Slave woman and her son?

[Artfuldodger]

I think I understand the spiritual part better than the physical part.
Thus the questions about Israel. Physical Israel vs spiritual Israel.
Then there is the concept of going to the spiritual Jerusalem as a spirit only to return to earth for a body to live in physical Israel again.
Somehow though it's hard to read Isaiah and Joel and not see something in the future that is physical. Then in Ephesians and Romans we see something different that is being revealed by Paul. It appears to be physical and futuristic. Gentiles without God being grafted in. A Jewish remnant chosen and the rest hardened until the full number of Gentiles come in. This sounds physical to me. Election on account of the patriarchs. Maybe it changes to spiritual later.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

When you say God created an ever spiritual being in a physical body, do you see a beginning of this ever spiritual being? I mean we were created, we have a beginning. Unlike Jesus who existed before becoming a spiritual being in a physical body.

I have often pondered the question of when the spiritual being is created. I haven't been able to find a biblical reference to point me in the right direction. I don't know if this part of me was created during creation, waiting for my physical body to be made, or was it created at the moment my physical body was created?

I honestly don't have an answer, or even a hint to the answer from the Bible

 

[Artfuldodger]

Promises to the patriarchs;
Romans 11:28
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I still haven't found a good answer as to how this benefits the Gentiles. Yet God still loves Israel because of the patriarchs.
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"

3 general promises to the patriarchs;

“I will make you a great nation”
“I will give you this land”
“In you (your seed) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Even if we say #3 is Jesus, what about 1 & 2? Is God promising to make spiritual Israel a great nation? Is God promising to give spiritual Israel land?
Again it sounds physical. If it does change some where along the way from physical to spiritual, Paul is having a terrible time explaining it this way in Romans 11.

If the promises never were to the patriarchs based on "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise" then again Paul isn't explaining it that way in Romans 11.

In Romans 11 Paul says;
"God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."

 

[Artfuldodger]

every time I turn over a rock, there is something new and a deeper meaning to the scripture I have learned. I learned so much on the 10 day trip to Israel 2 years ago, I have tried to go back, but haven't been able. If the Lord wills, I will be going back there one day.

Just the things I was able to learn about jewish festivals, and tradition, or why things are done in certain order, was eye opening. Each festival is a shadow of foretelling of a future event. To see how they all line up.... I just can't describe it.

I've been told to remove physical Israel from Christianity. Some say it never was and others say it was replaced. True they can find scripture to show me this. The offspring of Abraham never was genetic or it changed to not being genetic.
The more I read in scripture, the more rocks I overturn to find this truth, the more I see it as pertaining to Israel than the other direction.
I wasn't raised with this mindset. I read Romans 9-10 and it opened my mind to look at the Old Testament scriptures that Romans 9-10 pointed to.

The more I tried to remove the Jewish aspect from Christianity's origins, the more scripture added it back.

 

[1gr8bldr]

1gr8bldr,
That's a great way to view the spiritualism or journey of Christianity. To change from flesh to spirit so to speak. I wish more Christians saw Christianity in this light as it pertains to God's power instead of theirs.
While I can see and understand that side of Christianity I also see a physical side as well. Do you view a time when everyone will become spiritual and not any longer physical? Meaning a time in the future when Jesus will return and remove all godlessness from Jacob? Without our help of course. Will God open the eyes of physical Israel before we all make the spiritual crossover to spiritual Israel?
How do you view the account as told in Romans 11?

I believe they will be saved because of the promise, that it is literal and not figurative. For us their journey is figurative of our spiritual journey, however.... I believe their blindness is figurative to us as well. Both the Jews and socalled Christians have to have the veil removed. "they said, did we not drive out demons in your name" one example of the many that will be, likely, did we not go to church every sunday, did we not go on mission trips, and he will say, depart, I never knew you. Eyes to see and ears to hear. However, I'm not advocating that preachers push everyone to get resaved.

