Converting the dying

[WaltL1]

Part of his plan?

The answer HAS to be, MUST be yes.
And what I mean when I said this -

I honestly believe the average Christian does not realize/understand or does not allow themselves to realize/understand the far reaching impact of what it would mean to be omniscient and omnipotent.
It goes a heck of a lot deeper than turning water into wine or just "knowing" what is going to happen ahead of time.

 

[Israel]

I honestly believe the average Christian does not realize/understand or does not allow themselves to realize/understand the far reaching impact of what it would mean to be omniscient and omnipotent.
It goes a heck of a lot deeper than turning water into wine or just "knowing" what is going to happen ahead of time.

It's not fair!


Precisely.


But it is not unjust.

 

[WaltL1]

It's not fair!


Precisely.


But it is not unjust.

I completely disagree.

un·just
[ˌənˈjəst]
ADJECTIVE
not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair:

But I do acknowledge it would depend on one's view of what is moral or not.

 

[rmp]

Prayer can change things, but ultimately everything will fall into line with God's plans. He is not bound by time like we are.

I never understood this line of thinking even as a believer. Prayer can change nothing other than possibly a persons mindset. In a meditation sense if you will.

If the family gathers around grandma dying of cancer and she dies anyway, it was gods will. His ways not ours. If she lives, it was also his will from the beginning of time. Praying was essentially a waste of time as she was meant to live as part of his master plan.

 

[Israel]

Definition of mercy

plural mercies
1 a : compassion or forbearance (see forbearance 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power; also : lenient or compassionate treatment

 

[bullethead]

It’s always been about who so ever will. Would you prefer your child to choose to love you and do right or force them to?

Get away from religion for a second, our speeding laws are there for a reason, people have goofed up and will again. Do you find it humorous knowing that people will speed anyway? Do you prefer that they govern all cars at a max speed of 55 mph and force you into obeying the speed limit, or give you the choice to do right? Do you feel set up for failure when you buy a car that has 140 on the speed odometer? Did you set your kid up for failure when you gave him the keys to your car knowing that it can run 140 and he has a lead foot? Or did you let him prove himself?

Speeding ticket/burning for all of eternity.

I can see that you in no way want to even get close to touching what the real stakes are.

Do you leave a loaded handgun on the kitchen table and let your children and their friends prove themselves?

As a parent you do as much as possible to prevent harm to loved ones with the foresight that you can possibly see. You hope that you have prepared your children well enough and that they can be trusted as they grow.
If they mess up a small punishment is in order and that teaches then a lesson.

You will have us believe that coming home with a speeding ticket where the child is now grounded and must get a summer job to pay for the fine is equal to a life of sin where the punishment is to burn every second of every day for all of eternity.

If you KNEW that your child, grandchild, spouse, neighbor or sibling was going to take your vehicle and hit 140mph and die in a fiery crash while hitting a bridge pillar, would you hand them the keys and say "be careful"?

And add to it...
You built a 5 mile long totally flat asphalt road with a bridge pillar smack in the middle of the lane. Then you give them the keys and say, drive safe.....
You and your version of god set up all of the possibilities to fail.

 

[WaltL1]

Definition of mercy

plural mercies
1 a : compassion or forbearance (see forbearance 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power; also : lenient or compassionate treatment

Read that definition closely.
Now think - flood story as an example.

compassion or forbearance (see forbearance 1) shown especially to an offender

Everybody except Noah and family (which includes women, children, babies, unborn babies) were deemed the "offenders".

or to one subject to one's power

Which would be everyone and everything.

lenient or compassionate treatment

Loud buzzer sound.

And note -

shown especially to an offender

 

[atlashunter]

I never understood this line of thinking even as a believer. Prayer can change nothing other than possibly a persons mindset. In a meditation sense if you will.

If the family gathers around grandma dying of cancer and she dies anyway, it was gods will. His ways not ours. If she lives, it was also his will from the beginning of time. Praying was essentially a waste of time as she was meant to live as part of his master plan.

