A revival .. of sorts?

StriperAddict · Mar 29, 2013

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

A powerful study verse, IMO

!

To have an understanding of this verse in context (esp w Romans 4:15-17 and Rom chs 5, 6, 7 and 8) ... it'll do wonders to our life IN Christ!
:yeah:

Any thoughts on the verse, or others in the same subject?

hummerpoo · Mar 29, 2013

I have come to view 7:12-14 as Paul's conclusion, and the key to Chapters 2-7. The law is holy ... the law is spirit ... the spirit is opposed to the flesh, therefore the law condemns the flesh.

Edited to add Ch 2,3.

StriperAddict · Apr 1, 2013

Here's some thoughts from a message I got from my Men's Fraternity leader. Although it is on the subject of spiritual warfare, it brings out the baseless struggle with our "self" efforts (in keeping the law, etc) and was an inspiration to me this am on this subject ...
===========

Dr. S. D. Gordon admonished: "When you are in the thick of the fight, when you are the object
of attack, plead less and claim more, on the ground of the blood of the Lord Jesus. I do not
mean ask God to give you victory, but claim His victory, to overshadow you."

Watchman Nee startles many by saying, "God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from
man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove
the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger
all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence,
something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way
of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it,
then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I
were stronger,’ we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper,’ and so we plead with
the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.

"But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not
by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. This is surely a
peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of
sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything
but by removing him from the scene of action."
The believer does not have to beg for help. He does have to thankfully appropriate that which is
already his in Christ, for, "the just shall live by faith" (Heb. 10:38). And dear old Andrew Murray
encourages us with "Even though it is slow, and with many a stumble, the faith that always thanks
Him not for experiences, but for the promises on which it can rely—goes on from strength to
strength, still increasing in the blessed assurance that God himself will perfect His work in us (Phil. 1:6)."

also...
Hebrews 7:19

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

StriperAddict · Apr 1, 2013

Also... from "the Green Letters":

7. ROMANS SEVEN RECKONING

If believers knew more fully the deliverance of the first part of Romans Seven, they would experience less of the defeat of the latter part! This vitally important chapter has to do mainly with the principle of law.

Positionally, in Christ, no believer is under law, "The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ"; "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (John 1:17; Romans 10:4). Conditionally, almost all believers are to some extent under the principle of law "as a rule of life." The all-too-general attitude is: I must love the Lord and others; I must maintain my testimony; I must witness and work for Him; I must resist self; I must stop this sinning. The feeling of constraint expressed in "I must" makes for Romans Seven defeat.

"The law is holy... just, and good" (Romans 7:12). The purpose of God's law, both in command and principle, is to bring to light and cause us to face up to the fact of our sinfulness, weakness, and bondage. Its faithful ministry, negative though it be, is all-important. Law does not make us sinners; it is holy, and reveals to us that we are sinful. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).

Anything we seek to do, or keep from doing, in our own strength brings us under legal bondage. Any promises or vows we make to the Lord, any code of ethics or rules of conduct that we set up for ourselves or have placed upon us, are on the basis of law and therefore result in failure and ever-deepening enslavement. The principle of law applies to the self-life, and can produce nothing but self-righteousness. Thus, the law convicts of our need of life in Christ.

The years of struggle and failure we experience are not only to prepare us for liberation from the tyranny of the principle of sin, but from the bondage of the principle of law. We are brought not only to the release of Romans Six, but to the deliverance of Romans Seven. We exchange "the law of sin and death" for "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom.8:2).

We are given the key to the problem of law at the very door of Romans Seven: "Know ye not, brethren, ...how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Rom.7:1). Exactly! All through the years of defeat, we have been slowly learning that the harder we tried to live the Christian life the deeper we came under the dominion of the law of sin. We tried to "be," we tried to "do," and there was nothing but failure year in and year out.

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sin, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit [works] unto death" (Rom.7:5) As long as we depended on our own resources, all we produced was sin; we hungered for life, and brought forth death. But in the midst of our wretched attempts to be delivered from the "body of this death" (Romans 7:24), our faithful Father was teaching us what we had to know for our freedom in Christ: self is our greatest enemy, Christ is our only hope. "For to me to live is Christ" (Philippians 1:21).

