Paul's struggle of two natures.

[Artfuldodger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.

OK, in those threads, repentance being one, the homosexual had to repent from his ways to gain salvation. The reformed view of salvation is from grace only/election only. Therefore for the homosexual to gain salvation, the Holy Spirit must produce the fruit to make the necessary changes in the homosexual because if the "man" did it himself, it would be a work.

 

[welderguy]

I don't care to use the bible as traps via wording, if I did I would point out that "he died for all" where you said "one that he died for". It's just a trap you have set. Your not really intending to change the subject to whether "Jesus would lose none", it's simply the first trap that you saw you could set. Good luck with finding any Christian fellowship, because that trap mindset will alienate you

No trap intended, I assure you.

 

[welderguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.

OK, in those threads, repentance being one, the homosexual had to repent from his ways to gain salvation. The reformed view of salvation is from grace only/election only. Therefore for the homosexual to gain salvation, the Holy Spirit must produce the fruit to make the necessary changes in the homosexual because if the "man" did it himself, it would be a work.

still

 

[Artfuldodger]

There's no Torah to return to today... It was destroyed sometime in the first century after all scripture was written.

Even today though and without the Torah, can't a man try to add something to grace he feels necessary to do for salvation?
Call it Torah, Law, works, or whatever some people believe it necessary for salvation. So it's possible for some people even today to try to add something with grace. This is possibly why Romans 7 can be used by us as an example. Even though Romans 7 was about Jews returning to Torah it can still be used as an example of modern day Christians adding something to or with grace for salvation.

Remember the Farley video?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Are you implying that if a person returns to the law, they lose salvation?
Impossible.

Which is impossible? Returning to the law or losing salvation?
Suppose I was to join a Messianic Sabbath keeping Church and started to keep Torah?

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Had they wandered from the truth(gospel) and returned to the Law? "Someone" meaning a man can return one to the truth?

Galatians 3:2-3
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ.
3How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

 

[hobbs27]

Matthew 5:17

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Destroyed. Fulfilled... Either way, it is no more.

 

[hobbs27]

Even today though and without the Torah, can't a man try to add something to grace he feels necessary to do for salvation?
Call it Torah, Law, works, or whatever some people believe it necessary for salvation. So it's possible for some people even today to try to add something with grace. This is possibly why Romans 7 can be used by us as an example. Even though Romans 7 was about Jews returning to Torah it can still be used as an example of modern day Christians adding something to or with grace for salvation.

Remember the Farley video?

Yes it can be used.... But I like to look at it as the author intended it to be and as the audience would have received it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yes it can be used.... But I like to look at it as the author intended it to be and as the audience would have received it.

Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?

17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law.23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.

 

[hobbs27]

Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?

17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law.23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.

No.. This was specific to those Jew's... I'll explain more in detail in the morning... Good night all.

 

[welderguy]

Destroyed. Fulfilled... Either way, it is no more.

Rom.3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Reading over this thread this morning, I'm struck with the visage of John crying out in the wilderness. The are a few sane voices, but the vast expanse is barren wilderness. Truely there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[hobbs27]

Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?


Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.

Yes, keeping in mind that the futility of man that Paul is speaking of is the futility of a man under law.. Specifically Torah (Romans 7:6f) Paul is not discussing the futility of the Christian experience.. Is the redemption in Christ so ineffective, so weak, so lacking, that Paul had to describe the Christian life as the "suffering of the present time"? (Romans 8:18)

Some here will say yes.. They force themselves into thinking our life of Christianity is miserable and we are all worthy of suffering... God's children no less. This is from a bad interpretation of scripture imo, and that's all I'm doing here is showing the victory that Christ was giving these people. The victory over the bondage of the law of sin and death ( Torah).

Paul pointed to it. Romans 8: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

They had no condemnation.. Because there was no indwelling sin. Jesus had taken that at the cross for whosoever will.. It is made for all men, but not all will take of it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If I no longer have a sinful nature, why do I still sin?

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1&2

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” Romans 6:3

“We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:4

“We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6

“For one who has died has been set free from sin.” Romans 6:7

“Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.” Romans 6:8

“So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:11

“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” Romans 6:14

“But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,” Romans 6:17

“and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” Romans 6:18

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22

 

[hobbs27]

Rom.3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is a true saying. Christ and all his works were contained in the Law. The feast Sabbaths all pointed to Christ and the end of the Old covenant age, so they weren't making it void.. They were experiencing it's fruition, it's fullness, or fulfillment.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I do understand the concept of my old self dying with Christ. I do understand my sins were washed. I do understand I'm a new person. I can even see sin as an outside force and not dwelling in my flesh anymore. I understand salvation by grace alone. I understand not being yoked to sin. I understand sin has no power over my salvation.

Yet I still sin. Even though I'm dead to sin. Even though I have been set free.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[hobbs27]

The Jew's that had not accepted Christ in this first century were still clinging to the Old covenant. The Apostles were still calling them out of it.. And it was about to vanish.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[hobbs27]

I do understand the concept of my old self dying with Christ. I do understand my sins were washed. I do understand I'm a new person. I can even see sin as an outside force and not dwelling in my flesh anymore. I understand salvation by grace alone. I understand not being yoked to sin. I understand sin has no power over my salvation.

Yet I still sin. Even though I'm dead to sin. Even though I have been set free.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Imputed sin, is a sin charge, it dwelled in man from Adam, death was it's result. The law was the Law of sin and death. They reigned the entire Old covenant.. Jesus defeated death.. It no longer reigns, sin is no longer imputed to man, Christ dwells in Christians not sin.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So you do immoral things, and you will have to deal with the One that dwells in you, but sin will not bring on death if you are in Christ you have eternal life. If sin brought on physical death... The earth would be rid of mankind.

 

[welderguy]

Reading over this thread this morning, I'm struck with the visage of John crying out in the wilderness. The are a few sane voices, but the vast expanse is barren wilderness. Truely there is nothing new under the sun.

In your mind, which category would you see yourself in?

 

[welderguy]

...Christ dwells in Christians not sin.

again...

Rom.7:17
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

 

[hobbs27]

again...

Rom.7:17
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

And again..

Free from Indwelling Sin
Romans
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death