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  #26  
Old 02-07-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Have you ever seen the movie Inception? Good flick.
I just watched the trailer. I am going to try and watch it tomorrow.
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2018, 07:44 PM
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Who says that?

In formulating your response, was thought prior to consciousness or awareness?
Without any research into it, my initial answer would be that if I am alive I am conscious and aware.
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2018, 06:06 AM
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I think you passed the "mirror test".
I had to look that up.
Is it this?

The mirror test, sometimes called the mark test or the mirror self-recognition test (MSR), is a behavioural technique developed in 1970 by psychologist Gordon Gallup Jr. as an attempt to determine whether a non-human animal possesses the ability of visual self-recognition.


If it is that, a test designed by man to determine self recognition amongst "non humans" (with some passing the test) the limits of that test remain something conceived and bordered by the mind of man. (in other words it is man saying "let me see if any possess what I know of self consciousness"...which limits are subject to what man sees himself as possessing)

Nevertheless, is it wrong to then extrapolate that "recognition of self" therefore includes the inherent (whether it be inherent might be arguable by the "outside" influence in the making of the mark) ability to recognize not self? That the being recognizes the mirror image as "not self", not mistaking the mark placed there as upon a something else, but instead looks to itself for what the image displays?

This too, has significant ramifications in consciousness as to a certain mark left toward an initial discerning for a being. What that being is, as opposed to what it is not.


Do you remember this childhood riddle? (I think it's a variant on the two kids who fell down the chimney)
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Two boys were having fun in the school playground at lunchtime. The school bell rang, signalling that lunchime was over. As they turned to head back to class, a gust of wind scooped up some dirt off the ground and blew it right in their face. When the wind stopped, one boy's face was covered with dirt, while the other boy's face was perfectly clean. But it was the boy with the clean face who rushed to the washroom to wash his face, while the boy with the dirty face went straight to class.

Assuming both children had equally good hygiene habits, can you explain this strange behavior?
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Last edited by Israel; 02-09-2018 at 05:50 AM.
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  #29  
Old 02-10-2018, 12:53 PM
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What do you think happens to a person's brain when they die? What goes missing to make them dead? It would seem like all the ingredients are still there 30 seconds after death.

Do we know the main ingredient that keeps us alive?
what goes missing is the electrical charges created in and used by the brain. It's just like an unplugged toaster. The toaster is functionally sound, but without the electricity flowing it's not "alive" so to speak.
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  #30  
Old 02-10-2018, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by oldfella1962 View Post
what goes missing is the electrical charges created in and used by the brain. It's just like an unplugged toaster. The toaster is functionally sound, but without the electricity flowing it's not "alive" so to speak.
Not quite. When the electricity in people goes off something happens to telemeres that's so far un-reversable. They degrade and can't be repaired.....yet.

Then what? What happens when we can reverse or permanently stave off death? Is this something we should try to accomplish? I say absolutely yes. What would be the theological implications of this technology for believers? Anyone?
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  #31  
Old 02-11-2018, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Not quite. When the electricity in people goes off something happens to telemeres that's so far un-reversable. They degrade and can't be repaired.....yet.

Then what? What happens when we can reverse or permanently stave off death? Is this something we should try to accomplish? I say absolutely yes. What would be the theological implications of this technology for believers? Anyone?
None.
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  #32  
Old 02-11-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
None.

Do you think science should try to cure death?
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  #33  
Old 02-11-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Not quite. When the electricity in people goes off something happens to telemeres that's so far un-reversable. They degrade and can't be repaired.....yet.