With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25).

First, we learn that our having died in Christ on the Cross gives us the ground for freedom from the power of sin. But unless we learn the answer to the bondage of the principle of law, we will be right back in the defeat of Romans Seven, no matter how hard we reckon. Law reveals sin and produces bondage. The answer to the principle of sin prepares us for the answer to the principle of law. Reckoning is the key to both, and both have to do with the death of the Cross and our life in Christ. "But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound; so that we serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter" (Rom.7:6, NASB). As Paul tells us in verse 1, as long as we lived and walked in the self-life we were under the principle and dominion of law.

But thanks be to God, we not only died to the principle of sin in Christ on the Cross, but there we also died to (out from the dominion of) the principle of law! Further, we were not only thereby freed from the "oldness of the letter," but were joined to Him in "newness of spirit.” “Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ; that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God" (Rom.7:4, NASB)

Here again we must be reminded that the power for deliverance from the law does not reside in the fact that we have died unto it, but in our relationship to the risen Liberator. "Christ the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Unless we clearly reckon upon our having died to the principle of law, we are constantly under the pall of failing to meet our spiritual obligations. On the other hand, when we rest in our risen Lord we are more aware of His sufficiency than we are of the claims of law upon us, and we are able to walk in the "liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" (Galatians 5:1). "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 12:28).

Each of us has "died to the Law" (Galatians 2:19, NASB), we were "discharged from the law" (Rom.7:6), and we are now "not under the law" (Rom.6:14). We are completely out of the realm of the principle and command of the law, and are forever on the ground of grace in our Lord Jesus Christ. "The Law came in, that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom.5:20-21, NASB).

The Spirit of Truth is not only explicit and thorough in presenting the truth, but He is also exact and painstaking in preparing our hungry hearts for the appropriation of it. Most of His spiritual work He accomplishes in our lives through natural means, such as our careful, dependent study coupled with the vicissitudes of everyday life. The bondage of the principle of law finally brings us to its goal -- the death of the Cross. Now we are able to understand that "Through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I [self] who live, but Christ [my new life] lives in me [new creation]: and the life which I now live in the flesh [body] I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:19-20, NASB).

As we reckon upon having died to the principle of law, and abide in our risen Lord, the Holy Spirit progressively carries out the will of the Father in our life. His perfect will becomes a delight to us, not a duty. "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (Rom.8:3-4, NASB), "not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life" (Hebrews 7:16).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1); "for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom.8:2). "Consider yourselves to be dead to sin [and law], but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Rom.6:11, NASB).

hummerpoo · Apr 1, 2013

When I looked at the above the first thing that came to my mind was a statement made by Sargeant York in the movie when his commanding officer handed him a book entitled History of the United States; "sure are a lota writin'".

After reading through it, I would estimate 40 to 60 hours of hard work (given my thinking speed) would be required to critique it properly. I choose to forgo that chore.

Although there is nothing obviously incorrect in Mr. Nee's statement, there is also nothing particularly instructive. That being an assessment of that which is presented above, and not any more complete work.

"People" say that Paul is hard to understand (even Peter expressed that opinion) and few disagree. However, his work comes with an endorsement which demands that we put forth the effort required to understand what he is teaching. The second post above is equally hard to understand but without the endorsement. There seems to be a strong dispensational approach at work in the interpretation, and the use of scripture is at least loosely connected, and sometimes simply wrong (notice examples of reference to “the law”, as in the law of God, when the scripture is refering to the law of sin. Witness the last quote (Rm. 6:11) where the unwarranted addition to the text turns Paul's meaning completely on it's head.

StriperAddict said:
Here's some thoughts from a message I got from my Men's Fraternity leader. Although it is on the subject of spiritual warfare, it brings out the baseless struggle with our "self" efforts (in keeping the law, etc) and was an inspiration to me this am on this subject ...
===========

Spritual warfare is the right framework for consideration of the portion of Romans under consideration. That war is one between flesh and Spirit. If we make God's Law the enemy we eliminate the primary means by which we are able to recognize the enemy, and it is us; that is our flesh, our sinful nature, the old man. To eliminate God's Law from spiritual warefare is akin to eliminating preaching from evangelism.

