judgement. And I have difficulty "playing along." We want to judge others, but we can't handle being judged ourselves.

I have tried visiting churches a good bit lately, but I see a lot of the same stuff I always saw. Budget defecits. Marketing. Production for entertainment value. "Pastor led" churches....not "elder led." I feel dirty being part of it. People want to stand against other people. But we don't want to look at the mirror. WE talk about standing for our faith....but we are so selective as to where we take our "stands." And, usually, we end up picking on the "weakest" people who need the most help.

I miss the community aspect of church. What I do not miss is the phoniness of greeters on Sunday smiling and handing me an information card knowing full well that they don't give a crap about me or my family. They want me in the pew writing checks. Let's at least be honest. I don't want anybody to claim to be "family" if they are not willing to treat folks like family. Otherwise, it's a lie.

Who am I? Who are you? If we are supposed to be a "church family" shouldn't we at least be willing to get to know each other? Church today is so foreign to the church I read about in the NT. It's not "cool" anymore to make bread for each other. Yes, there are very good churches out there which are elder led. But, the closest thing I see to the NT church is the contemporary small groups which meet in homes.

I welcome your thoughts.....(Huntinfool...you asked the questions, I am particularly interested in your thoughts).

as in "you sound like a what's in it for me kind-of guy").

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That wasn't an attack....it's just how many of your posts read to me.

I wrote the OP for you, man. Let's have your thoughts.......

From my perspective, most people will sit in ANY church that satisfies their need for entertainment, and disregard what they percieve as "minutia."

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That's probably true. But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers. As long as the leadership isn't in the same camp, there is no issue for me. People are self-centered. One of the church's responsibilities is to help lead them down the path toward sanctification.

I do not disagree that there are many churches out there that are moving in the wrong direction. Where we disagree is that I believe that there are just as many smaller churches (and some really big ones too) out there that 'get it'. You don't seem to have ever run across one.

At the end of the day, I see the same things that you listed. I seem them in churches just like you do.

The difference is that where you see a body that is literally rittled with stage 4 terminal cancer, I see a body that has just been diagnosed with early pre-cancerous skin melanoma (have no idea if that's a real medical term!).

In my world, the body is mostly healthy with some "warts" that need to be worked on and refined in the fire of the HS. In your world (seemingly), there is no hope for the church and it is totally overcome with evil men doing evil things....with a few small exceptions and there aren't any near your house at all.

I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended. What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man".

Huntinfool said:

That's probably true. But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers. As long as the leadership isn't in the same camp, there is no issue for me. People are self-centered. One of the church's responsibilities is to help lead them down the path toward sanctification.

I do not disagree that there are many churches out there that are moving in the wrong direction. Where we disagree is that I believe that there are just as many smaller churches (and some really big ones too) out there that 'get it'. You don't seem to have ever run across one.

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So, we agree on the premise, just not my practice because of the premise?

Here's the problem, HF, I know several people who attend one of these "unbiblical" churches, and they know for a fact that the church is absolutely unbiblical......yet they still stood in line to buy a CFA sandwich so they could aid in the "morality" of the world.

It is both puzzling and upsetting. On one hand, they don't care about their "home." On the other hand, they want to tell somebody how to clean up their home.

I don't want any part of that. I don't care if they believe that the gov't should tell folks who to marry. What I do care about is the fact that they are telling people to submit, yet unwilling to submit to the same standards themselves.

Huntinfool said:

At the end of the day, I see the same things that you listed. I seem them in churches just like you do.

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Then why do we argue about it all the dang time?

Huntinfool said:

In my world, the body is mostly healthy with some "warts" that need to be worked on and refined in the fire of the HS. In your world (seemingly), there is no hope for the church and it is totally overcome with evil men doing evil things....with a few small exceptions and there aren't any near your house at all.

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There may be. I have visited about 10 this year. Some are so phony they make me want to puke (I can give illustrations of why I feel that way). Some try very hard to "get it right." My problem is my hesitance to go "all in" only to uproot my family again six months from now when some preacher tells me he had a "vision."

Huntinfool said:

I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended. What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man".

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Bingo.

Now, if that is my perception, am I not acting according to the instructions?

I once listed my 4 "big" negative church experiences for you. I don't think the problem is that I am unwilling to look, I think the difference between you and I is that for all the things we see, I just got fed up. I had enough, and threw in the towel.

