Atheism Has A Suicide Problem

[bullethead]

How many?
Why?

 

[Israel]

Its a complicated question. Or maybe its only complicated if we make it complicated. To my way of thinking (notice I said "my way" and not "the right way") I don't see a whole lot of difference between -





And say, what we call "suicide by cop" -
The criminal does know whats going to happen.
Says to himself "if I bust through that front door with my gun in hand they will shoot and kill me".
Knowing that ^, the precise purpose for busting through the door is to be shot and killed by the cops.
Could have done lots of other things to help/avoid. Give up, throw the gun out, not burst through the door with gun in hand.......
Neither the criminal nor Jesus "pulled the trigger" on themselves.
But both took actions to move forward knowing, accepting and making their death happen.
If one is considered suicide (by cop) wasn't Jesus's death suicide (by Romans)?

Did the man who accepted his own death purposely, knowingly and in fact intentionally put himself in that situation and purposely not get himself out of that situation?
If so, "who pulled the trigger" seems an insignificant fact to me.

That seems fair enough if we must absolutely take the criminal and Jesus as equal in knowing.
(But you know, I believe, I do not)
Jesus was absolutely sure of His death.

And I am not at all unaware this seems to only make the case even stronger.

Maybe you read my own version of "suicide by cop/mutawi" I once entertained...when strung between the frustrations of this world, and all the unfitness I saw in myself to enter the next...my religiosity at that time was so strong (and now laughable) that I thought I could force a hand...to take me as martyr.

(An aside...as a nurse I have taken care of men who put the gun to their temple...and done little more than leave themselves now blind. I have taken care of men who have had men put muzzle to their chest...and left them paraplegic...so even guns...and even cop guns and aim...)

So...Jesus absolutely sure on the one hand of His death...with no less a confidence that 12 legions of angles were at His disposal. And I have to add, legitimately so...

That's like "doubling down" on the notion of intent to be "done away with".

It might be...(you know I talk like a fool) a soldier who has an impact safe blanket he could throw...but yet chooses to jump on the grenade.

But, it's not that at all really.

The saving of comrades required a doing "in the flesh" for a deliverance "from the flesh" in which the comrades are held captive. And likewise their minds in every consideration of God...which was all previously subject to deception.

And apart from the resurrection...the very thing "aimed at" for the comrades, but that couldn't take place (first in Christ...and with and for those in Him) without a death.

The world may be full of religious martyrs, political martyrs, ideological martyrs.

There is a death...to do away with something pernicious. Which unlike all other "martyrs" is not to the end of merely showing or parading their own devotion. Or even conviction.

Jesus as a man lived by something inside that men need to have, must have, cannot live without the having...and do not live...without the having...and was sent as deliverer. He knew/knows there was/is only one way to release what is inside Him...to man. His death in the flesh (though well preceded daily by His death to the flesh)...is making that way...manifest. So, He was made willing to appear...an accursed thing in His hanging. Yet we are told...despising the shame (so much for those who think Jesus a masochist). He knew what He was/is doing.


"This command I have received of my Father"

His resurrection is what gives sight, shows by "what" Jesus lived and lives, so that even death in all its most grizzly dealing to a surety and humiliation...could not hold. And its power...broken.

I highly recommend you look inside.

The man "alone" facing death (in every one of its myriad forms) need not be, and is not, through Christ.

Mercy and forgiveness is granted every man who "knows not what he does"...by the ONLY one who knew perfectly, and precisely...His purpose. And never strayed from it...knowing its cost...but no less knowing, and convinced above that...of its glory.

How free...is free?

 

[bullethead]

That seems fair enough if we must absolutely take the criminal and Jesus as equal in knowing.
(But you know, I believe, I do not)
Jesus was absolutely sure of His death.

And I am not at all unaware this seems to only make the case even stronger.

Maybe you read my own version of "suicide by cop/mutawi" I once entertained...when strung between the frustrations of this world, and all the unfitness I saw in myself to enter the next...my religiosity at that time was so strong (and now laughable) that I thought I could force a hand...to take me as martyr.

(An aside...as a nurse I have taken care of men who put the gun to their temple...and done little more than leave themselves now blind. I have taken care of men who have had men put muzzle to their chest...and left them paraplegic...so even guns...and even cop guns and aim...)

So...Jesus absolutely sure on the one hand of His death...with no less a confidence that 12 legions of angles were at His disposal. And I have to add, legitimately so...

That's like "doubling down" on the notion of intent to be "done away with".

It might be...(you know I talk like a fool) a soldier who has an impact safe blanket he could throw...but yet chooses to jump on the grenade.