(Rm. 7:13) Therefore did that which is good become {a cause} {of} death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
(Rm. 10:14) How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Spritual warfare will be won by spiritual means; something of which men know nothing. Until men give up on developing their own grand designs and rely totally upon the designs presented to them by God, the war is lost.

Prov. 16:25 There is a way {which seems} right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

(Rm 6:20:23). For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the purpose of the law is to expose sin, leading to sanctification, why would we fear the law, it is a gift from God.

"Self effort" will not succeed against self, the enemy. Paul does not suggest that flesh can defeat flesh, he says that the law condemns the flesh when the Spirit takes over.

StriperAddict · Apr 2, 2013

hummerpoo said:
After reading through it, I would estimate 40 to 60 hours of hard work (given my thinking speed) would be required to critique it properly. I choose to forgo that chore.

Likewise

! But I'll try my best at taking some of your points!

Have we not "died to the law by the body of Christ"?, as the law is never the means to IMPART righteousness... only conviction & consciousness of the adamic sin nature (pre-salvation).

However, once the law does its job as the schoolmaster, pointing to the Christ of the cross, and the person is convicted, he/she turns (act of the will) to Christ and becomes, as the scripture states... a New Creation... God giving the gift of righteousness, repentance, faith, eternal life, etc. Hobbs, I'm sure you "get" that, but I have a question for you:

If we died to sin (Rom 6:2), how is it possible for it (in a believer only) to still be part of our "nature", as you suggest...

hummerpoo said:
If we make God's Law the enemy we eliminate the primary means by which we are able to recognize the enemy, and it is us; that is our flesh, our sinful nature, the old man.

??

Rom 6:6 says: that our old self was crucified with Him...

I know many believers don't really believe that, or wrongfully suggest that we have this "death of the old self" in position only, NOT in actual experience. If so, how can we "fight" against something that hasn't really died?

Paul makes it clear that the "law of sin and death" still exists in the "members of his (our) body", the flesh (Rom7:17,18)but in NO way do we see the scripture saying that the same law of sin is in our soul and spirt man... our new nature in Christ! It is in the new birth that we have a NEW identity and new spirit man!

Yes, the law of sin (or some rightly call the power of sin) is in our flesh, but our flesh, or body, is NOT a nature... and not our IDENTITY.

Consider...
The Old man, or old adamic NATURE was put to DEATH by the cross. Therefore, our new man, or new redeemed creation can "fight" spiritual battles because of this... if it were not so, and our identity (in spirit, NOT in flesh) was still the adamic nature, we could never take authority over sin in the flesh... because sin or the "old adamic man/nature" would be alive in our spirit, and it is not...
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Galatians 2:19
For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Finally, concerning the law, the cross and spiritual warefare, nothing says it better than the Word...

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. (Col 2:13,15)

I've made these points in the past often, as the subject of grace over law is one close to my heart. And although I'm one to conceede that I'm not eloquent in putting my thoughts down, give this a look (& critique

) as time allows.

Peace,
~Walter

formula1 · Apr 2, 2013

Re:

Walter:

I like your thoughts. As I was reading I thought of this scripture and it appears to fit at least a part of your discussion.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Perhaps many don't fully recognize the Life that is in our spirits is the same one who raised Christ from the dead, or rather we don't want to believe it. Often, we tend to hold to what is comfortable to us and right in front of us.

I am of the mind that when we grasp that we are really new, well, the world will once again turn upside down, and the law of Love will be fully kept!

StriperAddict · Apr 2, 2013

I agree Eddie. Life in and from our spirit is freedom indeed!

Which is why I have to surrender the body daily (more like moment by moment!) in order for the resurrected life of Christ to come thru. It is our character that Abba Father is looking to change & be more like the One who bought us.,
Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

As the flesh, or the power of sin in our bodies tug away at us, it is not a warfare between 2 states of being (old man & new man), but it is clearly that agent from satan himself... left in that part of us (body) which will (thankfully!) be buried in the ground one day, as our souls and spirit man go to be with Father!

---------------------

What I would like to take up next in this thread is what Paul said here in Rom 7:17:
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

The word "it" is VERY significant here! I don't think the word refers to an act of sin, because the scriptures teach that, for a believer,
... if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1 John 2:1-3
therefore Paul could not be saying it wasn't him comitting an act of sin (it is, and is with us as well).

