Are Muslims who do not...

[ted_BSR]

Are Muslims who do not practice Sharia Law really Muslims?

 

[earl]

Are Protestants who disagree with Catholics really Christians ? Are Catholics who disagree with Protestants really Christians ? Are Messianic Jews who disagree with Catholics and Protestants really Christians?
Things that make you go hmmmmm.

 

[SneekEE]

the word muslim means "one who submits to Allah". If Allah says to adher to Sharia and they dont, then they are not submitting to allah, and could not be defined as a muslim I would say. So does Allah require a muslim to adher to sharia law ?

 

[Thor827]

According to what I have read, it is permissible to live outside of Sharia in order to further the cause of islam.

 

[Six million dollar ham]

Yes.

 

[pnome]

Does it really matter?

If they call themselves Muslim, they are Muslims. At least as far as I care. Same thing with Christians. If you self identify as a Christian, I'm going to call you a Christian. You may be "unorthodox" in your beliefs, but as long as you call yourself one, you're one in my book.

 

[Lowjack]

Are Protestants who disagree with Catholics really Christians ? Are Catholics who disagree with Protestants really Christians ? Are Messianic Jews who disagree with Catholics and Protestants really Christians?
Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Another non sensible Gibberish.
It is not about disagreeing within the same faith as there are several Muslim faiths, but they all subscribe to Sharia.
All Christians subscribe to the New Testament even if they make a mockery and misunderstand what they are reading.

 

[earl]

Now that's just silly LJ. There is only one God and only one Allah.
There are quite a few ''versions'' of the New Testament. Google Bible Gateway . I think there are more than 50. And before you make a silly reply like ''they are all the same'', take a minute and remember all the KJV wars that have been fought in these very pages.

Take it a step further and tell us that all Jews believe the same . You ,of all people , know better.
You may want to look up the big words like gibberish before using them.

 

[ted_BSR]

I watched a "Town Hall" on ABC’s “This Week” hosted by Christine Amenpour where this guy, Anjem Choudary, who is a former British solicitors and Muslim cleric and spokesman for the group Islam4UK, stated that eventually Sharia would be global law, even here in the US. He envisions the flag of Isalm flying over the white house. He also said something to the effect that if you are a Muslim, but don't practice Sharia Law, you are just like a vegetarian that eats fish.

Christine Amenpour's jaw was on the floor.

 

[SneekEE]

I watched a "Town Hall" on ABC’s “This Week” hosted by Christine Amenpour where this guy, Anjem Choudary, who is a former British solicitors and Muslim cleric and spokesman for the group Islam4UK, stated that eventually Sharia would be global law, even here in the US. He envisions the flag of Isalm flying over the white house. He also said something to the effect that if you are a Muslim, but don't practice Sharia Law, you are just like a vegetarian that eats fish.

Christine Amenpour's jaw was on the floor.

I saw that as well, notice they didnt return to him for comments, lol, he was not afraid to stand up for his faith and tell the truth.He even said 9-11 was a reaction to the US attacking them. And that Islam will dominate the world.

Search youtube for ....
Anjem Choudary - "The Flag of Islam Will One Day Fly Over the White House - 4th Oct 2010

 

[ted_BSR]

Now that's just silly LJ. There is only one God and only one Allah.
There are quite a few ''versions'' of the New Testament. Google Bible Gateway . I think there are more than 50. And before you make a silly reply like ''they are all the same'', take a minute and remember all the KJV wars that have been fought in these very pages.

Take it a step further and tell us that all Jews believe the same . You ,of all people , know better.
You may want to look up the big words like gibberish before using them.

You gotta layoff the Google Earl.

 

[ted_BSR]

According to what I have read, it is permissible to live outside of Sharia in order to further the cause of islam.

I think it is more like, it is permissable to decieve your enemies in order to conquer them, but I am no scholar. Well, I kind of am, but not on the Koran.

 

[ted_BSR]

We can compare you to a real chicken and see that you are indeed not an actual chicken. But with religion, you have nothing real to compare to.

Good point PNOME, I really couldn't resist. But you can compare a persons actions to the doctrine of the religion they claim to follow. Chickens who quack?

 

[earl]

7th Day Adventist are said to quack like ducks but they can and do still claim to be Christian.
Weird how that works.

 

[SneekEE]

7th Day Adventist are said to quack like ducks but they can and do still claim to be Christian.
Weird how that works.

LOL!! That is true Earl... but I like the claim Jesus makes concerning what a christian is.

 

[ted_BSR]

lol!! That is true earl... But i like the claim jesus makes concerning what a christian is.

x2!

