God's Salvation plan?

[Artfuldodger]

You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Do you believe this was limited to only some of the sin?
1 John 2;2 says the sins of the whole world.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Welder, have you ever looked at the beliefs of the Primitive Baptist Universalists? They were called "No He11ers" by the locals because they didn't believe in eternal punishment in He11.

Specific tenets of PBU theology include:[4]

• Universal reconciliation: Christ's atonement was for all humanity, and at Resurrection all humanity will be reunited with Christ for an eternity in Heaven.
• He11 is a factor of the temporal world, where temporal sins will be punished by an increased separation from God.
• Satan is an entity solely of the temporal world, existing only as "natural man" warring against "spiritual man."
• Sin, punishment, and death are factors only of the temporal world, thus ceasing to exist after Resurrection, and sin is punished in the temporal world by a separation from God.
• The joy of righteousness is its own reward, so retribution and reward are needed only for the here and now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist_Universalist

This book explains some of their points of salvation and election,

They believe the Elect is just for the here and now, the Church;

https://books.google.com/books?id=7Mr-zilSKdgC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=Charles+F.+Nickels’+“Salvation+of+All+Mankind;+and+Treatise+on+Predestination,+the+Resurrection+of+the+Dead,+and+a+Bequest,”&source=bl&ots=xQOXqqw_vj&sig=v2qc1ngjWZMqDUiSX4pMxmUx-fw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP8My66M3fAhWJmuAKHfSFBFcQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Charles F. Nickels’ “Salvation of All Mankind; and Treatise on Predestination, the Resurrection of the Dead, and a Bequest,”&f=false

 

[Artfuldodger]

I would say that regardless of God's salvation plan, it would be wrong for us to think God needs our help.

 

[Madman]

You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Do you believe this was limited to only some of the sin?
1 John 2;2 says the sins of the whole world.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 - John is referring to Isaiah's "Servant of God" who die for the transgressions of his people. Jesus came to John so that the declaration can be made that would stop anyone from thinking that Jesus needed to be baptized to wash away sins.

Forgiveness is available for everyone, but we see not everyone wants forgiveness.

 

[welderguy]

John 1:29 - John is referring to Isaiah's "Servant of God" who die for the transgressions of his people. Jesus came to John so that the declaration can be made that would stop anyone from thinking that Jesus needed to be baptized to wash away sins.

Forgiveness is available for everyone, but we see not everyone wants forgiveness.

He that is forgiven much, loveth much. He that is forgiven little, loveth little. Not every man can receive the things of the kingdom.

Jesus accomplished everything He came to do, and He needed not man to do it.

 

[hobbs27]

I do not believe 1 John 2:2 has anything at all to do with the physical geographical "world". The geographical world has no sin that needs propitiation.

I dont believe the examples I listed had anything to do with the geographical world either. It was speaking of the people .

 

[welderguy]

I dont believe the examples I listed had anything to do with the geographical world either. It was speaking of the people .

Good. That means we're on the same page.
But let me ask this. When Paul speaks of God in Christ reconciling all things unto Himself, by the "word(logos) of reconciliation". Do you think God needed man for that, or do you think He accomplished that on His own?
And do you think "all" really means "all"? Or are there things that have not been reconciled?

 

[Israel]

I can't imagine that tomorrow my Dad told me that he had children all over the world and he wanted me to share everything with them.

The inheritance, the love, the unity, the oneness.

I'm not sure I could do it.

You'd like have to be convinced of the limitlessness of the inheritance and yet...even something more. So in love with the pleasing of someone that what might seem your own relative position couldn't matter less to you? And/or knowing the Father so well in a unity beyond any and all withholding that none can be found...in recognition that "what is his"...is absolutely yours, no less.

But...where is this seen? Can it...be? Is there...such a son...in the earth?
Can what "might be" to a man...be made..."this is so"?

Perhaps (?????) if the man is made able to bear entrance into the all of "I cannot", but how could that be done?

Wouldn't he need a guide who entered into all his likewise "I cannot"...but is made able to come out of it...somehow...now...being shown as fit guide? Yeah...who could "do this"? Who would? Enter into all of "I cannot"?

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Who could know the gravity of day apart from the likewise knowing of night in full consciousness? What can live in their own death?

Did this man testify of it?

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

A man once wrote something like "If Paul got it wrong, we are all in trouble"

What if...Paul...not getting it wrong helps us see what trouble we can escape from? Like...all of it?

 

[hobbs27]

Good. That means we're on the same page.
But let me ask this. When Paul speaks of God in Christ reconciling all things unto Himself, by the "word(logos) of reconciliation". Do you think God needed man for that, or do you think He accomplished that on His own?
And do you think "all" really means "all"? Or are there things that have not been reconciled?

If I remember correctly you believe that salvation was available in the old covenant. That would make this verse in colossians harder to understand IMO.