When I was a kid I went to an "old-timey" church. This church had a very strong "head pastor," and deacons that gave him fits. In that church, I remember there was a very nice man, who was quiet, and not really of a very high esteem. That church started having problems. When all the "big names" started leaving, this fella remained loyal. He grew in stature within the church. Next thing you know, this fella who had spent years singing in the choir, but never having a solo, was singing solos every other Sunday. He then became a deacon. He then left his wife for a relative of a staff member. The church performed this wedding very shortly after the two divorces were finalized. This man's loyalty to the "wrong team" destroyed his life. I don't want to be that man. I try to have an open mind on who I am actually giving my loyalty to.

It feels good to support the "home team." It feels good to "be somebody." But, to me, it feels dirty to abandon any sense of principle in order to assimilate into something I feel is absolutely incorrect.

JB0704 said:

I have tried visiting churches a good bit lately ...

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Commit to one for three months. If you're fed up with that one at the end of three months, commit to another one. At least you'll be hearing the word of God preached, and you'll be interacting with other believers.

JB0704 said:

They want me in the pew writing checks.

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As the member of a small church with a small budget, I can tell you that is not an insignificant thing.

centerpin fan said:

Commit to one for three months. If you're fed up with that one at the end of three months, commit to another one. At least you'll be hearing the word of God preached, and you'll be interacting with other believers.

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My wife and I did the "4 week" thing with a few of them. One didn't make it past 2 weeks. One made it almost 2 months.

3 months is a long time. Maybe I will try.

centerpin fan said:

As the member of a small church with a small budget, I can tell you that is not an insignificant thing.

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I appreciate your honesty. Actually, I got a good chuckle out of it. And I love small churches. I love the "community" they accomplish. After visiting a mega church, small churches are a breath of fresh air.

What I was getting at was that it often seems that the check is the reason they want the information. Not to share a community with me. They want me to buy in, instead of welcoming me in.

JB0704 said:

My wife and I did the "4 week" thing with a few of them. One didn't make it past 2 weeks. One made it almost 2 months.

3 months is a long time. Maybe I will try.

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Try two months. I once stood on my head for two months. (Going to the bathroom was not a pleasant experience.)

If you remember, could you just list out for me what caused you to not stay at each of the 10 churches you've visited this year?

JB, I think finding a church that puts a lot of emphasis on "Life groups" or small groups with people your age and marital status would be something to look into, this mainly goes for church's that are considered "big".

Our church is relatively in the middle as far as members, but, our pastor is very humble and approachable. Many people would find it interesting that he leaves the finances to the elders and finance team and has no clue who gives what or how much they give.

The life groups are something that everyone in our church are encouraged to join. Obviously it's hard to have a really tight nit community with 3 service times every Sunday with 2,000 members, and that is why life groups are encouraged greatly.

I don't mean for this to come off as a " look how great my church is" (even though I love it), just to give you a couple of paramiters of what I think is a great church to be apart of, and something you might look for when continuing your search, if you haven't already.

A.Quote.[That's probably true. But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers...]End Quote.

B. Quote.[I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended. What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man". ]

Hum. Can B be supported the statement A? I find this stricking that I understand it or else I don't at all.
In anycase I have no dog in this race. Peace bros.

They are either not truly followers OR they are very immature believers.

My personal example is that we have a church of roughly 250 members. Probably 125-150 show up on Sundays regularly. Of that 125-150, my personal observation is that maybe 75 are deeply committed and maturing followers of Christ. The rest are in one of the two categories listed about IMO (and I'm not the judge of their heart...just to clarify).

It is SOOOOOO worth it to be in fellowship with those 75, to grow along side them, to serve with them and to work to change the "75" into "250" along with them.

For me, our church is 75 strong and it is blemished....but a beautiful bride that Christ will be proud to return and redeem for himself on the Day of the Lord.

I think, too often, we concentrate on the other 50-75 and refuse invest the emotional capital to get to know the 75.

Huntinfool said:

If you remember, could you just list out for me what caused you to not stay at each of the 10 churches you've visited this year?

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I don't really want to. Some problems were spotted in multiple churches (vision, budget, over production), some were unique....such as "cold."

Most were not "elder led." I found this out after visiting. Two or three actually were very much "elder led." But that was the definite minority.

A few were extremely "fake."