While I have my convictions, I'll yield the floor to others on this verse :type:

, and look forward to the gleanings.

~Walter

Artfuldodger · Apr 2, 2013

In response to Romans 7:17, I would say "it" is the act of sin. We as Christians still sin even with the Advocate.
I believe I have something in common with Paul. That is the struggle between Grace and the Law. Also the struggle as to why is a Christian like me still sinning?
Another thing I have in common with Paul is free will. That's why me and him are always wondering and having internal conflicts of the two natures. Just as Jesus had free will sometimes, Jesus & Paul are inspired by God and sometime it is themselves pondering. This is one of those uninspired times. Paul is really having one of his many internal conflicts. I have them all the time, growing pains I guess.
His new nature "I" doesn't approve of the sin that "it", his sin nature or flesh is performing. He isn't free of sin, yet. Maybe through sanctification he will be less sinful but at this point he feels really really bad when he sins. He's on the right path. Christians still have a inherent propensity to sin. This is a conflict neither me nor Paul likes.
During mine and Paul's journey through santification we struggle, seek, concentrate on the Law one day, and concentrate on victory in Jesus the next day.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

In this verse Paul is saying that spiritually the old nature is gone and Christ is the guiding force. The second part of the verse shows that the body part of us still struggles and needs faith in the Son of God.

hummerpoo · Apr 2, 2013

StriperAddict said:
Likewise ! But I'll try my best at taking some of your points!

Have we not "died to the law by the body of Christ"?, as the law is never the means to IMPART righteousness... only conviction & consciousness of the adamic sin nature (pre-salvation).

No, the law does not impart righteousness. When you use the words "never" and "means" I must say that I back off a little. The law is a means, not to righteousness, but to free us from the flesh.

No, not pre-salvation. You must have ears to hear/eyes to see, and that can not be pre-salvation (1 Cor. 1:18)

I said that I view 7:12-14 as the conclusion, along with that view is 7:15-8:17(or thereabouts) as the epilogue. It looks back; sort of, "for clarification" or "now you can expect this". In that mode is (8:3,4) "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh [before you were saved], God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled [that is fully developed (for an example see Mat. 5:21-48)] in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

In that Matthew passage we have one of several examples of what the law of God is really all about, that is what it always was and always will be.

However, once the law does its job as the schoolmaster, pointing to the Christ of the cross, and the person is convicted, he/she turns (act of the will) to Christ and becomes, as the scripture states... a New Creation...

The schoolmaster to speaking "foolishness" if he is speaking to the unsaved, 1 Cor. again. The letter is written to the Church at Rome. Sometimes addressing Jews, sometimes Gentiles, even occasional recognition of the unsaved as shown by the word "if", but directed to believers.

I see an actual question comming up, I'm chicken ... More later, God willing.
.

StriperAddict · Apr 2, 2013

hummerpoo said:
No, not pre-salvation. You must have ears to hear/eyes to see, and that can not be pre-salvation (1 Cor. 1:18)

That's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to LEAD someone (pre-faith) to Christ... but I'll let that go for now also :bounce:

!

Here's a better synopsis of the points about the law... (emphasis added)

Galatians 2:16-20
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 

17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 

18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 

19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; (death to the sin NATURE)
and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Later!
~Walt

Artfuldodger · Apr 3, 2013

quote: With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25). end quote

I can't say I agree with his interpretations of "sin." It's as if God made sin from the beginning as a way to show we needed Jesus. I know there is a fine line there somewhere as the coming of the Lord was prophesied. But to make Christians continue to sin as a way to finally admit defeat and turn totally to Christ I can't agree with. My sins are on my shoulders and not God's. I don't believe I'll ever give up and quit trying to sin for that reason.
My new Christian spirit is still in a human body of flesh. I can't seperate the two. It is a conflict even with my spiritual circumcision. My heart wants God but my flesh still wants worldly things. My flesh wants to sin and my spirit condemns those desires. I strive not to sin yet Romans 7: 21-25 tells me I will.
I find it sad but interesting how my new nature(spirit) has to share an old nature body(flesh).
In closing I don't believe the Holy Spirit wants me to give up "trying not to sin" and announce my defeat. I've already announced defeat. It's still confusing as to why I sin but I know it's my sin. I know God doesn't want me to sin. He wants my obedience.
This man's beliefs on "Our Old Carnal Sinful Nature" sums up my view as well:

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov12.html

StriperAddict · Apr 3, 2013

My notes (most) are in purple...

