Shame

Far too many believers are feeling dirty, worthless and ashamed of themselves; shame is a silent, but deadly disease that pollutes the lifeblood of many believers faith. As a result, we feel unclean and therefore unworthy to approach God and have the living and intimate relationship that he wants to have with us. Shame prevents us from intimacy with God because it makes us feel unworthy and distant from him. God’s standard is nothing less than perfection and none of us measure up, if we did or we ever could measure up sufficiently righteous for heaven through our performance, we would not have needed a savior at all. For it is God’s grace, not our striving, that makes us accepted and acceptable. It is God’s performance through Jesus Christ, not our trying hard to perform, that eradicates our shame. Some of us spend most of our life giving up. We are tired, burned out, disillusioned, depressed, addicted to something. People around us feel frustrated by the huge disparity between our capabilities and our performance. They either pep talk us concerning our value, or shame us for not performing. No one can have a close relationship with us; we push people away physically and emotionally, and push God away. We are the ones in families, churches, and society that people take care of-for a while, until we are given up on because of our lack of response. For all the performance-based people around us, we are simply bad for public relations. Once in a while we find ourselves in an environment that shames us for being so defective, then we start trying harder, but it does not last for long, we are simply out of gas to start with, we merely survive.

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

Reminds me of a great book, "that we would see Jesus"

It's not just a matter of salvation.
Those who've been saved through God's wonderful grace sometimes need to be confronted with the truth. Like those Asian churches in Revelation 1 and 2.
Christians need to get up off their lazy rears and let the fruits of the spirit show. Be shining lights in the world. Stop pretending to be unable to.
.
Sittin up on that fence rail gets uncomfortable after awhile. Can't find a comfortable position.

Ronnie T said:

It's not just a matter of salvation.
Those who've been saved through God's wonderful grace sometimes need to be confronted with the truth. Like those Asian churches in Revelation 1 and 2.
Christians need to get up off their lazy rears and let the fruits of the spirit show. Be shining lights in the world. Stop pretending to be unable to.
.
Sittin up on that fence rail gets uncomfortable after awhile. Can't find a comfortable position.

Click to expand...

Yes...exactly. I once had a conversation with a car scrap yard, second hand car parts business owner. He was always happy, always smiling and laughing when he brought business to me-- usually moose antlers to mount. He is well past the age of retirement but is still working and is a dedicated moose hunter . ( Moose hunting is grunt hunting, hard work etc.)

One day I asked him are you always happy? He said, " No! Sometimes I can get very angry. Like when my employees don't even try to do something and instead give up even before they start a proposed project." He continued, " You have to try. You'll never know if many things are really impossible or possible if you don't try. That's how we learn many things."

I know he's right.

i just experienced something similar in my life. i had a bad accident left me addicted to meds. i mean a really bad accident i have all the excuses in the world to take them and lesser injured people who do that i can justify it by but i couldn't stand being tied to something i had to go and get just to survive or be happy. i was so ignorant about it, it still confounds me now. After God and the Doctors healed me and i walked out all i could do is think about going to Church to Thank God. I went a few times but then fell right back into my old ways compounded with new ways i was left with and Some good and Some bad but i was still lost and i lacked understanding. So i took to the Bad ways of what filled that hole of not truly being thankful to God for my life. My wife kept on being the Saint and i just lived practically chasing my problems ''like a dog would its tail''. One day i decided to go to Church with her and just kept pushing to make myself go. Something inside me said it takes time not a Sunday to build that relationship back. I stuck it out for a couple of years and i joined my church, they give me a new Bible, I then began reading and since then thats the only thing that fills that hole. I sometimes wonder if the Worst sinners have felt the power of God more than those shy sinners that shied away from sin. He has touched me and brought me back to life once more. Romans Ch.7 sums it up pretty well if you can interpret. Finding ways of doing good is harder than ways of doing bad. If you choose to do good then evil walks right next to you. Now i'm left confounded by how do you help others break that viscous cycle? I want them to have what i have but the Bible says it, their mouths will be open and their ears shut. they point to a speck of saw dust but can't see for the plank in their own eye..''paraphrase sorry i hope that one day i to can quote Scripture word for word''.. I hope you understand what i'm saying its hard to explain My Faith sometimes. I'm sitting on that by the words i read ''he's practically told me if i can't help myself, then how can i help someone else'' .. this is true because even though the habits been healed Temptation abounds even in new forms. If your scared of the dark then life must be terrifying but i look to the light and i pray he'll always show me the way.

