Israel
BANNED
That's really funny...cause when I first read informalcheerleader, I read it as "Infomercialcheerleader" and I thought instantly of Ron Popeil...
Welcome Guest!
Faith for atheists?
- Thread starter ambush80
- Start date
redwards
Senior Member
And this is for free as well...
Ain't no such thing as..."was once a Christian"...if the Holy Spirit gave your inner spirit life, then brother, you have life, and life eternal....and,
I ain't getting into it now because my wife and I are packing to go see our great-grandkids...
atlashunter
Senior Member
???
Proof of what exactly? Miraculous healing that didn’t happen? The prayer patients didn’t fare any better and in one instance fared worse. What do you think needs a medical explanation?
atlashunter
Senior Member
That Krucoff fellow who did the study had nice things to say about prayer. Don’t know if he is a believer but you need more than that to dismiss the study.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Exactly, that is why I am here, to get an Apologists take on things. That is what this forum is all about.
But, if he has to question why I do what I do here.....he might not be cut out for his role.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
See, that is your own rule.
I am living breathing typing proof of "once was"
atlashunter
Senior Member
I think he’s saying you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave.
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Atlas, what’s missing is you have a broad based study of what? Just as bullet is making a point of which god would get credit? No one documented anything about these volunteers. You’re correct it wouldn’t need a medical explanation, but you’d at least need to narrow it down to “what god or God” did these folks believe in before you can declare which one or ones didn’t answer. There are folks that are religious and never opened a bible. There are folks that believe in multiple gods and God and pray to all of them. “That’s” what you need to validate. Not the results. Your results are suspect. It’s not that hard, most surveys say 8 out of 10 people that used Tylenol had headache relief. What you’re trying to push is 8 out of 10 people had no relief with headache medicine.
atlashunter
Senior Member
“The prayers came from three Christian groups, two Catholic, and one Protestant. The investigators report that, "We were unable to locate other Christian, Jewish, or non-Christian [groups] that could receive the daily prayer list required for the study." Such lists provided the first name and last initial of the patients.
The intercessors said a standard prayer "for successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications." This system provides a practical way to conduct the experiment, but limits the results to one type of prayer.”
Should one expect the prayers of Catholics and Protestants to be answered?
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
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Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
That’s biblical and faith..............how?
BTW, I only know two Catholics personally, neither believe in faith healing.............
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Read your statement again. Several times..
Maybe your idea of getting someone’s “take on things” works like an interview where only one asks the questions to the other.
And maybe my questioning you isn’t a defense that you’re familiar with.
Israel
BANNED
I am being convinced on a daily basis, and have an expectation of being further convinced that, had not the One who prayed "forgive them Father, they know not what they do" prayed that, I, and no one else also, would be here to discuss the efficacy of prayer.
Mercy is of such peculiar attribute to man, that he of himself, cannot recognize it when it is given. Man in assumption simply cannot perceive all power, being all merciful, for man assumes power to one end...to make himself known, to enlarge himself, to have the greater effect, to conquer...and assume a supremacy.
(And, it is not with contradiction that such quest is compelled precisely by the conviction of weakness. But of such unsure conviction that the lie remains compelling "one has just enough power...to gain more". And Adam has to be convinced through the consequence of disobedience that in grasping and eating (in the forbidding) he had made for himself, in bid for power, a whole existence and experience of living...hand to mouth. Adam..."have you had enough yet?")
But all power...has none of these impetus. And there is nothing "over it" to compel.
Now, the believer enters, no less than any other man would, into consideration of the "why" and "how" of such that He who is of all power be at all disposed to mercy. And not only to a doling, but to the very assignment to Himself of being the mercy full (merciful) God. For He cannot lie about Himself.
Skakespeare wrote "the quality of mercy is not strained". It is not given of efforts for recognition of the giver. (you know what I have never heard in the spirit of Jesus Christ? "But, look what I did for you!")
It is not paraded, it is not to any purpose of trumpeting itself, it is not even in the grandiose (of the self) disposition that such receiving likewise has had placed the demand of acknowledgment. Perfect mercy cannot be seen of mere man.
The fish...assumes water. In its presumption of being. All mere man knows, is allowed to know, to a purpose of exposing presumption itself, is hand to mouth.
It's a very thorough lesson, and made perfect when even strength to complain is sapped.
Mercy is of such peculiar attribute to man, that he of himself, cannot recognize it when it is given. Man in assumption simply cannot perceive all power, being all merciful, for man assumes power to one end...to make himself known, to enlarge himself, to have the greater effect, to conquer...and assume a supremacy.