Artfuldodger said:
quote: With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25)

If you boast in your weakness as Paul did, you'll understand and appreciate to the nth degree just what Christ did for you. I guess I wouldn't call that a defeat...
But if your boast is in just how well you are keeping the rules (law), you'll walk in defeat and condemnation constantly. Let me add... been there, done that!

I can't say I agree with his interpretations of "sin." It's as if God made sin from the beginning as a way to show we needed Jesus. I know there is a fine line there somewhere as the coming of the Lord was prophesied. But to make Christians continue to sin
Where are you getting that?
as a way to finally admit defeat and turn totally to Christ I can't agree with.

So you disagree that "the law was given so the transgression might increase" Romans 5:20?

Then consider:
Romans 5:15
and especially...
Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

My sins are on my shoulders and not God's.

As a believer in the Risen Lord, both your ACTS of sin and the Old Sin Nature were crucified.. erradicated.. put to DEATH (along with the LAW which was nailed to the cross)! Why in heaven do you want to carry a burden that God never intended His children to carry???

I don't believe I'll ever give up and quit trying to sin for that reason.

"Cease striving and KNOW that HE is God" and not you. As your faith in Christ develops (behavioral sanctification) His work will put to rest those tendencies to sin. I understand this to mean we are to surrender or body daily to be used as His "temple", the place where His Spirit dwells, in order to lay aside the "things" of the flesh... I may be wrong but I think that is what you are trying to say... ??

My new Christian spirit is still in a human body of flesh. I can't seperate the two.

Agreed.

It is a conflict even with my spiritual circumcision. My heart wants God but my flesh still wants worldly things. My flesh wants to sin and my spirit condemns those desires.

Ok! Here's where Paul's teaching gets interesting!
Just consider what Paul discovered in Rom 7 was that the "IT" he spoke of in Rom 7:17:
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

The "IT" here is any sinful "fleshly" THOUGHT, and Paul is saying he did not generate "IT"... but the SIN (or power of sin) dwelling in his flesh did!

Stop to think on THAT for a moment and we may understand that we can CLAIM Christ's victory over those evil THOUGHTS...
because they do NOT come from our IDENTITY (our New Nature, or new spirit man) in Christ
but from the POWER of SIN in our un-redeemed body!

I'll say it again... your FLESH is NOT your identity,
your New Creation spirit man in Christ IS!

Rom 7 is not "the defeated Christian's chapter...
but is the victorious Christian's chapter. Consider once more...
Rom 7:17:
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, (the evil thought(s) generated by the power of sin in my flesh), but sin which dwells in me."

From this understanding we can apprehend His power to overcome what we cannot in our own strength.

I strive not to sin yet Romans 7: 21-25 tells me I will.
I find it sad but interesting how my new nature(spirit) has to share an old nature body(flesh).

Ok, remove the "old nature" from the above and that makes sense to me

In closing I don't believe the Holy Spirit wants me to give up "trying not to sin" and announce my defeat.
I've already announced defeat. It's still confusing as to why I sin but I know it's my sin.

I would hope some of the above might help you to see yourself as God's child and understand how the "battle" takes place. You ARE on the winning side because Christ did ALL the winning for you. Stop letting those thoughts of defeat and condemnation (yep, from your flesh, not your new man) keep you from understanding your righteous relationship to the Father.

I know God doesn't want me to sin. He wants my obedience.

Agreed, up to the point where the law is said to be "useful in determining one's position or life in Christ". The law cannot. What we are is determined by our Birthright, not the "works of the law".

This man's beliefs on "Our Old Carnal Sinful Nature" sums up my view as well:

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov12.html

Art, I hope some of this helps!
Go grab the book "GraceWalk" by Steve McVey for a much better understanding of this, as I'm one to conclude my writings don't do this subject the full understanding it deserves. :type:

And watch out for them legalists... as in Paul's day (Galatians 2:4-6), they'll jump all over grace and demonize it to their own ruin!