Then what? What happens when we can reverse or permanently stave off death? Is this something we should try to accomplish? I say absolutely yes. What would be the theological implications of this technology for believers? Anyone?
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What happens when we can reverse or permanently stave off death? Is this something we should try to accomplish? I say absolutely yes.
That's interesting to think about but its got a lot of angles to consider.
First, we already more or less do that - patient flat lines, slap the paddles on him/her and get the heart going again.
But what does reverse/stave off death actually mean?
Permanent coma?
Bed ridden forever?
I cant help but think about in terms of like taking a 50 year old truck and rebuilding the engine.
Sure now the engine works again but the rest of the parts are still 50 years old and rusting/rotting away.
Not to mention, and this sounds awful cold but its worth considering, but who and how do we take care of a society full of people who are alive but cant work and all the other implications of reversing/staving off death.
We already warehouse the elderly, sick etc etc.
Now multiply that by XXXXX.
Who gets the stave off death shot/procedure? Those that can afford it? Those that are deemed "worth living longer"?
Huge, gigantic, massive can of worms.....
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  #34  
Old 02-11-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
That's interesting to think about but its got a lot of angles to consider.
First, we already more or less do that - patient flat lines, slap the paddles on him/her and get the heart going again.
But what does reverse/stave off death actually mean?
Permanent coma?
Bed ridden forever?
I cant help but think about in terms of like taking a 50 year old truck and rebuilding the engine.
Sure now the engine works again but the rest of the parts are still 50 years old and rusting/rotting away.
Not to mention, and this sounds awful cold but its worth considering, but who and how do we take care of a society full of people who are alive but cant work and all the other implications of reversing/staving off death.
We already warehouse the elderly, sick etc etc.
Now multiply that by XXXXX.
Who gets the stave off death shot/procedure? Those that can afford it? Those that are deemed "worth living longer"?
Huge, gigantic, massive can of worms.....
When the tech comes online they will theoretically be able to repair any damage, perhaps reverse aging. Some people involved in the applicable fields think that the first person to live to 1,000 is already alive. Say a 2 year old today lives to be 80. By that time they learn extend life to 150. During that next 70 years they figure out how to extend life to 400. And on and on.

Of course the rich will be the first to get the treatments.
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  #35  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Do you think science should try to cure death?
I do not think science is a thing in itself. If it were to be, it should stop killing people first.
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  #36  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
I do not think science is a thing in itself. If it were to be, it should stop killing people first.
I suppose I meant science as a pursuit performed by scientists.

Some scientific discoveries are used to kill people, others are used to cure people. Do you think it's a worthwhile pursuit to try to find a cure for death?
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  #37  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
I suppose I meant science as a pursuit performed by scientists.

Some scientific discoveries are used to kill people, others are used to cure people. Do you think it's a worthwhile pursuit to try to find a cure for death?
It is underway as we speak. I just don't expect much from science, other than for it to continue to claim too much for itself. It is inherent in its flaws. As you pointed out, science is humans.

The cure for death is an issue for the unbeliever. A believer knows that he lives as long as Christ lives.
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  #38  
Old 02-12-2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
That's interesting to think about but its got a lot of angles to consider.
First, we already more or less do that - patient flat lines, slap the paddles on him/her and get the heart going again.
But what does reverse/stave off death actually mean?
Permanent coma?
Bed ridden forever?
I cant help but think about in terms of like taking a 50 year old truck and rebuilding the engine.
Sure now the engine works again but the rest of the parts are still 50 years old and rusting/rotting away.
Not to mention, and this sounds awful cold but its worth considering, but who and how do we take care of a society full of people who are alive but cant work and all the other implications of reversing/staving off death.
We already warehouse the elderly, sick etc etc.
Now multiply that by XXXXX.
Who gets the stave off death shot/procedure? Those that can afford it? Those that are deemed "worth living longer"?
Huge, gigantic, massive can of worms.....
Yes.

With more cans found in every can opened.
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  #39  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Yes.

With more cans found in every can opened.
I have to agree.
Personally, I see more negatives than positives in the long term.
Maybe it boils down to I don't trust man with that kind of power.
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  #40  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
It is underway as we speak. I just don't expect much from science, other than for it to continue to claim too much for itself. It is inherent in its flaws. As you pointed out, science is humans.