The way I see it is, since Adam brought sin in the world man died..(was separated from the presence of God). That death reigned throughout the old covenant, and that covenant could not redeem mankind, it could not put man and God together in relationship. The world was in disorder, but a plan of redemption had been put in place. By Christ becoming a sacrifice on the cross, this made a way to forgive sin, that man may dwell with God again. Order had been brought to the world for all men, but not to all men. We see in Revelation 22 that even though Christ had completed all things and put all enemies under his feet..the righteous would abide in the kingdom, while the wicked were outside the gates..I strongly believe this is where we are today. Christian's with God dwelling inside us have through our lord a refuge ( spiritual kingdom) from the wicked outside...but not only that, the wicked are being invited, " come,take of the water of life which is freely given".
The new covenant system opens salvation for all men, but not all men are taking it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You'd like have to be convinced of the limitlessness of the inheritance and yet...even something more. So in love with the pleasing of someone that what might seem your own relative position couldn't matter less to you? And/or knowing the Father so well in a unity beyond any and all withholding that none can be found...in recognition that "what is his"...is absolutely yours, no less.

But...where is this seen? Can it...be? Is there...such a son...in the earth?
Can what "might be" to a man...be made..."this is so"?

Perhaps (?????) if the man is made able to bear entrance into the all of "I cannot", but how could that be done?

Wouldn't he need a guide who entered into all his likewise "I cannot"...but is made able to come out of it...somehow...now...being shown as fit guide? Yeah...who could "do this"? Who would? Enter into all of "I cannot"?

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Who could know the gravity of day apart from the likewise knowing of night in full consciousness? What can live in their own death?

Did this man testify of it?

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

A man once wrote something like "If Paul got it wrong, we are all in trouble"

What if...Paul...not getting it wrong helps us see what trouble we can escape from? Like...all of it?

Maybe Paul was showing us that some of would get it wrong. That we would ask the Potter, are you sure?

Romans 11:33-33
For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Who is this "all?" Is this just a odd way of saying the Jews and the Gentiles?

How untraceable his ways, indeed!

 

[hawglips]

What makes you believe every knee will bow willingly?

I imagine that when His majesty is apparent, the divine spark in even those who have fought against Him will lead them to willingly go to their knees....

 

[welderguy]

If I remember correctly you believe that salvation was available in the old covenant. That would make this verse in colossians harder to understand IMO.

The way I see it is, since Adam brought sin in the world man died..(was separated from the presence of God). That death reigned throughout the old covenant, and that covenant could not redeem mankind, it could not put man and God together in relationship. The world was in disorder, but a plan of redemption had been put in place. By Christ becoming a sacrifice on the cross, this made a way to forgive sin, that man may dwell with God again. Order had been brought to the world for all men, but not to all men. We see in Revelation 22 that even though Christ had completed all things and put all enemies under his feet..the righteous would abide in the kingdom, while the wicked were outside the gates..I strongly believe this is where we are today. Christian's with God dwelling inside us have through our lord a refuge ( spiritual kingdom) from the wicked outside...but not only that, the wicked are being invited, " come,take of the water of life which is freely given".
The new covenant system opens salvation for all men, but not all men are taking it.

By this, I am hearing you say that an individual's eternal salvation is dependent upon something he does. I disagree...(see 2 Tim. 1:9)...unless you are meaning something else by "salvation".

 

[Artfuldodger]

I imagine that when His majesty is apparent, the divine spark in even those who have fought against Him will lead them to willingly go to their knees....

Will they then receive salvation?

 

[hobbs27]

By this, I am hearing you say that an individual's eternal salvation is dependent upon something he does. I disagree...(see 2 Tim. 1:9)...unless you are meaning something else by "salvation".

It is through the hearing and belief in the Gospel. Theres no works for salvation unless you consider faith as a work. All heard the Gospel, but many chose to reject. The same goes today. Many do good works, but without faith it is worthless.

 

[welderguy]

It is through the hearing and belief in the Gospel. Theres no works for salvation unless you consider faith as a work. All heard the Gospel, but many chose to reject. The same goes today. Many do good works, but without faith it is worthless.

What I'm saying is eternal salvation is not based on a decision that man makes, or anything else he tries to do, for that matter. It is based solely on God's sovereign purpose. Man cannot add a single thing or take away a single thing from it.
When you bring up the verses regarding "those who thirst, let them drink freely", this is referring to the entering into the kingdom. Not obtaining eternal salvation. Big difference.

 

[hobbs27]

What I'm saying is eternal salvation is not based on a decision that man makes, or anything else he tries to do, for that matter. It is based solely on God's sovereign purpose. Man cannot add a single thing or take away a single thing from it.
When you bring up the verses regarding "those who thirst, let them drink freely", this is referring to the entering into the kingdom. Not obtaining eternal salvation. Big difference.

I dont think there is a difference. By coming into the kingdom you have been made a child of God.

 

[welderguy]

I dont think there is a difference. By coming into the kingdom you have been made a child of God.

To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.

 

[j_seph]

To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.

Are you saying you can go to Heaven but not have eternal life?

 

[welderguy]

Do

Are you saying you can go to Heaven but not have eternal life?

J_seph, having(possessing) Eternal Life in this temporal life is Jesus Christ dwelling within you.Being in the kingdom. Please read 1 John 5. It explains how Jesus IS eternal life.

 

[Artfuldodger]

To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.

Do you see the Elect as being the individuals elected now or on the earth?(temporal) So maybe the Kingdom is the Church(temporal), and man is elected to that aspect which also includes salvation.

Then later through Christ's redemption, all are saved.

 

[hobbs27]

To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.

Actually..To enter the kingdom, Nicodemus a Jew, had to be born again.