 

[redneck_billcollector]

The difference in arguing about the different Islamic varieties and the various christian denominations is like comparing apples and oranges. The shia' and the sunni do not differ in the interpretation of the qu'ran, they differ in who should have succeeded Mohammad as ruler/caliph of the muslim peoples. The sunni line of caliphes ended up being the ones that won in the end. The shia' thought mohammad's nephew and husband of his daughter Fatima was the rightful sucsessor whereas the sunni did not.

This split lead to two different schools of sharia law, the sharia that is based on the qu'ran is accepted by both, the difference occurs when the law based on the sunnah comes into play. The sunnah is a compilation of accounts of mohammad's life as witnessed by those around him, in other words, he was allah's choosen so therefore what he did and said was how allah wanted people to live. The haditha (individual stories that make up the sunnah) collected by Aisha (mohammads child bride and favorite wife) were given great importance by the sunni, because if my memory serves me correctly, her father was the first caliph after Mohammad and she did not want Ali to be caliph. The shia' place importance on the haditha compiled by both ali and Fatima and ignore the haditha compiled by Aisha (due to political considerations) so that is where the sharia differs.

As for whether a muslim can live outside of sharia law.....there are justified occassions, but not many. Muhammad made it plain that no muslim should willingly leave the Dar al-Islam (islamic lands) and live in the nonmuslim Dar al-Harb (literally translated into House of War). A muslim believes that there are no just laws of man, nor any just governments of man, the goal is for all the umma (muslim people) to live in the caliphate (a government of allah with no national boundries) under sharia law. If a muslim leaves Dar al-Islam he has a duty to convert as many folks as he can and should not intentionally live outside sharia law if he can help it at all (only exceptions are for war, trade or being a captive, later the scholars allowed it for educational purposes during the 19th century).

One major difference is that islam is as much a political movement as it is a religious one and sees no distinction between religion and state (there is no organized church in islam hence religion and state as opposed to church and state). The shia'/sunni split was not originally religious in nature, but political only and dealt with political sucsession alone, because it was so close to the death of muhammad, religious significance developed over which were the proper sunnah to follow. In islam the will of Allah prevails in all aspects of life and his law over rules the law of man. We all have heard of the draconian punishment that sharia law has for many offenses, but the most telling is the crime of apostacy, it is a capital offense to leave islam and it is EVERY MUSLIM'S duty to dispense with justice for an apostate. That by far is the most telling about whether sharia law should prevail over a muslim in all cases.

 

[ted_BSR]

The difference in arguing about the different Islamic varieties and the various christian denominations is like comparing apples and oranges. The shia' and the sunni do not differ in the interpretation of the qu'ran, they differ in who should have succeeded Mohammad as ruler/caliph of the muslim peoples. The sunni line of caliphes ended up being the ones that won in the end. The shia' thought mohammad's nephew and wife of his daughter Fatima was the rightful sucsessor whereas the sunni did not.

This split lead to two different schools of sharia law, the sharia that is based on the qu'ran is accepted by both, the difference occurs when the law based on the sunnah comes into play. The sunnah is a compilation of accounts of mohammad's life as witnessed by those around him, in other words, he was allah's choosen so therefore what he did and said was how allah wanted people to live. The haditha (individual stories that make up the sunnah) collected by Aisha (mohammads child bride and favorite wife) were given great importance by the sunni, because if my memory serves me correctly, her father was the first caliph after Mohammad and she did not want Ali to be caliph. The shia' place importance on the haditha compiled by both ali and Fatima and ignore the haditha compiled by Aisha (due to political considerations) so that is where the sharia differs.

As for whether a muslim can live outside of sharia law.....there are justified occassions, but not many. Muhammad made it plain that no muslim should willingly leave the Dar al-Islam (islamic lands) and live in the nonmuslim Dar al-Harb (literally translated into House of War). A muslim believes that there are no just laws of man, nor any just governments of man, the goal is for all the umma (muslim people) to live in the caliphate (a government of allah with no national boundries) under sharia law. If a muslim leaves Dar al-Islam he has a duty to convert as many folks as he can and should not intentionally live outside sharia law if he can help it at all (only exceptions are for war, trade or being a captive, later the scholars allowed it for educational purposes during the 19th century).

One major difference is that islam is as much a political movement as it is a religious one and sees no distinction between religion and state (there is no organized church in islam hence religion and state as opposed to church and state). The shia'/sunni split was not originally religious in nature, but political only and dealt with political sucsession alone, because it was so close to the death of muhammad, religious significance developed over which were the proper sunnah to follow. In islam the will of Allah prevails in all aspects of life and his law over rules the law of man. We all have heard of the draconian punishment that sharia law has for many offenses, but the most telling is the crime of apostacy, it is a capital offense to leave islam and it is EVERY MUSLIM'S duty to dispense with justice for an apostate. That by far is the most telling about whether sharia law should prevail over a muslim in all cases.