 

[1gr8bldr]

As I mentioned, I went to a Passover meal. I wish everyone could witness it. It was over 2 hours of the most ritualistic stuff you could imagine. The reading aloud of texts in the form of "sayings" The open door so "he" could come in because of the domineering context that he is coming. On one hand, the most boring thing you could imagine, yet you realize the importance of maintaining this from one generation to the next. Doing it exactly like it was done 500 years ago so that it was unable to evolve into something else. Boring in the ritual sense, amazing in another sense. To realize their longing and expectation of the coming Messiah..... to realize they just missed him, that he had come, and will come again, at which time the veil will be lifted. They will not fall for the antichrist which is already here.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Promises to the patriarchs;
Romans 11:28
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I still haven't found a good answer as to how this benefits the Gentiles. Yet God still loves Israel because of the patriarchs.
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"

3 general promises to the patriarchs;

“I will make you a great nation”
“I will give you this land”
“In you (your seed) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Even if we say #3 is Jesus, what about 1 & 2? Is God promising to make spiritual Israel a great nation? Is God promising to give spiritual Israel land?
Again it sounds physical. If it does change some where along the way from physical to spiritual, Paul is having a terrible time explaining it this way in Romans 11.

If the promises never were to the patriarchs based on "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise" then again Paul isn't explaining it that way in Romans 11.

In Romans 11 Paul says;
"God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."

Abraham was promised "I will be with you" as opposed to them building a tower to reach the heavens. Abraham was promised "i will make your name great" as opposed to him "making a name for himself" And he was promised "I will build you a city" as opposed to them building "with man made brick and tar". Abraham walked away from the tower of babel, called out by God to another way of religion. He did not know where he was going, but went. A new way of obtaining "the righteousness for which we hope" "A righteousness that is by faith, from first to last". Where we "wait through the spirit for the righteousness for which we hope". Christianity as we know it has not waited patiently for our natures to be changed by this promise but has tried to help God fullfill the promise by our own means of obtaining righteousness by our best efforts. This is Ishmael. The promise comes through Issac. Eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Spineyman]

Promises to the patriarchs;
Romans 11:28
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I still haven't found a good answer as to how this benefits the Gentiles. Yet God still loves Israel because of the patriarchs.
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"

3 general promises to the patriarchs;

“I will make you a great nation”
“I will give you this land”
“In you (your seed) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Even if we say #3 is Jesus, what about 1 & 2? Is God promising to make spiritual Israel a great nation? Is God promising to give spiritual Israel land?
Again it sounds physical. If it does change some where along the way from physical to spiritual, Paul is having a terrible time explaining it this way in Romans 11.

If the promises never were to the patriarchs based on "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise" then again Paul isn't explaining it that way in Romans 11.

In Romans 11 Paul says;
"God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."
"but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."

Yes God did indeed have a Covenant with Abraham and later Israel. They broke covenant with God by not doing as He told them to do. The judgement on Israel was a Covenant lawsuit by the Law giver. Remember just because you are forgiven, there are still consequences for your actions.They are paying for their disobedience. But rest assured God will indeed restore His promised People back to good standings with Him.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I believe they will be saved because of the promise, that it is literal and not figurative. For us their journey is figurative of our spiritual journey, however.... I believe their blindness is figurative to us as well. Both the Jews and socalled Christians have to have the veil removed. "they said, did we not drive out demons in your name" one example of the many that will be, likely, did we not go to church every sunday, did we not go on mission trips, and he will say, depart, I never knew you. Eyes to see and ears to hear. However, I'm not advocating that preachers push everyone to get resaved.

When will this veil be removed so that both the Jews and blinded Christians will finally see that their fruit must come from God instead of themselves?

 

[1gr8bldr]

When will this veil be removed so that both the Jews and blinded Christians will finally see that their fruit must come from God instead of themselves?

I do not know. I'm weak on this area. I'm not sure I would call it blinded Christians? Sounds like an oxymoran.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I do not know. I'm weak on this area. I'm not sure I would call it blinded Christians? Sounds like an oxymoran.

You said "Both the Jews and so called Christians have to have the veil removed."