Grace and Peace be yours in Christ

~Walter

gemcgrew · Apr 3, 2013

StriperAddict said:
That's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to LEAD someone (pre-faith) to Christ... but I'll let that go for now also !

Where there is faith, there is regeneration and vice versa.

hummerpoo · Apr 3, 2013

striperaddict said:
that's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to lead someone (pre-faith) to christ... But i'll let that go for now also !

huh???

Clarification ... I don't believe I said that, If I did, please point it out so I can fix it.

hummerpoo · Apr 3, 2013

StriperAddict said:
Here's a better synopsis of the points about the law... (emphasis added)

Galatians 2:16-20
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 

17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 

18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 

19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; (death to the sin NATURE)
and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Later!
~Walt

When did we change the discussion to justification, I missed that.

Artfuldodger · Apr 3, 2013

StriperAddict said:
My notes (most) are in purple...
Art, I hope some of this helps!
Go grab the book "GraceWalk" by Steve McVey for a much better understanding of this, as I'm one to conclude my writings don't do this subject the full understanding it deserves.

And watch out for them legalists... as in Paul's day (Galatians 2:4-6), they'll jump all over grace and demonize it to their own ruin!

Grace and Peace be yours in Christ

~Walter

Believe me everything helps. I appreciate your responses. Too bad you didn't get anymore to answer on what "IT" is.
I'm sorta confused on your views of Lordship Salvation since you mentioned "watch out for the legalists." What is the difference from the "not sinning" aspect vs "not following the law" asect?

I would like more input on the purpose of the Law. Was it the sole purpose to show we needed a Savior? Did God set us up to fail to save the day? God never expected the Jews to follow the Law? He never got angry when people didn't follow the law?
I got his interpretation of sin from this:
With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25).
At one point it appears you "striper addict" are telling us to forget the law and accept the grace of God for Salvation. You can do this by admitting defeat against sin and realizing Jesus is the only way. Then in another topic you are saying Christians don't sin anymore or at least that is what Lordship Salvation is all about. Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong as I get confused easily and do enjoy your input to the topics.

Artfuldodger · Apr 3, 2013

Galatians 3:10 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

It is most definitely in the Bible and I bet someone other than Paul has said this too. If just Paul said it, I might could overlook it.
This only adds to my confusion, if the Old Testament and Law was a setup, I truly wish I didn't believe in Freewill. It would be so much easier to believe in Predestination.
The Law was to show transgressions. Without the Law there is no sin. Then how in the world in modern times are we expected not to sin if sin and law is the same thing? One day we aren't to follow the law, Jesus saved us from it. Today we are not to sin because we have a new nature and if we continue to sin, we had a False Conversion.
I truly hope I'm the only confused Christian and that is is from Election and not Freewill. I wish I could "surrender all" as the old song suggests. Maybe I'm elected and as Paul i'm just trying to figure it all out. Paul did ask himself a lot of questions. At times he seemed as confused as me and he figured it out.

StriperAddict · Apr 4, 2013

hummer & Art, this is really great stuff you're bringing up (of law, grace, justification etc) and I just didn't have time to check the thread out today at all. (More cyber house hunting and a non-stop day at the mill)
It's late and I'm crashing and really disappointed I can't take any points tonight and do them any justice. But I'll print ya'lls posts & read/ ::;

and get back as time lets me.
Press on & press IN!

~Walter

Artfuldodger · Apr 4, 2013

StriperAddict said:
hummer & Art, this is really great stuff you're bringing up (of law, grace, justification etc) and I just didn't have time to check the thread out today at all. (More cyber house hunting and a non-stop day at the mill)
It's late and I'm crashing and really disappointed I can't take any points tonight and do them any justice. But I'll print ya'lls posts & read/ and get back as time lets me.
Press on & press IN!

~Walter

Good luck on your cyber house hunting. We had better luck using the internet that our realtor. You can tell them over & over what you don't want and they continue to show you those houses anyway. When you find your house you will know it's yours.
Take you time and we'll be waiting for your input.

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