this is personal but being honest with God is the hardest thing to do sometimes and i believe being honest with yourself and God is where your made whole again. then you can build relations with his people to know your purpose again. just pray i walk in the light from here on. i do like when he opens my eyes and shows how ignorant i was but its a hard line because sin dwells in us. very humbling. i just don't like being lost but makes being found a great experience. Some seem to have the mindset of not ever needing the power of God and it makes me wonder are they to great to humble themselves or do they have what it takes to walk the line. I try not to think about it too much because letting other minds hinder us from receiving our salvation can hurt us dearly. I also wonder about how many feel as though they have to go to Church to be saved. If maybe someone considers themselves an Atheist when in reality they practice faith behind closed doors and actually hold onto a straight conversation with God rather than moving through the line of people. i kind of feel like we let people down by judging and teaching bible stories rather than teaching the basic principals of worship. I wondered how many knows the difference in God,Lord Jesus, the Holy Ghost, how the prayers work and not to try and make God prove himself to you but rather meet him halfway. its hard to teach these things later in life. the people are confused or confounded by the concept. they lack the want to because they feel its over their heads. They could resort to defense mechanism, cause they would feel insecure. its not me but these things i wonder. my mind rambles i'm sorry.

Yet many believers spend their entire existence unsuccessfully trying to be someone other than who they really are, paying lip service to the idea that we are accepted because of God’s grace, the struggle for acceptance on the basis of works is epidemic, but the greatest travesty of all, is the lack of understanding about our new identity in Christ. Jesus was indeed faithful, he allowed himself to be crucified, he bore our sins there, the entirety of the sin debt of the world. Jesus died there for our sins, he was buried and on the third day God raised him from among the dead, having completed all that was necessary to accomplish our total and everlasting justification in the eyes of Almighty God. It would be disastrous enough if the reason people did not understand who they are was simply for a lack of information, and the truth is that there is an absence of teaching concerning our new identity and what it means to be new creations in Christ.
http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

I've spent my lifetime trying to live as a Christian. I've always felt like I've never done quite enough.
I too am constantly reminded of those Asian Churches and need to be confronted with the truth.

Artfuldodger said:

Yet many believers spend their entire existence unsuccessfully trying to be someone other than who they really are, paying lip service to the idea that we are accepted because of God’s grace, the struggle for acceptance on the basis of works is epidemic, but the greatest travesty of all, is the lack of understanding about our new identity in Christ. Jesus was indeed faithful, he allowed himself to be crucified, he bore our sins there, the entirety of the sin debt of the world. Jesus died there for our sins, he was buried and on the third day God raised him from among the dead, having completed all that was necessary to accomplish our total and everlasting justification in the eyes of Almighty God. It would be disastrous enough if the reason people did not understand who they are was simply for a lack of information, and the truth is that there is an absence of teaching concerning our new identity and what it means to be new creations in Christ.
http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

I've spent my lifetime trying to live as a Christian. I've always felt like I've never done quite enough.
I too am constantly reminded of those Asian Churches and need to be confronted with the truth.

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Art, all my adult life I've asking God to get me to do something worthwhile in/for the kingdom--before I get to be a listless senior, when I mostly empty on energy and vigor. But, God only responded in part ( so I thought) , mostly with odd jobs here and there for me.

Now I'm a senior and I can reflect on what I did not see in myself back when I was full of vinegar and fox marker. What my spiritual interests and preparations were, were not always my Lords interest. But when they were, things happened that were quite remarkable.

I will share somethings that is well known. By serving others, instead of trying to get personally enlightened, I was enlightened. Service to others forced me to know my stuff, not for myself, but for my Lord's purpose in service.

For example when I was a Sunday school teacher I had to study twice some times three times as hard as I expected my students to study and with a whole lot of trusting in God to guide me, I mean alot!