Regardless whether Jews or Gentiles, for either to be Christians the veil has to be removed. For either to gain salvation they must become Christians. They must believe.
Now we are getting into that area of what God has done or foreknown in his word.
The way I read it in Romans 11 is that after a remnant from Israel was chosen, the rest was blinded. Perhaps this is a veil. Maybe their path is a mirror of our path.

Back to Romans 11, this was done to allow salvation to the Gentiles. I don't really understand that even as often as I've read it. Regardless Paul explains later that we won't understand it.

Until! until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Paul explains it using a tree analogy. Natural branches removed and unnatural branches added. Then later all Israel will be saved and the natural branches added back in.

This done on accord of the love of the patriarchs based on God's love and foreknowledge of them. Some promises God made specifically to them.

Next Paul explains that we won't understand this mystery;
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?”

In other words what I think most Christians see and understand and as you are reiterating is that it's not our works but God's grace. God's plan. God's creation. God's foreknowledge. Basically God's everything. God can remove blindness and replace it with light. A light that will let even a Jew believe.

Important next verse;
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[Israel]

I do not know. I'm weak on this area. I'm not sure I would call it blinded Christians? Sounds like an oxymoran.

Didn't Paul suffer in this same thing? How many warnings against a presumption that was not of faith (for no presumption is) but had the lingering odor of the flesh. Preferences, choices (heresies), imaginings of boast-worthy attainments that he saw would only lead to a ruin?

And in one place...seeing these things spoke:

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Yes...Paul knew the price of seeing things in a desire that burned him deeply. He knew the seeing was above all...free to him, a gift, a work of mercy and grace. But, ahhh, the things learned of that mercy and grace so that others might freely see, also. Something breaks.

Must break.


Open.

 

[1gr8bldr]

You said "Both the Jews and so called Christians have to have the veil removed."

Regardless whether Jews or Gentiles, for either to be Christians the veil has to be removed. For either to gain salvation they must become Christians. They must believe.
Now we are getting into that area of what God has done or foreknown in his word.
The way I read it in Romans 11 is that after a remnant from Israel was chosen, the rest was blinded. Perhaps this is a veil. Maybe their path is a mirror of our path.

Back to Romans 11, this was done to allow salvation to the Gentiles. I don't really understand that even as often as I've read it. Regardless Paul explains later that we won't understand it.

Until! until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Paul explains it using a tree analogy. Natural branches removed and unnatural branches added. Then later all Israel will be saved and the natural branches added back in.

This done on accord of the love of the patriarchs based on God's love and foreknowledge of them. Some promises God made specifically to them.

Next Paul explains that we won't understand this mystery;
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?”

In other words what I think most Christians see and understand and as you are reiterating is that it's not our works but God's grace. God's plan. God's creation. God's foreknowledge. Basically God's everything. God can remove blindness and replace it with light. A light that will let even a Jew believe.

Important next verse;
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

When I say, so called Christians, I mean it as though who know parts, yet don't know. Salvation comes to those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Here is a major difference/divider. What/who is the son of God, what does it mean. 2 camps here, one from the OT and another that uses a NT only mindset. One group is wrong. Could be my group. All religions believe wholeheartedly that they are right and most use the scripture as their proof. It's the "scattered" from the tower of babel. One day, we will be called back from the scattered to the ends of the earth, the "scattered veil" will be lifted and no more confusion, thus you see where my other thread title idea originated from

 

[1gr8bldr]

You said "Both the Jews and so called Christians have to have the veil removed."

Regardless whether Jews or Gentiles, for either to be Christians the veil has to be removed. For either to gain salvation they must become Christians. They must believe.
Now we are getting into that area of what God has done or foreknown in his word.
The way I read it in Romans 11 is that after a remnant from Israel was chosen, the rest was blinded. Perhaps this is a veil. Maybe their path is a mirror of our path.

Back to Romans 11, this was done to allow salvation to the Gentiles. I don't really understand that even as often as I've read it. Regardless Paul explains later that we won't understand it.

Until! until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Paul explains it using a tree analogy. Natural branches removed and unnatural branches added. Then later all Israel will be saved and the natural branches added back in.

