Madman
Senior Member
I would argue that if there is ANYTHING now then SOMETHING must be eternal. If there ever was a time when "no thing" existed then there could be "no thing" now. For me the question is; what is the eternal thing?
Welcome Guest!
What is "Nothing"
- Thread starter ambush80
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ambush80
Senior Member
I made the same argument but alas, it's all speculation.
Madman
Senior Member
Time for beer and chicken wings or whatever you philosophy over
ambush80
Senior Member
Before or after we fish?
ambush80
Senior Member
I imagined a thought experiment. If a supreme being were to make itself disappear from existence it would be "nothing" existing "nowhere". Then by some non-understood and incomprehensible way, it could make itself reappear from nothing. By this I mean that it was nothing, nowhere and it spontaneously became something, somewhere.
This is really just a version of "Can God make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?" The answer should be "Yes", though inexplicable.
Funny stuff.
This is really just a version of "Can God make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?" The answer should be "Yes", though inexplicable.
Funny stuff.
ambush80
Senior Member
Seeing that all this speculation is well outside our pay grade, the question still remains "Is there anything besides personal preference for believing one way or the other?".
I'd like to move on and examine what the practical benefits psychologically or otherwise are for believing one way or the other. I observe that differences in personal revelation are divisive in a way that scientific disagreement is not. Though people kill each other over ideology, it's not because of, as the late Chris Hitchens put it "An explosion of rational thought". When confronted by a theist who claimed that many atrocities of the 20th century were caused by secular thinking, Hitchens replied that they were a result of religious thinking wherein the State became the object of religious dogmatism.
I'd like to move on and examine what the practical benefits psychologically or otherwise are for believing one way or the other. I observe that differences in personal revelation are divisive in a way that scientific disagreement is not. Though people kill each other over ideology, it's not because of, as the late Chris Hitchens put it "An explosion of rational thought". When confronted by a theist who claimed that many atrocities of the 20th century were caused by secular thinking, Hitchens replied that they were a result of religious thinking wherein the State became the object of religious dogmatism.
Madman
Senior Member
Anywhere men amass power it becomes corrupted. That is the constant struggle, hence the US Constitution, and how we have become so lazy in the US we have given power over to them.
But I am in for the discussion.
redwards
Senior Member
Kurt,
I agree with you…...up to a point…..”We”.....meaning an individual who has not accepted Jesus Christ as her/his personal Savior CANNOT know whether anything is eternal or not.
However, an individual who has accepted Jesus has the Holy Spirit living within her/him, and that/those individual(s) CAN CERTAINLY know that something is ETERNAL!
HOW?...you ask….I'm glad you asked!
Man (humankind) has four aspects (parts, if you will) about himself, and you can search any philosophy or psychology book or website you want and you will likely find the four aspects discussed.
They are, namely:
#1 Mental
#2 Physical
#3 Emotional
#4 Spiritual
The first three make up man's Soul.
Mental - Man's mind -- Man thinks
Emotional - Man's emotions -- Man feels
Physical - Man's will -- Man acts
The fourth part, the core of man, is his Spirit.
When man is born on planet earth, he is born dead Spiritually-
That is; Dead = Separated from God,
which can be represented by a -------------Line---------------
God (Spiritual), above the line.
Man (Physical), below the line.
Anything above the line can be thought of as ETERNAL.
Anything below the line can be thought of as TEMPORAL, or NOT ETERNAL.
So, since man's Spirit is "Dead" or "Separated from God" man functions with only Three parts-
#1 - Mental - Man's mind – what man thinks
---- a computer (as it were), to be programmed
#2 - Emotional - What man feels - Emotions follow man's thoughts,
Emotions - have no Intellect
- no discernment for fact or fantasy
- can't discern today or tomorrow
- can't discern past, present, or future
- feels something from what the mind thinks
- are strictly responders
#3 - Physical - Man's will
- Man acts
- based on what he thinks and what/how he feels
So man, without God to communicate with his spirit (the fourth part) CAN DO NOTHING BUT live "Below the Line"
which results in "Subjective Living"
Thank you! You post is a very good example of "Subjective Living"
Which is:
Mental - Your eyes saw (or have seen) something and your mind interpreted it
Emotional - Your emotions kicked in
Physical - Man's will - Prompting you to create the above post
Result - Man's Actions: Dictated by what you think and what/how you feel.
So then, of what benefit is:
-LIVING ABOVE THE LINE-
Confession to God that I (man) am totally lost and dead in my (man) own sins, and accepting Jesus Christ as my (man) Personal Savior results in a regenerated soul and my (man) 'dead' spirit is GIVEN LIFE through the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit who is in perfect communication with the will of God.