Alot of our lives on spiritual matters is self centered in outlook, especially when we are young but also at anytime on the lifespan. It is almost a silent doctrine of salvation sometimes. For example, I think much of a person's anxiety comes from a 20th and 21st century bromide: " How do you know you are saved." Its a really odd question. It is odd because one can always answer with the response that we are of the opinion we are. But for nebulous and varied facts that so many claim they are one is anxious of one's opinion. Opinions are very powerful and opinions of uncertainty are killers.

I am in matters concerning my Lord and his will very impatient--because,--- because,--- because--- I will most like not even be alive in 20 yrs. My time line sees me going to the United Nations and telling them how to meat out my Lord's justice in five yrs. My Lord on the other hand wants of me to teach small children how to become adults in the faith, so that in 500yrs one of their great, great, ( seven generations from now) grand dauthers of one of my students ( I don't know which one) will go to the nations and teach them what is justice according to my Lord. And not BEFORE!

In submission I am where I am takes me.

gordon 2 said:

Art, all my adult life I've asking God to get me to do something worthwhile in/for the kingdom--before I get to be a listless senior, when I mostly empty on energy and vigor. But, God only responded in part ( so I thought) , mostly with odd jobs here and there for me.

Now I'm a senior and I can reflect on what I did not see in myself back when I was full of vinegar and fox marker. What my spiritual interests and preparations were, were not always my Lords interest. But when they were, things happened that were quite remarkable.

I will share somethings that is well known. By serving others, instead of trying to get personally enlightened, I was enlightened. Service to others forced me to know my stuff, not for myself, but for my Lord's purpose in service.

For example when I was a Sunday school teacher I had to study twice some times three times as hard as I expected my students to study and with a whole lot of trusting in God to guide me, I mean alot!

Alot of our lives on spiritual matters is self centered in outlook, especially when we are young but also at anytime on the lifespan. It is almost a silent doctrine of salvation sometimes. For example, I think much of a person's anxiety comes from a 20th and 21st century bromide: " How do you know you are saved." Its a really odd question. It is odd because one can always answer with the response that we are of the opinion we are. But for nebulous and varied facts that so many claim they are one is anxious of one's opinion. Opinions are very powerful and opinions of uncertainty are killers.

I am in matters concerning my Lord and his will very impatient--because,--- because,--- because--- I will most like not even be alive in 20 yrs. My time line sees me going to the United Nations and telling them how to meat out my Lord's justice in five yrs. My Lord on the other hand wants of me to teach small children how to become adults in the faith, so that in 500yrs one of their great, great, ( seven generations from now) grand dauthers of one of my students ( I don't know which one) will go to the nations and teach them what is justice according to my Lord. And not BEFORE!

In submission I am where I am takes me.

Click to expand...

What scares me in this belief is, complacency or laxity.
A Christian is known by the fruit he bears. I sometimes feel I don't produce enough fruit. This appears from what I read in that: I'm not a Christian or God elects whom he will or perhaps I was never a Christian.
This is what some say when a good devout Christian becomes complacent.
I do admit I don't like felling this way.

A scenario like this: A young man accepts Jesus in his twenties. In his thirties he gets involved in sexual deviations or perhaps he just becomes complacent in living a Christian life. Nothing drastic, he just loses interest in God, Church, etc. He doesn't live a Christian life although he would still consider himself a Christian.
I know it's not my place to judge, but if this man or men were having an intimate relationship with God, guided by the Holy Spirit, where's the proof? Why shouldn't this man feel shame? If this man should then there is an indication I should too. We just have variations of sins.

But what some are teaching is:
If sin isn't an issue and we are saved by grace, then we are all free. We shouldn't want to sin, but we do have that freedom.
That would be fine if we stopped there. But someone eventually adds, proof by fruit.

Artfuldodger said:

What scares me in this belief is, complacency or laxity.
A Christian is known by the fruit he bears. I sometimes feel I don't produce enough fruit. This appears from what I read in that: I'm not a Christian or God elects whom he will or perhaps I was never a Christian.
This is what some say when a good devout Christian becomes complacent.
I do admit I don't like felling this way.