I agree with this but I don't think most believers do. The Bible says ask and you shall receive.

 

[atlashunter]

The answer HAS to be, MUST be yes.
And what I mean when I said this -

No point in lifting a finger to help anyone if you really believe it's part of his plan. If the believer really believes that kids lot in life is just then walk over and whisper in their ear. Explain it to them. God knew you and had a plan for you before you were even conceived. He knew the number of hairs on your head even while you were in your mothers womb. He has a plan for your life little one. And this is part of it. You've starved and suffered in a war ravaged country. You're to suffer and be abandoned. His plan is for you to be alone and too weakened from malnourishment to move. The flies and ants will harass you relentlessly. The sun will burn your tender skin. You'll cry in misery but help will not come. The vultures are gathering around to consume you. Even now god is watching with folded arms. He is a just god and his plans are just. You're getting exactly what you deserve and for that reason I can't intervene in his plan and help you.

 

[WaltL1]

No point in lifting a finger to help anyone if you really believe it's part of his plan. If the believer really believes that kids lot in life is just then walk over and whisper in their ear. Explain it to them. God knew you and had a plan for you before you were even conceived. He knew the number of hairs on your head even while you were in your mothers womb. He has a plan for your life little one. And this is part of it. You've starved and suffered in a war ravaged country. You're to suffer and be abandoned. His plan is for you to be alone and too weakened from malnourishment to move. The flies and ants will harass you relentlessly. The sun will burn your tender skin. You'll cry in misery but help will not come. The vultures are gathering around to consume you. Even now god is watching with folded arms. He is a just god and his plans are just. You're getting exactly what you deserve and for that reason I can't intervene in his plan and help you.

Geez you are pretty good at painting a ghastly picture
You've actually got me angry.
And the kicker is, you aren't even having to stretch the truth based on Christian beliefs.

 

[Spotlite]

Part of his plan?

His Will is that no one will parish, and if it takes a famine to turn a people around......

I admit that I once struggled with images such as this until I realized that the relationship between God and his people is no different than the one between me and my children. He takes care of his, I take care of mine. A people that have not turned to God are not his. Not an exact quote but the righteous are not forsaken nor his seed will beg for bread.

I’m not obligated to deliver pizza to every house every day, but if someone knocks on my door or approached me for food, I will feed them.

 

[Israel]

Read that definition closely.
Now think - flood story as an example.

Everybody except Noah and family (which includes women, children, babies, unborn babies) were deemed the "offenders".

Which would be everyone and everything.

Loud buzzer sound.

And note -

Yes.

shown especially to an offender

I am in no position to find fault with anyone.

 

[Spotlite]

Speeding ticket/burning for all of eternity.

I can see that you in no way want to even get close to touching what the real stakes are.

Do you leave a loaded handgun on the kitchen table and let your children and their friends prove themselves?

As a parent you do as much as possible to prevent harm to loved ones with the foresight that you can possibly see. You hope that you have prepared your children well enough and that they can be trusted as they grow.
If they mess up a small punishment is in order and that teaches then a lesson.

You will have us believe that coming home with a speeding ticket where the child is now grounded and must get a summer job to pay for the fine is equal to a life of sin where the punishment is to burn every second of every day for all of eternity.

If you KNEW that your child, grandchild, spouse, neighbor or sibling was going to take your vehicle and hit 140mph and die in a fiery crash while hitting a bridge pillar, would you hand them the keys and say "be careful"?

And add to it...
You built a 5 mile long totally flat asphalt road with a bridge pillar smack in the middle of the lane. Then you give them the keys and say, drive safe.....
You and your version of god set up all of the possibilities to fail.

No, I do realize the stakes are higher. I chose to use a comparison that had nothing to do with religion just for the sake of conversation to get away from religion.

I do realize that the outcomes are much different in the two.

But since the two are sort of mingled now, yes as a parent I will do whatever it takes to protect my child. But if he goes out there and just gets stupid and ends up wrecking because of his actions, who’s fault is that? Who’s fault is it if someone runs a red light and hits him?