But, it's not that at all really.

The saving of comrades required a doing "in the flesh" for a deliverance "from the flesh" in which the comrades are held captive. And likewise their minds in every consideration of God...which was all previously subject to deception.

And apart from the resurrection...the very thing "aimed at" for the comrades, but that couldn't take place (first in Christ...and with and for those in Him) without a death.

The world may be full of religious martyrs, political martyrs, ideological martyrs.

There is a death...to do away with something pernicious. Which unlike all other "martyrs" is not to the end of merely showing or parading their own devotion. Or even conviction.

Jesus as a man lived by something inside that men need to have, must have, cannot live without the having...and do not live...without the having...and was sent as deliverer. He knew/knows there was/is only one way to release what is inside Him...to man. His death in the flesh (though well preceded daily by His death to the flesh)...is making that way...manifest. So, He was made willing to appear...an accursed thing in His hanging. Yet we are told...despising the shame (so much for those who think Jesus a masochist). He knew what He was/is doing.


"This command I have received of my Father"

His resurrection is what gives sight, shows by "what" Jesus lived and lives, so that even death in all its most grizzly dealing to a surety and humiliation...could not hold. And its power...broken.

I highly recommend you look inside.

The man "alone" facing death (in every one of its myriad forms) need not be, and is not, through Christ.

Mercy and forgiveness is granted every man who "knows not what he does"...by the ONLY one who knew perfectly, and precisely...His purpose. And never strayed from it...knowing its cost...but no less knowing, and convinced above that...of its glory.

How free...is free?

Don't forget about wannabe internet Martyr's

 

[Spotlite]

Why wouldn't anyone take the question seriously? That sounds like an excuse not to examine or admit anything. What you posted is another long way around a simple answer of Yes or No.
I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.

Is it One god the father, Two god the father and Jesus the son , or Three god, Jesus and the holy spirit?

Are they separate or one?

One God. Different manifestations

 

[bullethead]

One God. Different manifestations

Oh.
So God sent a version of himself to sacrifice?

 

[Spotlite]

"In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?"

Its a complicated question..................... Or maybe its only complicated if we make it complicated

I think we can make it complicated.

the definition of suicide does NOT include "why"

Suicide - "intentionally taking one`s own life", the motive may answer the "why". Risk factors include depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, substance abuse, etc., that can lead to suicide.

Under the suicide definition, "other suicides" are impulsive acts due to financial stress, troubled relationships or bullying. Impulsivity is a tendency to act on a whim displaying behavior characterized by little or no forethought, reflection, or consideration of the consequences. Typically poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, or inappropriate to the situation that often result in undesirable consequences.

Rational Suicide - is the reasoned taking of one`s own life although others consider suicide as never rational. End of life decision for terminally ill that was recently discussed???? Doesn't appear to be an impulsive act.

Altruistic suicide - is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society. This one gets a Medal of Honor.

Depending on the motive for the two men in the question above, this could be "Suicide" or "Rational suicide" for both, and or "Altruistic suicide" for the man that does nothing to stop his own death.

The term suicide appears to be an umbrella for the acts of "intentionally taking one`s own life", and the "sacrificing of one`s life".

Motive would determine how it is defined, and it appears that a difference is considered between the "taking" as in you do it yourself, and the "sacrifice" as in offering or surrendering.

 

[Spotlite]

Oh.
So God sent a version of himself to sacrifice?

simple answer of Yes or No.
I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.
Are they separate or one?

I gave a simple "one"

 

[WaltL1]

"In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?"


I think we can make it complicated.

Suicide - "intentionally taking one`s own life", the motive may answer the "why". Risk factors include depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, substance abuse, etc., that can lead to suicide.

Under the suicide definition, "other suicides" are impulsive acts due to financial stress, troubled relationships or bullying. Impulsivity is a tendency to act on a whim displaying behavior characterized by little or no forethought, reflection, or consideration of the consequences. Typically poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, or inappropriate to the situation that often result in undesirable consequences.

Rational Suicide - is the reasoned taking of one`s own life although others consider suicide as never rational. End of life decision for terminally ill that was recently discussed???? Doesn't appear to be an impulsive act.

Altruistic suicide - is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society. This one gets a Medal of Honor.

Depending on the motive for the two men in the question above, this could be "Suicide" or "Rational suicide" for both, and or "Altruistic suicide" for the man that does nothing to stop his own death.

The term suicide appears to be an umbrella for the acts of "intentionally taking one`s own life", and the "sacrificing of one`s life".

Motive would determine how it is defined, and it appears that a difference is considered between the "taking" as in you do it yourself, and the "sacrifice" as in offering or surrendering.