The cure for death is an issue for the unbeliever. A believer knows that he lives as long as Christ lives.
The Bible was written by man. It has the same flaws that man has made everywhere else. In fact it has more flaws because from the time that it was written until now man has been able to better understand many of the things that were explained in the bible.
The believer uses the same man made writings as the non believer. The major difference is that while one side forbids/denies change the other is always looking to improve through change.
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  #41  
Old 02-12-2018, 01:28 PM
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But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
The Bible was written by man. It has the same flaws that man has made everywhere else. In fact it has more flaws because from the time that it was written until now man has been able to better understand many of the things that were explained in the bible.
The believer uses the same man made writings as the non believer. The major difference is that while one side forbids/denies change the other is always looking to improve through change.
Or the Writings use the believer and the non believer.
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
I have to agree.
Personally, I see more negatives than positives in the long term.
Maybe it boils down to I don't trust man with that kind of power.

Why?

You can't stop science from trying to cure death. Do you imagine some kind of Mahattan Project where all the world leaders get together and promise not to pursue the tech? On what grounds?
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Why?

You can't stop science from trying to cure death. Do you imagine some kind of Mahattan Project where all the world leaders get together and promise not to pursue the tech? On what grounds?
Oh I have no doubt science is and will work in that direction. Like I mentioned above, we already have made strides in that direction.
I'm just not convinced "curing death" (as in death is eliminated) is a good idea in the long term.
On the surface it sounds great.
We could probably spend days on discussing the environmental implications, days on the social implications, days on the political implications, days on the financial implications, days on the psychological implications, days on.......
I think Israel hit the nail on the head with this -
Quote:
With more cans found in every can opened.
Sure some of those cans will contain "positives".
I just envision lots more cans of negatives than positives.
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Oh I have no doubt science is and will work in that direction. Like I mentioned above, we already have made strides in that direction.
I'm just not convinced "curing death" (as in death is eliminated) is a good idea in the long term.
On the surface it sounds great.
We could probably spend days on discussing the environmental implications, days on the social implications, days on the political implications, days on the financial implications, days on the psychological implications, days on.......
I think Israel hit the nail on the head with this -

Sure some of those cans will contain "positives".
I just envision lots more cans of negatives than positives.
Anyone seen pet cemetery?
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Oh I have no doubt science is and will work in that direction. Like I mentioned above, we already have made strides in that direction.
I'm just not convinced "curing death" (as in death is eliminated) is a good idea in the long term.
On the surface it sounds great.
We could probably spend days on discussing the environmental implications, days on the social implications, days on the political implications, days on the financial implications, days on the psychological implications, days on.......
I think Israel hit the nail on the head with this -

Sure some of those cans will contain "positives".
I just envision lots more cans of negatives than positives.
Then we'll just have to be scared but it's worth it to keep trying to discover things.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:18 PM
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Then we'll just have to be scared but it's worth it to keep trying to discover things.
When you figure it out your not skeered.
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Then we'll just have to be scared but it's worth it to keep trying to discover things.
Scared?
I'm not scared. I'm a lot older than you are. I'll never see it
I absolutely agree we should continue to try to discover things.
I'm just not sure every discovery is a positive thing for everybody.
Kind of depends on how that discovery gets used.

Question -
Do you cherish time with your daughter? (I know you do)
Do you think the fact that you only will have a certain amount of time with her heightens that/makes you appreciate it more?
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:48 PM
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When you figure it out your not skeered.
Even though you may not be right.
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  #50  
Old 02-13-2018, 05:46 AM
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The Manhattan Project was mentioned.

It would be interesting to ask (if one stood next to Oppenheimer)

"What do you mean when you say 'I have become Shiva, destroyer of worlds.'?"

Everyone knows he did not "do it" on his own...but he obviously saw his part. And whether things unfolded (yet) in whatever he may have seen (if anything) ahead, his statement is not unlike what is called an ecstatic utterance, the plain revelation to him, and then through him to a truth.

He helped pop that can wide open, and in the moment of perfect sight of those worms (no longer of imagination) in their wiggling, he identified himself with the many armed destroyer. (Too deep an image?)

The struggle of man to put the Genii back in the bottle, to unring that bell seems endless. But, it has an appointed end.

For some "I can fix this" must give way to "My God, what have I done?"!

That seeing can only be borne in the Savior's light.



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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 02-13-2018 at 06:12 AM.
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