A scenario like this: A young man accepts Jesus in his twenties. In his thirties he gets involved in sexual deviations or perhaps he just becomes complacent in living a Christian life. Nothing drastic, he just loses interest in God, Church, etc. He doesn't live a Christian life although he would still consider himself a Christian.
I know it's not my place to judge, but if this man or men were having an intimate relationship with God, guided by the Holy Spirit, where's the proof? Why shouldn't this man feel shame? If this man should then there is an indication I should too. We just have variations of sins.

But what some are teaching is:
If sin isn't an issue and we are saved by grace, then we are all free. We shouldn't want to sin, but we do have that freedom.
That would be fine if we stopped there. But someone eventually adds, proof by fruit.

Click to expand...

I think that the context of " you shall know them by their fruits" refers to ministers, apostles and such folk. Check it out...many people will say the darnest things out of context and apply things meant to be for a specific application and apply it to all things. And I'm not excluding myself. Dont' be too hard on yourself, bros.

Ronnie T said:

It's not just a matter of salvation.
Those who've been saved through God's wonderful grace sometimes need to be confronted with the truth. Like those Asian churches in Revelation 1 and 2.
Christians need to get up off their lazy rears and let the fruits of the spirit show. Be shining lights in the world. Stop pretending to be unable to.
.
Sittin up on that fence rail gets uncomfortable after awhile. Can't find a comfortable position.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Too many never get past being fed and start feeding others.

SemperFiDawg said:

I agree 100%. Too many never get past being fed and start feeding others.

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Yes... Also, too much rehashing of the milk.

I'm beginning to wonder if for some, their belief includes that there is actually no meat beyond milk? Or, perhaps that the responsiblilities that follow from consuming meat, is so worrying that it is better to stick to infant cereals or worse,-- the choice is made that meat is not essential to the faith.

gordon 2 said:

Yes... Also, too much rehashing of the milk.

I'm beginning to wonder if for some, their belief includes that there is actually no meat beyond milk? Or, perhaps that the responsiblilities that follow from consuming meat, is so worrying that it is better to stick to infant cereals or worse,-- the choice is made that meat is not essential to the faith.

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I've never really thought about what the actual difference is between learning/teaching milk & meat. That's an interesting concept. Here is something I was reading:

Doug Walton said that the sermons at our church were full of "milk for baby Christians," and that he would prefer more meat from the pulpit. The Dawsons actually left our church because they wanted more meat. And even from the more satisfied members of the congregation I've heard the comparison between Pastor Chuck, who is meaty, and Pastor Glen, who is milky.

I was aware, of course, that this milk-meat metaphor has a Biblical origin (as, presumably, were most parishioners) but its exact meaning has never been clear to me. And as one who has evidently perpetrated some of those sermons, I have to confess that milk was not my intention. Usually I'm doing all I can to be meaty. But sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between the two. And I'm not alone in this confusion. When I've asked church members to explain the difference their responses seemed to be based not on what "milk" and "meat" were, but what they accomplished, in other words, on the feeling one gets after a sermon. If listeners felt good, it was probably milk. If it made them feel convicted of sin it was meat.

I don't believe, however, that an emotional response to a sermon was the Biblical authors' intent when drawing the comparison between milk and meat. Offering an alternative explanation, one person told me that milk is the basic teachings of Christianity, and meat the deeper stuff.

http://www.preaching.com/resources/articles/11548048/

Artfuldodger said:

I've never really thought about what the actual difference is between learning/teaching milk & meat. That's an interesting concept. Here is something I was reading:

Doug Walton said that the sermons at our church were full of "milk for baby Christians," and that he would prefer more meat from the pulpit. The Dawsons actually left our church because they wanted more meat. And even from the more satisfied members of the congregation I've heard the comparison between Pastor Chuck, who is meaty, and Pastor Glen, who is milky.