Yep we can make it complicated.
Or we can make it simple -
All of the above still fall under "suicide" (rational, altruistic...).
Kind of like tomatoes. There are Roma, Cherry, Beef steak, Better Boy.....
All different but all tomatoes.
IF Jesus had the power to get himself out of that situation one way or another, a pretty good argument could made that he committed Altruistic suicide.

Altruistic suicide - is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society.

 

[Israel]

If one is considered suicide (by cop) wasn't Jesus's death suicide (by Romans)?

It appears yes...doesn't it? But it is all of no.

Truth appears in a place where truth is not known.

The Lord appears in grace...as one voice amongst so very many...and willing to be so.

Appears in a vessel there as subject to all the things every other speaking/acting vessel is subject to.

No man can bring any other to see the grace in this.

And truth will yet, must yet, suffer what it always has in the place where it is not known.

And the grace is that the Prince of Life, who is life itself...is made willing to appear as loving death...when in truth, He is loving God, His Father.

And no man sees this unless:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Till then Pilate's words are heard in every false voice, every mouth, every gathering of men together to make war against God and His anointed.

But He who sits in the Heavens laughs as men with double tongues inherited, square off against His Son and say "Don't you know who I am? I have the power to kill you or let you go".

And God, yet in grace...lets them say this. That they might see all the power they do not have...(that is) over the Son of God.


Who's your daddy?

The Word...makes it plain.

 

[WaltL1]

Yep we can make it complicated.
Or we can make it simple -
All of the above still fall under "suicide" (rational, altruistic...).
Kind of like tomatoes. There are Roma, Cherry, Beef steak, Better Boy.....
All different but all tomatoes.
IF Jesus had the power to get himself out of that situation one way or another, a pretty good argument could made that he committed Altruistic suicide.

Jesus could do stuff -

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/life-of-jesus/miracles/what-miracles-did-jesus-perform.html

Would I be remiss to contend he could have gotten out of Dodge if he wanted to? Or maybe turned his executioners into loaves of bread or something? Roman spears into feathery tickle things?
If he could and didn't, then he did this -

Altruistic suicide - is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society.

 

[bullethead]

I gave a simple "one"

I am trying expound on the initial simple one now.
When I was a christian, I didn't want to try to explain it either. Truth is you cannot without stepping on the toes of christianity.
They are individuals at times, one at times, human or spirits...and all depend upon what excuse (that totally contradicts the others) needs to fit at the time.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience.

 

[WaltL1]

I am trying expound on the initial simple one now.
When I was a christian, I didn't want to try to explain it either. Truth is you cannot without stepping on the toes of christianity.
They are individuals at times, one at times, human or spirits...and all depend upon what excuse (that totally contradicts the others) needs to fit at the time.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience.

If you are trying to sell monotheism to a polytheistic believing people, then the idea of polytheism "light" is a good sales tactic. They get to look at it as more than one but you get to claim its just one. Everybodys happy.

 

[Spotlite]

IF Jesus had the power to get himself out of that situation one way or another, a pretty good argument could made that he committed Altruistic suicide.

And terminology is where we make it complicated. And it would be a valid argument.

Fallacies of definition can be overly or narrowly broad. Another good argument would use narrowly broad to argue that it was an act of Valor. Hence, the Colonel received a Medal of Honor.

 

[atlashunter]

If you are trying to sell monotheism to a polytheistic believing people, then the idea of polytheism "light" is a good sales tactic. They get to look at it as more than one but you get to claim its just one. Everybodys happy.

Like a buy one get two free kind of deal. But it’s still one.

 

[Spotlite]

Would I be remiss to contend he could have gotten out of Dodge if he wanted to? Or maybe turned his executioners into loaves of bread or something? Roman spears into feathery tickle things?
If he could and didn't, then he did this -

Could have, yes. But the outcome would have been ineffective.

 

[WaltL1]

Could have, yes. But the outcome would have been ineffective.

Yep. That's the point.
And if he got out of Dodge what would have been ineffective?
His mission to -

Altruistic suicide - is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society.

For that to happen he didn't get out of Dodge, he didn't turn them into loaves of bread, he didn't...... but he could have.
He sacrificed his life for what he believed would save or benefit others (us).
Altruistic suicide.
But suicide none the less.

 

[bullethead]

Yep. That's the point.
And if he got out of Dodge what would have been ineffective?
His mission to -

For that to happen he didn't get out of Dodge, he didn't turn them into loaves of bread, he didn't...... but he could have.
He sacrificed his life for what he believed would save or benefit others (us).
Altruistic suicide.
But suicide none the less.