One gave me very bad "flashbacks" to a previous church. Too much "canned Jesus." (I started a thread after that one).

One gave an absolutely unbiblical sermon based on current circumstance.

"Vision led."

Some of them put an awful lot of emphasis on presentation (high end graphics, lighting, production), but the budget numbers in the bulletin indicated financial struggles (telling me their priorities were in the wrong place).

One my wife was not comfortable in (and if momma ain't happy.....)

If you need more specific than that, I can try.....but it was ten.

Huntinfool said:

I think, too often, we concentrate on the other 75-100 and refuse invest the emotional capital to get to know the 50.

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I beleive equality amongst the body is a biblical concept.

Somewhere in that 75 is a "jb0704" wondering why you don't think he is "family."

Did I say that?

Each of the 250 is precious to me. But many of them show up at 10 and leave the moment the last song is played. They have no interest in fellowship or spiritual growth. They check on the "went to church" box on their weekly form as often as it doesn't conflict with softball or going to the lake. I am not excluding them. They are voluntarily excluding themselves.

The 75 are the ones that my family is in deep fellowship with and I pray that, someday, all 250 will be in that category.

stringmusic said:

JB, I think finding a church that puts a lot of emphasis on "Life groups" or small groups with people your age and marital status would be something to look into, this mainly goes for church's that are considered "big".

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I understand what you are saying. I guess the proble is that I don't really "need" another group of "friends." My wife and I are blessed with a relatively large "inner circle" which mostly consists of my old small group and their wives.

As awesome as that small group was, I have difficulty being part of another one.....I know that one is definitely "my problem."

stringmusic said:

Many people would find it interesting that he leaves the finances to the elders and finance team and has no clue who gives what or how much they give.

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I do find that very interesting, and cool. I know of a church that lost a lot of "big givers." And, suddenly, the pastor who didn't have time for anybody found time to have one-on-one meetings with these "big givers." This man was typically one who said "love it or leave it." But, when it hit the finances, he was willing to listen. I know both sides of that story as well (for those who are about to say I don't).

stringmusic said:

The life groups are something that everyone in our church are encouraged to join. Obviously it's hard to have a really tight nit community with 3 service times every Sunday with 2,000 members, and that is why life groups are encouraged greatly.

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I agree that those groups are the only way to achieve community in a church that size....well, the "best" way. The problem I see with that is a distance is created between the leaders and the congregants. You start to ahve a conglomeration of "mini-churches" within the big church. And, often (not saying your church), nobody really knows what is going on in the leadership. Some are ok with that. I have difficulty trusting pastors / elders without a certani level of transparency. They don't get a "blank check." Nobody should. Accountability is a good thing.

stringmusic said:

I don't mean for this to come off as a " look how great my church is" (even though I love it), just to give you a couple of paramiters of what I think is a great church to be apart of, and something you might look for when continuing your search, if you haven't already.

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It didn't come across that way. I'm glad you like your church. It sounds like a good one. I enjoyed the sermon you sent me. Your pastor comes across as a decent fella.....and a terrible hunter

Huntinfool said:

Did I say that?

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It cam across that way. I may have misunderstood.

Huntinfool said:

Each of the 250 is precious to me. But many of them show up at 10 and leave the moment the last song is played. They have no interest in fellowship or spiritual growth. They check on the "went to church" box on their weekly form as often as it doesn't conflict with softball or going to the lake. I am not excluding them. They are voluntarily excluding themselves.

The 75 are the ones that my family is in deep fellowship with and I pray that, someday, all 250 will be in that category.

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We seem to be on the same page in a lot of ways here. I also believe that if you are going to be called part of a church that you should be part of the "church community" and not an attender of a service.

A freind of mine and I helped another friend move to another state a few Sundays ago. On the trip, we agreed that what we were doing was more "church like" than sitting in a pew woudl have been.

JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up.

Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.

thedeacon said:

JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up.

Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.

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Oh. You must haved missed it.....

I gave up on church years ago for many of the reasons you listed, and a few others I listed. I visited some this year.....but you're right. I don't belong.

thedeacon said:

JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up.

Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.

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BTW, I guess you skipped, or ignored, the first paragraph in the OP. I was asking specific questions, and asked that it not be turned into an attack. Fantastic that you had absolutely nothing of value to add, yet still wanted to take a shot. Thanks for telling me to love the church anyway. If you had actually read the OP, you would have understood somebody has said that a time or two....