This done on accord of the love of the patriarchs based on God's love and foreknowledge of them. Some promises God made specifically to them.

Next Paul explains that we won't understand this mystery;
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?”

In other words what I think most Christians see and understand and as you are reiterating is that it's not our works but God's grace. God's plan. God's creation. God's foreknowledge. Basically God's everything. God can remove blindness and replace it with light. A light that will let even a Jew believe.

Important next verse;
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

I think sometimes we work backwards as if the Jews were first, then the gentiles, and scripture even alludes to such, however, not really..... Abraham was promised, before the law that "all nations shall be blessed through you". When Jesus came, Abraham would not have been surprised that he was coming to save "all" and not the Jews only. So I say this meaning "All" was actually first in promise. Then he gave the law, then the "all" times reached fullfillment, the word became flesh, came to pass.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Didn't Paul suffer in this same thing? How many warnings against a presumption that was not of faith (for no presumption is) but had the lingering odor of the flesh. Preferences, choices (heresies), imaginings of boast-worthy attainments that he saw would only lead to a ruin?

And in one place...seeing these things spoke:

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Yes...Paul knew the price of seeing things in a desire that burned him deeply. He knew the seeing was above all...free to him, a gift, a work of mercy and grace. But, ahhh, the things learned of that mercy and grace so that others might freely see, also. Something breaks.

Must break.


Open.

Israel, I enjoy reading your post. They are insightful and prompt me into deep thought. They come across in a poetic sort of way. I have often wondered if you simply write this way or do you have some sort of profession that has cultivated your poetic style. Often times, I admit, it's over my head. However, I wholly believe that our gospel has much mystery within it, and when I see what looks to be over my head, I never consider it babel, I consider it knowledge I have not been given, that I'm just blind to it. We only have what we have been given, so more, some less, some more of one thing, another more of another thing, and it's all given. LOL, here I am trying to see if I can write like you style

 

[hobbs27]

Romans 9: I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


Anyone can claim to be a Jew all they want. It means nothing. One must be a child of the promise which is not by flesh, but through Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Didn't Paul suffer in this same thing? How many warnings against a presumption that was not of faith (for no presumption is) but had the lingering odor of the flesh. Preferences, choices (heresies), imaginings of boast-worthy attainments that he saw would only lead to a ruin?

And in one place...seeing these things spoke:

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Yes...Paul knew the price of seeing things in a desire that burned him deeply. He knew the seeing was above all...free to him, a gift, a work of mercy and grace. But, ahhh, the things learned of that mercy and grace so that others might freely see, also. Something breaks.
Must break.
Open.

Excellent example in Paul. Paul had to have the veil removed. I guess the argument was when did he become a child of God?
In that respect when will Israel be grafted back in? When will their veil be lifted?
When will they become children of God?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 9: I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


Anyone can claim to be a Jew all they want. It means nothing. One must be a child of the promise which is not by flesh, but through Christ.

Most assuredly I'm with you. No doubt about it. Now did it become this way after Israel refused or has the children of the promise never been genetic children of Abraham? Did something happen to make it switch? Is this the mystery revealed by Paul?

So if Romans 9 says it switched or it's always been why did Paul say in Romans 11;
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

If their was no longer Jew or Gentile or there never was, It doesn't sound like that is what Paul is saying in Romans 11. He is saying that they just haven't had their veil removed like Paul had.

 

[hobbs27]

Art... It switched with the changing of the covenant.

Go back to Galatians 4. The two covenants. One flesh, and one of the promise.
The old covenant Israelites served more so as servants of God, awaiting the adoption into the family. Until Jesus established a new covenant, there were none as children or receivers of the inheritance... The inheritance being the kingdom and eternal life.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Art... It switched with the changing of the covenant.

Go back to Galatians 4. The two covenants. One flesh, and one of the promise.
The old covenant Israelites served more so as servants of God, awaiting the adoption into the family. Until Jesus established a new covenant, there were none as children or receivers of the inheritance... The inheritance being the kingdom and eternal life.

Are you saying that no one had eternal life prior to Christ's death?