A Very Dangerous Book

[Israel]

Man in Christ is in every way advantaged, yet working out that relationship in which he has no advantage over any other man.

It is not unusual to marvel at how large God is, but just as necessary to see how small He is willing to appear.


Give that which is inside the cup to the poor.

 

[gemcgrew]

Man in Christ is in every way advantaged, yet working out that relationship in which he has no advantage over any other man.

Because that relationship is not dependent... in any way... upon the man.

 

[welderguy]

So what would be the difference for a man then, in striving to enter the strait gate, as opposed to him just running headlong through the wide gate?

 

[gemcgrew]

So what would be the difference for a man then, in striving to enter the strait gate, as opposed to him just running headlong through the wide gate?

God

 

[welderguy]

God

Man is culpable for his sins, because he has been set at liberty from those sins, if he has been born again.

James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[gemcgrew]

Man is culpable for his sins, because he has been set at liberty from those sins, if he has been born again.

James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Can you clarify the point you are trying to make?

 

[welderguy]

Can you clarify the point you are trying to make?

Man does all the sinning. God does all the saving.

Hosea 13
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

 

[gemcgrew]

Man does all the sinning. God does all the saving.

Hosea 13
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Yes. And all the sinning that man does is determined by God. God has a good purpose in all the sinning that man does.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20

 

[welderguy]

Yes. And all the sinning that man does is determined by God. God has a good purpose in all the sinning that man does.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20

I don't believe, as you do, that God determines that we commit certain sins to bring to pass certain things. He can do that without the sin, just as easily. He tells us that for every temptation, He has given us a way of escape. Joseph's brothers didn't have to do what they did. God could have taken care of Israel regardless. His outcome is what is determined in every case.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't believe, as you do, that God determines that we commit certain sins to bring to pass certain things. He can do that without the sin, just as easily. He tells us that for every temptation, He has given us a way of escape. Joseph's brothers didn't have to do what they did. God could have taken care of Israel regardless. His outcome is what is determined in every case.

Concerning Joseph's brothers, you see God basing his actions on those of man. To include Pharoah, God based his plan on Pharoah's actions. concerning Israel, God based his redemption plan on the actions of Israel.

 

[welderguy]

Concerning Joseph's brothers, you see God basing his actions on those of man. To include Pharoah, God based his plan on Pharoah's actions. concerning Israel, God based his redemption plan on the actions of Israel.

Nope. You missed it. I'm stating that God's outcomes are dependant upon nothing outside of Himself.

Isaiah 46
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

 

[gemcgrew]

I don't believe, as you do, that God determines that we commit certain sins to bring to pass certain things. He can do that without the sin, just as easily.

I believe that God is God.

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand." Isaiah 14:24

He tells us that for every temptation, He has given us a way of escape.

Not relevant.

Joseph's brothers didn't have to do what they did.

They had to do what they did because God really meant it.

His outcome is what is determined in every case.

He determines everything in every case.

Samson sinned in taking a Philistine(Gentile, unclean) woman to wife.

"And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel." Judges 14:1-4

 

[gemcgrew]

Concerning Joseph's brothers, you see God basing his actions on those of man. To include Pharoah, God based his plan on Pharoah's actions. concerning Israel, God based his redemption plan on the actions of Israel.

God is not subject to the actions of man.

 

[welderguy]

I believe that God is God.

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand." Isaiah 14:24

Not relevant.

They had to do what they did because God really meant it.

He determines everything in every case.

Samson sinned in taking a Philistine(Gentile, unclean) woman to wife.

"And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel." Judges 14:1-4

God was bringing salvation to Israel IN SPITE of Sampson's sinful lust. God never condoned this sin, yet, His purpose still came to pass.
James explains pretty clearly that when we sin, it's because of the lust that is in our heart.
Here's a glimpse of what I'm saying:

Gal.5
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

In other words, they were led by the flesh, not by the Spirit. (Rom. 7 also supports this)

According to your position, God determines everything, even our sin. But here, their disobedience was not from "him that calleth". How's that work?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Nope. You missed it. I'm stating that God's outcomes are dependant upon nothing outside of Himself.

Isaiah 46
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

The in agreement with Gem, Joseph's brothers did have to do what they did. God is not subject to the actions of man.

 

[gemcgrew]

God was bringing salvation to Israel IN SPITE of Sampson's sinful lust.

"But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines". "Samson's sinful lust" was part of the "it".

God never condoned this sin, yet, His purpose still came to pass.

Determining is not the same as condoning. There are decrees and there are precepts.

James explains pretty clearly that when we sin, it's because of the lust that is in our heart.

The lust that is in our heart is not God. Are you Pantheist?

Here's a glimpse of what I'm saying:

Gal.5
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

In other words, they were led by the flesh, not by the Spirit. (Rom. 7 also supports this)

False teachers persuaded them. False teachers are not God. Are you Pantheist?

According to your position, God determines everything, even our sin. But here, their disobedience was not from "him that calleth". How's that work?

By rejecting your Pantheism.

 

[welderguy]

"But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines". "Samson's sinful lust" was part of the "it".
Determining is not the same as condoning. There are decrees and there are precepts.
The lust that is in our heart is not God. Are you Pantheist?

False teachers persuaded them. False teachers are not God. Are you Pantheist?


By rejecting your Pantheism.

When we are led by our flesh, in effect, we do have one too many gods. I am guilty of being led by the flesh all too often. And if you're honest, I believe you probably are too.
Does this make us pantheists? I guess technically yes. But that is really not what we are discussing here.