I was aware, of course, that this milk-meat metaphor has a Biblical origin (as, presumably, were most parishioners) but its exact meaning has never been clear to me. And as one who has evidently perpetrated some of those sermons, I have to confess that milk was not my intention. Usually I'm doing all I can to be meaty. But sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between the two. And I'm not alone in this confusion. When I've asked church members to explain the difference their responses seemed to be based not on what "milk" and "meat" were, but what they accomplished, in other words, on the feeling one gets after a sermon. If listeners felt good, it was probably milk. If it made them feel convicted of sin it was meat.

I don't believe, however, that an emotional response to a sermon was the Biblical authors' intent when drawing the comparison between milk and meat. Offering an alternative explanation, one person told me that milk is the basic teachings of Christianity, and meat the deeper stuff.

http://www.preaching.com/resources/articles/11548048/

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I don't think milk or meat should affect one emotionally due a sermon. Paul has some things to say to congragations that want to go back and rehash milk, instead of listening for meat and on to "walking" all the talk.

For example, this whole conversation on salvation that we've been having for the last 30 yrs might just be us christians wanting to stay at on the milk line, " Do you know you are saved?" " Do you know Jesus as your personal saviour." etc..

Instead christians having fed on meat, might be mature enought to go beyond the call of the great commission and take on some issues negative to the hope of our house.

The race to run is not just sending missions to pagans and periodic enquisitions to purge the "goats" from the house. The poor and the oppressed are still with us. Our willingness to disregard the captivity of good people in order to not id the oppressors is still a sin we commit too frequently. And to sit back like we are going to heaven because we are saved, we are only giving lip service to what we claim to believe.

We need to get off our butts, like Ronnie said. And we need to id goals, and orient our efforts to match our gifts and not squander our faith in regards the greater commission to love one another.

Artfuldodger said:

...
the truth is that there is an absence of teaching concerning our new identity and what it means to be new creations in Christ.

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I couldn't agree more. Without a spiritually healty examination, some set out in the flesh w/o realising they are powerless.

And others set out by faith, with no showy signs or the approval of men, and love/serve/walk the walk of the exchanged life, "not I, but Christ"

gordon 2 said:

I don't think milk or meat should affect one emotionally due a sermon. Paul has some things to say to congragations that want to go back and rehash milk, instead of listening for meat and on to "walking" all the talk.

For example, this whole conversation on salvation that we've been having for the last 30 yrs might just be us christians wanting to stay at on the milk line, " Do you know you are saved?" " Do you know Jesus as your personal saviour." etc..

Instead christians having fed on meat, might be mature enought to go beyond the call of the great commission and take on some issues negative to the hope of our house.

The race to run is not just sending missions to pagans and periodic enquisitions to purge the "goats" from the house. The poor and the oppressed are still with us. Our willingness to disregard the captivity of good people in order to not id the oppressors is still a sin we commit too frequently. And to sit back like we are going to heaven because we are saved, we are only giving lip service to what we claim to believe.

We need to get off our butts, like Ronnie said. And we need to id goals, and orient our efforts to match our gifts and not squander our faith in regards the greater commission to love one another.

Click to expand...

I like this response. Maybe for the New Year I can venture away from the milk and on to meat. To me this will delve more into the spiritual aspect of Christianity. Not that I can totally deny my physical body or physical existence. Those physical commands of living a Christian life are still there, love, helping, and forgiving. But I want to address them from a new spiritual awakening more than a legalistic viewpoint. I'm not completely discarding my discipleship beliefs but trying to find a happy medium.

StriperAddict said:

I couldn't agree more. Without a spiritually healthy examination, some set out in the flesh w/o realizing they are powerless.

And others set out by faith, with no showy signs or the approval of men, and love/serve/walk the walk of the exchanged life, "not I, but Christ"

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As you well know from my fellowship, I'm always on a Religious roller coaster. Maybe this is the year for me to get off of the ride and take the spiritual exam. Again I am not willing to give up my discipleship. Jesus is still my Lord and requires my lordship.
I can only look for my inter-peace in making Jesus my Savior and Lord. Holiness is still an important part of my journey as I try to become more like Jesus. I'm just going to try it from a more spiritual level. I don't believe this will be totally possible until I die or until Jesus returns. This is when my new spirit will finally be set free. There is something about this body that I can't shake and that is where my shame comes from.
When I have lust in my heart or when I cheat a friend or hate a neighbor. I can only be honest with myself as it still happens.
I can read 1,000 verses and I still have shame, doubt, repentance, worry, & fear. The bright side is I never lose Love, Faith, or Hope. That's gotta say something for my well being.