Thanks for an informative post. I have to diasgree with your comment about apples and oranges though, there are as many if not more weird diversions of the Christian faith as there are of Islam. Catholics have a different bible than Protestants, and on the far end there are snake handlers and stricnine drinkers. Only God knows your heart, and only He can pass judgement on you (not my place). I guess the scariest thing you have brought to light is that there is no distinction between government and religion for Islam. It is a total way of life. This removes my opportunity to worship freely as I see fit, and scares the heck out of me.

Also, the provision to live outside of Sharia Law frightens me because I believe they are all at war (however subtle) to achieve the goal that the whole of the earth is under Sharia Law. Europe is falling fast.

Some Christians believe that The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until every corner of the world has heard the gospel of salvation. That is very different from beilieve or be eradicated.

Thanks again for an informative post.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

Thanks for an informative post. I have to diasgree with your comment about apples and oranges though, there are as many if not more weird diversions of the Christian faith as there are of Islam. Catholics have a different bible than Protestants, and on the far end there are snake handlers and stricnine drinkers. Only God knows your heart, and only He can pass judgement on you (not my place). I guess the scariest thing you have brought to light is that there is no distinction between government and religion for Islam. It is a total way of life. This removes my opportunity to worship freely as I see fit, and scares the heck out of me.

Also, the provision to live outside of Sharia Law frightens me because I believe they are all at war (however subtle) to achieve the goal that the whole of the earth is under Sharia Law. Europe is falling fast.

Some Christians believe that The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until every corner of the world has heard the gospel of salvation. That is very different from beilieve or be eradicated.

Thanks again for an informative post.

The reason I was saying apples and oranges is because there is only one qu'ran and only one interpretation of it amongst all muslims, regardless of their paticular sect. They disagree on political issues and which sunnah and haditha(non-qu'ranic aspects of islam based on how muhammad lived or what he said) are the appropriate ones to follow. Christians disagree over interpretations of the bible and as you said there are many versions of it (all muslims believe there is only one interpretation of the qu'ran). All muslim prayers are in arabic even though most muslims have to take another's word as to what they are saying in their prayers. There are no formal preachers as westerners know them in islam, they have clerics that are supposedly learned, but the educational requirements are only that they memorize the qu'ran in arabic. The judicial scholars are clerics too, because the law is based in the religion, just as the politics is. There are serious legal debates amongst islamic legal scholars on such matters as to the proper way to execute a homosexual, I kid you not, there is one school of thought that says they should be thrown to their death from a tall building, another school of thought is that a wall should be collapsed on them. There was actually a huge legal debate recently in Iran when 5 teenagers were hung for the offense of homosexuality and many scholars were really upset that the court ordered them hung, because it was not a proper punishment.

As for worshiping freely under islam, there are provisions that allow the practice of christian, jewish and zoroasterism faiths under islam. One thing about islam is you can not levy a tax on a muslim, and only non-muslims can be taxed, so they don't require those faiths to convert, but you live under some repressive restrains (no church bells, no public displays of your faith, etc....oh yeah, your testimony is no good against a muslim and you must provide a muslim shelter and food if they need it) Other religions besides the ones named are not allowed (hindus, and taoist are two examples that come to mind) because they are seen as blatantly polytheist and that is a big no-no. Many muslims believe that christians are polytheist due to the trinity, basically that we believe in three deities but because Jesus is a prophet in islam, christians are considered people of the book and therefore are allowed some freedom to worship as christians.

One of the biggest things to hit the muslim world in a long time was the discovery of qu'ranic manuscripts in Sa'na Yemen in the 70's. They are the oldest known manuscripts and are written in an arcahic arabic script that has no vowels. These are causing some concern because there appears to be some minor differences between them and the later qu'rans. Even though it is just minor differences it has many islamic scholars worried. Muslims do not believe the qu'ran is a work of inspired script, they believe it is the literal word of allah, via muhammad through gabriel. They continuously are pointing out that it has NEVER changed, even one iota unlike the christian bible, starting with the council of nicea through the king james version. The Sa'na manuscripts show that might not be the case. Muslims have never acknowleged a history of the qu'ran, unlike christians. Their scholars don't spend time interpreting, it is the word of god so therefore it means what it says and there is no human interferance involved, unlike the political considerations that were at play at nicea and with the protestant movement. Right now the work with the Sa'na manuscripts has been kept pretty much hush, hush....one of the funny ones that I have been able to find though is the discription of paradise in the sa'na version; it does not talk about virgins......I reckon it would a whole lot harder to recruit mujahadeen were that to get out.....