Am I reading this right - the non believer thinks that for God to exist, then all the bad stuff just goes away? Because bad stuff happens, there can’t be a God?

 

[atlashunter]

His Will is that no one will parish, and if it takes a famine to turn a people around......

I admit that I once struggled with images such as this until I realized that the relationship between God and his people is no different than the one between me and my children. He takes care of his, I take care of mine. A people that have not turned to God are not his. Not an exact quote but the righteous are not forsaken nor his seed will beg for bread.

I’m not obligated to deliver pizza to every house every day, but if someone knocks on my door or approached me for food, I will feed them.

Aside from a very poor defense of the indefensible (I really hope you don't starve and drown your children when they are on your naughty list) I guess you don't realize that South Sudan is predominantly Christian.

 

[WaltL1]

Yes.



I am in no position to find fault with anyone.

Sounds noble on the surface Israel.
In my opinion, upon deeper investigation its just a cop out. Letting yourself off the hook. Turning a blind eye.
Possibly for completely selfish reasons.

A thief is in no position to find fault with a thief.
A murderer is in no position to find fault with a murderer.
As per the example (flood story) if you aren't guilty of an equal action then........

 

[WaltL1]

No, I do realize the stakes are higher. I chose to use a comparison that had nothing to do with religion just for the sake of conversation to get away from religion.

I do realize that the outcomes are much different in the two.

But since the two are sort of mingled now, yes as a parent I will do whatever it takes to protect my child. But if he goes out there and just gets stupid and ends up wrecking because of his actions, who’s fault is that? Who’s fault is it if someone runs a red light and hits him?

Am I reading this right - the non believer thinks that for God to exist, then all the bad stuff just goes away? Because bad stuff happens, there can’t be a God?

I chose to use a comparison that had nothing to do with religion just for the sake of conversation to get away from religion.

You can't.
Why not?
Because there is no comparison you can make where one of the participants is Omni-everything.
It changes the whole ball game.

 

[bullethead]

His Will is that no one will parish, and if it takes a famine to turn a people around......

I admit that I once struggled with images such as this until I realized that the relationship between God and his people is no different than the one between me and my children. He takes care of his, I take care of mine. A people that have not turned to God are not his. Not an exact quote but the righteous are not forsaken nor his seed will beg for bread.

I’m not obligated to deliver pizza to every house every day, but if someone knocks on my door or approached me for food, I will feed them.

Is god the father and creator of all people?

Would you turn your back to a child of yours if they thought they knew better and left the home at 18 and did thier own thing? Are they still your child and are you still their father?

 

[atlashunter]

I am in no position to find fault with anyone.

Then you are likewise in no position to proclaim his goodness. If you are going to recuse yourself then do it completely, not just when it is convenient.

 

[bullethead]

No, I do realize the stakes are higher. I chose to use a comparison that had nothing to do with religion just for the sake of conversation to get away from religion.

I do realize that the outcomes are much different in the two.

But since the two are sort of mingled now, yes as a parent I will do whatever it takes to protect my child. But if he goes out there and just gets stupid and ends up wrecking because of his actions, who’s fault is that? Who’s fault is it if someone runs a red light and hits him?

Am I reading this right - the non believer thinks that for God to exist, then all the bad stuff just goes away? Because bad stuff happens, there can’t be a God?

If you were capable of preventing harm to anyone that you care about would you do it?


You are not reading it right.
What you are reading is the argument against an all loving all caring father.
You are reading the arguments against a man made deity.

 

[atlashunter]

You can't.
Why not?
Because there is no comparison you can make where one of the participants is Omni-everything.
It changes the whole ball game.

Parent places a venomous snake in the room with a child. Tells the child not to touch the snake while knowing the child will be curious and touch the snake and knowing the child will die. Stands back and watches the kid touch the snake, get bit, and die. Parent is charged with murder. Parent says the child was warned and it was their choice therefore his hands are clean. Spotlite is on the jury. Reckon how he votes?