If we bring God into it, a whole new can of worms opens up.

If Jesus/God are one and the same...then yes a suicide. (Sort of)

But they couldn't be the same if Jesus was talking to God and not talking to himself. And if God made/sent Jesus then they are individuals.
If they are individuals then God made a predetermined plan that Jesus was born to die on the cross no matter what Jesus or the people wanted. If Jesus had powers to walk away or even free will, God hit the override button and nixed them.
Suicide turns into a predetermined yet short term death sentence.

It couldn't really be a sacrifice because God lost nothing. Jesus lost nothing.

To me it sounds like an ancient story that on the surface sounds like compelling love but actually turns out to be a win/win for a God that couldn't come up with a better plan.

The fix was on from the beginning.

Hey kid, since before you were born I had this plan. Im gonna raise you very low key like and then hire you as fry cook. You will be set up and falsely accused of stealing and fired by the manager to be made an example of for your fellow employees, but since daddy owns the company I will promote you to CEO in a couple days.
You will have my office with three names on the door even though the face of the company will now be you. But if anyone calls you will have to answer in a different voice and let them think they may be talking to me one time and you the other and even a third guy (H. S. we'll call him) who has access to the company benefits but is out on the road a lot moving personnel. Basically whoever calls, let them think there are three of us here who all are in charge of operations. If they ask to speak to the manager either take it yourself or just put them on hold for a second while you "transfer" them and pop back on the line in a different voice. They think that the "company" is a one man operation. Kind of like One Guy's Burgers but with Larry, Darryl and Darryl running the show. It seems confusing but it really is not if you don't think about it at all. That's what we count on here at One Guy's Burgers.

 

[WaltL1]

If we bring God into it, a whole new can of worms opens up.

If Jesus/God are one and the same...then yes a suicide. (Sort of)

But they couldn't be the same if Jesus was talking to God and not talking to himself. And if God made/sent Jesus then they are individuals.
If they are individuals then God made a predetermined plan that Jesus was born to die on the cross no matter what Jesus or the people wanted. If Jesus had powers to walk away or even free will, God hit the override button and nixed them.
Suicide turns into a predetermined yet short term death sentence.

It couldn't really be a sacrifice because God lost nothing. Jesus lost nothing.

To me it sounds like an ancient story that on the surface sounds like compelling love but actually turns out to be a win/win for a God that couldn't come up with a better plan.

The fix was on from the beginning.

Hey kid, since before you were born I had this plan. Im gonna raise you very low key like and then hire you as fry cook. You will be set up and falsely accused of stealing and fired by the manager to be made an example of for your fellow employees, but since daddy owns the company I will promote you to CEO in a couple days.
You will have my office with three names on the door even though the face of the company will now be you. But if anyone calls you will have to answer in a different voice and let them think they may be talking to me one time and you the other and even a third guy (H. S. we'll call him) who has access to the company benefits but is out on the road a lot moving personnel. Basically whoever calls, let them think there are three of us here who all are in charge of operations. If they ask to speak to the manager either take it yourself or just put them on hold for a second while you "transfer" them and pop back on the line in a different voice. They think that the "company" is a one man operation. Kind of like One Guy's Burgers but with Larry, Darryl and Darryl running the show. It seems confusing but it really is not if you don't think about it at all. That's what we count on here at One Guy's Burgers.

I'm thinking your writings probably would have never made it through the Council of Nicea

 

[bullethead]

I'm thinking your writings probably would have never made it through the Council of Nicea

Destined to be here Walt...

 

[oldfella1962]

I just read about the Council of Nicea yesterday. Turns out there were different sects of Christianity who were actually physically warring with each other so Nicea kind of put a big bow on Christianity and made it a finished, authorized product. The emperor (Constantine?) couldn't abide by all the chaos so he had to do something. Entire gospels were dropped completely or added - many recently written (thus centuries after Jesus' lifetime!) not just found behind a filing cabinet. Side-note I can see how oral stories & myths from the old testament can contradict each other. Thousands of years & many hundreds (or thousands) of miles of distance apart means stories passed along will never be accurate or in synch. That's just a lot of data to examine for plot holes or continuity or whatever, with evidence long gone. But when the main new testament gospels from disciples (Matthew, John, etc) who were part of the same small group WHEN JESUS WAS IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF HIS MINISTRY not all that long ago BTW contradict each other or completely ignore some events or get major details wrong it sounds....I hate to say it but....made up. Thus inaccuracy in the OT is expected. In the NT society & technology was a little more sophisticated, so the bar for accuracy should be set quite a bit higher. Just my 2 cents