Have you ever wondered about why muslim men wear beards? The reason being is that allah made it so men would grow beards, therefore you are going against his will if you do not grow one, allah is perfect in all things and all creations and he must want men with beards if men grow them. That is why the taliban required men to keep beards and it was a crime to shave one off.

The salafi sects, such as the wahabbi's are very much into a fundimental interpretation of islam and they are where the problems with western thought and islam are at their deepest. The saudi government made a deal with the wahabbist back at the end of W.W.I when the royal family was unifying arabia (the saud' family), they would give them power if they supported their bid for the thrown. The salafi movement (which includes the wahabbi of which Osama bin Ladin is one) gained strength through saudi oil wealth and the government funded, and still does, mosque and religious schools that are salafi in nature. It is popular in Arabia because it is the land of the prophet, where he walked, waged war, and preached.

 

[ted_BSR]

The reason I was saying apples and oranges is because there is only one qu'ran and only one interpretation of it amongst all muslims, regardless of their paticular sect. They disagree on political issues and which sunnah and haditha(non-qu'ranic aspects of islam based on how muhammad lived or what he said) are the appropriate ones to follow. Christians disagree over interpretations of the bible and as you said there are many versions of it (all muslims believe there is only one interpretation of the qu'ran). All muslim prayers are in arabic even though most muslims have to take another's word as to what they are saying in their prayers. There are no formal preachers as westerners know them in islam, they have clerics that are supposedly learned, but the educational requirements are only that they memorize the qu'ran in arabic. The judicial scholars are clerics too, because the law is based in the religion, just as the politics is. There are serious legal debates amongst islamic legal scholars on such matters as to the proper way to execute a homosexual, I kid you not, there is one school of thought that says they should be thrown to their death from a tall building, another school of thought is that a wall should be collapsed on them. There was actually a huge legal debate recently in Iran when 5 teenagers were hung for the offense of homosexuality and many scholars were really upset that the court ordered them hung, because it was not a proper punishment.

As for worshiping freely under islam, there are provisions that allow the practice of christian, jewish and zoroasterism faiths under islam. One thing about islam is you can not levy a tax on a muslim, and only non-muslims can be taxed, so they don't require those faiths to convert, but you live under some repressive restrains (no church bells, no public displays of your faith, etc....oh yeah, your testimony is no good against a muslim and you must provide a muslim shelter and food if they need it) Other religions besides the ones named are not allowed (hindus, and taoist are two examples that come to mind) because they are seen as blatantly polytheist and that is a big no-no. Many muslims believe that christians are polytheist due to the trinity, basically that we believe in three deities but because Jesus is a prophet in islam, christians are considered people of the book and therefore are allowed some freedom to worship as christians.

One of the biggest things to hit the muslim world in a long time was the discovery of qu'ranic manuscripts in Sa'na Yemen in the 70's. They are the oldest known manuscripts and are written in an arcahic arabic script that has no vowels. These are causing some concern because there appears to be some minor differences between them and the later qu'rans. Even though it is just minor differences it has many islamic scholars worried. Muslims do not believe the qu'ran is a work of inspired script, they believe it is the literal word of allah, via muhammad through gabriel. They continuously are pointing out that it has NEVER changed, even one iota unlike the christian bible, starting with the council of nicea through the king james version. The Sa'na manuscripts show that might not be the case. Muslims have never acknowleged a history of the qu'ran, unlike christians. Their scholars don't spend time interpreting, it is the word of god so therefore it means what it says and there is no human interferance involved, unlike the political considerations that were at play at nicea and with the protestant movement. Right now the work with the Sa'na manuscripts has been kept pretty much hush, hush....one of the funny ones that I have been able to find though is the discription of paradise in the sa'na version; it does not talk about virgins......I reckon it would a whole lot harder to recruit mujahadeen were that to get out.....

Have you ever wondered about why muslim men wear beards? The reason being is that allah made it so men would grow beards, therefore you are going against his will if you do not grow one, allah is perfect in all things and all creations and he must want men with beards if men grow them. That is why the taliban required men to keep beards and it was a crime to shave one off.

The salafi sects, such as the wahabbi's are very much into a fundimental interpretation of islam and they are where the problems with western thought and islam are at their deepest. The saudi government made a deal with the wahabbist back at the end of W.W.I when the royal family was unifying arabia (the saud' family), they would give them power if they supported their bid for the thrown. The salafi movement (which includes the wahabbi of which Osama bin Ladin is one) gained strength through saudi oil wealth and the government funded, and still does, mosque and religious schools that are salafi in nature. It is popular in Arabia because it is the land of the prophet, where he walked, waged war, and preached.

That sounds like divine inspiration to me. How have you learned so much about Islam?