Artfuldodger said:

As you well know from my fellowship, I'm always on a Religious roller coaster.
I understand. Prayers...

Maybe this is the year for me to get off of the ride and take the spiritual exam. Again I am not willing to give up my discipleship.
Jesus is still my Lord and requires my lordship.
I can only look for my inter-peace in making Jesus my Savior and Lord.
He's already done that (become your Lord) by faith. Stop working for what you already own in your inner man(righteousness, holiness, Brother of Christ, Child of God... all a gift of His grace!) , and start enjoying His peace that passes all understanding. Even the holiness... Lordship of Christ is a gift... get off the wagon that sez that who you are comes from what you "DO"; it rather comes from your new creation in Christ, and this is where you can grow and serve Him in joy.

Holiness is still an important part of my journey as I try to become more like Jesus. I'm just going to try it from a more spiritual level. I don't believe this will be totally possible until I die or until Jesus returns.
Yes, In behavior, or about total "behavioral sanctification", I agree... impossible. Sin in our bodies won't die until the body dies. Then we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is! An exciting, breathtaking conclusion to this life awaits the children of the Lord!

This is when my new spirit will finally be set free. There is something about this body that I can't shake and that is where my shame comes from.
Behavioral shame can and does still come from old habit patterns that try and sometimes suceed to get into our brains by the power of sin; and when we yield to that "thought". But the reality of who you already are as God's own can and will "trump" that shame, as you confess and come boldy to His throne. Note the scriptue in Hebrews says to come boldy when we need help, have fallen, need His grace.... not to come boldy when we "have it all together" !!

When I have lust in my heart or when I cheat a friend or hate a neighbor. I can only be honest with myself as it still happens.
I can read 1,000 verses and I still have shame, doubt, repentance, worry, & fear. The bright side is I never lose Love, Faith, or Hope. That's gotta say something for my well being.
Your well being and peace will come as you draw close and also understand what He has truely done for you... not as a result of all those nice things you "do".
If you're having specific struggles, get and keep a solid brother in Christ to be an accountability partner with... "Confess your sins to one another/pray for one another... so that you may be healed". You'd be surprised how the Lord will work on them issues once you bring them to the light with your brother(s).

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Peace brother!

-Walter

StriperAddict said:

Peace brother!

-Walter

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Thanks for the time you put into your answers and thoughts. I will let it slowly sink into my mental processes.
I don't have any great habitual sins that I need any brotherly help with, just the little sins or the ones more acceptable of my brothers.
I had better drift more towards grace only since I'm not making any headway in the "not sinning anymore" department.
Still I feel a need to grow holier and sin less as I grow spiritually in my faith. I feel lordship is still a big part of my beliefs. It was a part of my indoctrination, but I am willing to pray and reach a better understanding of grace.
I just hate to see Christians not acting like Christians using grace as an excuse.

Artfuldodger said:

Thanks for the time you put into your answers and thoughts. I will let it slowly sink into my mental processes.
I don't have any great habitual sins that I need any brotherly help with, just the little sins or the ones more acceptable of my brothers.
I had better drift more towards grace only since I'm not making any headway in the "not sinning anymore" department.
Still I feel a need to grow holier and sin less as I grow spiritually in my faith. I feel lordship is still a big part of my beliefs. It was a part of my indoctrination, but I am willing to pray and reach a better understanding of grace.
I just hate to see Christians not acting like Christians using grace as an excuse.

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Grace is your freedom, not your sin excuse!

Brother, consider this verse from Hebrews carefully...
Heb 10:14 <SUP class=versenum></SUP>
For by one offering (Christ, the cross, once and for all) He has <SUP class=crossreference value='(AC)'></SUP>perfected (made whole, complete, a new creation) <SUP class=crossreference value='(AD)'></SUP>for all time those who are (present tense) <SUP class=footnote value='[g]'></SUP>sanctified.

Whole chapter:
Hebrews 10