(And, it is not with contradiction that such quest is compelled precisely by the conviction of weakness. But of such unsure conviction that the lie remains compelling "one has just enough power...to gain more". And Adam has to be convinced through the consequence of disobedience that in grasping and eating (in the forbidding) he had made for himself, in bid for power, a whole existence and experience of living...hand to mouth. Adam..."have you had enough yet?")
But all power...has none of these impetus. And there is nothing "over it" to compel.
Now, the believer enters, no less than any other man would, into consideration of the "why" and "how" of such that He who is of all power be at all disposed to mercy. And not only to a doling, but to the very assignment to Himself of being the mercy full (merciful) God. For He cannot lie about Himself.
Skakespeare wrote "the quality of mercy is not strained". It is not given of efforts for recognition of the giver. (you know what I have never heard in the spirit of Jesus Christ? "But, look what I did for you!")
It is not paraded, it is not to any purpose of trumpeting itself, it is not even in the grandiose (of the self) disposition that such receiving likewise has had placed the demand of acknowledgment. Perfect mercy cannot be seen of mere man.
The fish...assumes water. In its presumption of being. All mere man knows, is allowed to know, to a purpose of exposing presumption itself, is hand to mouth.
It's a very thorough lesson, and made perfect when even strength to complain is sapped.
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atlashunter
Senior Member
Pretty sure Catholics and Protestants believe prayers get answered. Jesus gave a prayer script too so that shouldn’t have been an issue. Had they not standardized the prayer then you’d be saying there was no way to know what they prayed for and I guess we would have to assume an omniscient god wouldn’t have known. Should they get more Christians to pray to improve the odds? Should they call up Benny Hinn or Peter Popov? Does god only heal people from certain denominations? Maybe they should get the church where you fixed your back to take part? You said it’s not hard to find Christians that can do faith healing but that sure seems to be the case. Maybe they got the wrong ones for that study and the wrong ones for the Mantra study. That’s possible. Or maybe prayer to a god is no better than prayer to an inanimate object.
atlashunter
Senior Member
I better get to the store and pick up some more popcorn. Looks like I’ll be waiting a while on this one.
atlashunter
Senior Member
I’d also like to know why faith healers aren’t going through children’s cancer hospitals and healing every kid in there.
WaltL1
Senior Member
We devoted a lot of hours to praying. Pretty sure we were expecting some sort of return on investment
atlashunter
Senior Member
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
Pretty straight forward. How many more stipulations do you need to insert into this verse to explain away prayer not working?
Pretty straight forward. How many more stipulations do you need to insert into this verse to explain away prayer not working?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Read your statement again. Several times..
Maybe your idea of getting someone’s “take on things” works like an interview where only one asks the questions to the other.
And maybe my questioning you isn’t a defense that you’re familiar with.
You asked me why I question the existence of only one God in here and I replied why, in detail.
Not only am I familiar with being questioned in here, I try to give an answer that contains as many verifiable facts as I can provide.
On the other hand, your answer to my answer was that I never seem to question any other gods. HOW is that a question at all? It is a statement.
When I am asked a specific question I give a specific answer. Since I am in this forum where the Christian god is the main subject, that is who I talk about. In other forums across the vast internet where other gods are discussed I discuss those.
When I ask you (or most other believers in here) about any other god you deflect the questions anyway....so why exactly would I talk about Vishnu to you when you can't answer those questions and all you talk about is Jesus/God anyway? And the majority of answers given in here about your god are not so much apologetic where a detailed explanation is given as much as they are assertions and claims that have zero proof to back them up.
When the conversation is about assertions and claims I/we ask for proof. How is that an unexpected or outlandish consequence of the conversation?
I am certainly in the right place and I defend my position.
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Couple of things here, after I ask you and you provide your “evidence” to support your disbelief, that’s a point to where I decide I either to believe it or not. We can bat back and forth on that with no issues.
The question was in context. The assertion and claim was made by atheist that prayer doesn’t work. The evidence provided was a poor attempt using a laughable experiment as proof. Play by your own rules and substantiate it with evidence. It works both ways.
The statement was made that a medical explanation wasn’t required if yall could see an improvement. The question was asked by you, how do we know which gods to give credit to?
You validated my point concerning the experiment in question.
How do you know which gods or God didn’t answer to support your assertion and claim? You assume that they all prayed to the same one? Did you even ask to find out? Did you even attempt to see if the folks receiving prayer believe in it?
Y’all claim to know the Bible better than anyone, and if you do, your scripture pulling reveals otherwise.
If you want to know something, ask it, you’ll get an answer. If you don’t like that answer, that’s fine.
I don’t focus on other gods. Once I’ve ruled them out, they’re gone.