Because the regenerated man now has a LIVING SPIRIT (the 4th part of man), the first three parts of man can function in a completely different way. That is:
#1 Mental - Man's mind - man thinks on Truth (John 14:6),
a computer (as it were) programmed by God’s WORD – (1 Cor. 2:9-16)
-We are righteous – (II Cor. 5:21)
-We are perfect – (Heb 2:6-10)
-We are seated in Heaven - (Eph 2:6)
-We died to sin – (Rom 6:2)
-We are freed from sin – (Rom 6:7)
-We have Holy Spirit living within us (Rom 8:11)
-Our sins God will remember no more (Heb 10:15-17)
#2 Emotional – Man responds to Truth with God’s emotions
-- God’s Emotions –
-Peace (Phil 4:7)
-Joy (John 15:11)
-Love (I John 4:16)
-Fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-24)
#3 Physical - Man's will
-Man thinks on God’s Truth (John 8:32)
-Man‘s emotions respond with God’s emotions
-Man acts by Faith on God’s Truth (John 8:31) (Matt 7:24-27)
Which results in “Objective Living”
Living Above the Line
Eternal
" Objective Living"
------------------------------- The Line --------------------------------
" Subjective Living"
Temporal
Living Below the Line
Given that a professing Christian has accepted Jesus Christ and that the NEW SPIRIT that lives within that individual is able to communicate with God, it is entirely possible to know of eternity!
Kurt….It hinges 100% on RELATIONSHIP!!...It is not about “religion”...
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
If that is true of one god and it's believers then it is true of the other gods and their believers, right?
redwards
Senior Member
Nope....there is only one true God....there are plenty of untrue gods.....
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
But those other believers have the same experiences as the ones you say are proof. You may be experiencing their gods and just can't figure it out.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Does the bible say that there are no other gods?
ambush80
Senior Member
You don't know if eternal life is real. You believe what a book that said "bats are birds" told you. I can't argue against your personal revelation, it's an impossible task. In the same regard, you can't argue against someone else's personal revelation that leads them to believe that Allah is God, but I imagine that you feel confident in telling them that theirs is wrong. That would make you a hypocrite.
ambush80
Senior Member
I was talking with my church planter neighbor the other night about our conversation. In doing so I came to the conclusion that the idea of a "Great Arbiter of right and wrong" is useful; not absolutely necessary, but useful. As we see now, the Great Arbiter notion is quite divisive in a profound way, because when people disagree on the wishes of the Arbiter they can be driven to do terrible things to each other. As the idea of the Arbiter gets tempered by secularism, the minor details become less important. In another thread I suggested that for some kinds of people the notion of an arbiter is just the best way for them to structure their lives to work well in society. Even if they're only being good because they're afraid of the "Boogey Man", the net result is that they behave. I would prefer taht they behave because they have realized that it's best for themselves and everyone else for them to do so, but behaving because they want to please God or are afraid of his wrath accomplishes the same thing, even if it's not ideal.
I also came to the conclusion that revelation should only be used to inform metaphysical questions and not ever to inform questions about things in the real world. And revelations should be regarded as theories and not applied untill they have been proven through the scientific method to be useful.
You don’t know any more than anybody else.
WaltL1
Senior Member
Christianity/organized religion literally depends on people willing to be hypocrites as its life blood. Without it, organized religion unravels.
ambush80
Senior Member
That's the biggest problem with faith based beliefs, they demand that the believer be absolutely certain that they are right. Since many of the beliefs are contrary to what we know to be true, believers have to double down with their surety in order to believe them.
ambush80
Senior Member
Going back to the original OP, if a non-believer reads a scientific paper talking about how something spontaneously came from nothing or that something was eternally there, it doesn't affect them to not take it to heart. To the believer, the fact that their book tells them how something came from nothing and that some(thing/one) is eternal informs everything they do. They have to believe that because if they don't, the rest of the claims in the book may topple like dominoes. That domino effect seems to be what caused many previous believers to now disbelieve.
Madman
Senior Member
I need to spend some time with this.
redwards
Senior Member
bullethead; Kurt; ky55; Walt
Thank you! Your posts are very good examples of "Subjective Living"
Which is:
Mental - Your eyes saw (or have seen) something and your mind interpreted it
Emotional - Your emotions kicked in
Physical - Man's will - Prompting you to create the posts
Result - Man's Actions: Dictated by what you think and what/how you feel.
Which supports this statement:
It is impossible to reason with (fill in the blanks), one can only expose them to Truth.
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