GON Magazine | GON Marketplace

Go Back   Georgia Outdoor News Forum > Woody's Campfire Talk > Political Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 03-10-2010, 03:58 PM
drhunter1's Avatar
drhunter1 drhunter1 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nunya
iTrader: (2) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
Just curious, to what extent do you think that a neighbor has a right as to decide what you do on your own property?
When his rights infringe upon yours. In other words, when your stinky, loud chickens and your eyesore chicken coops start diminishing my property value, you have infringed on my right to ask for fair market value abscent your intereference.
__________________
I'm here to kill threads and chew gum and I'm all out of gum.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-10-2010, 05:18 PM
Xzuatl's Avatar
Xzuatl Xzuatl is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Paulding County, Georgia
iTrader: (7) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhunter1 View Post
When his rights infringe upon yours. In other words, when your stinky, loud chickens and your eyesore chicken coops start diminishing my property value, you have infringed on my right to ask for fair market value abscent your intereference.
So then anything that lowers the property value of another residence is an infringement? If someone does something that increases the value of another residence, does that property owner owe the first some compensation?
__________________
“There's no settling down. It's going to be blood for blood and by the gallons. It's the old days. The bad days. The all-or-nothing days. They're back. There's no choices left. And I'm ready for war.”
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-10-2010, 05:23 PM
elfiii's Avatar
elfiii elfiii is offline
Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The country formerly known as America
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim View Post
He is an old bum and a new bum!
And proud to say I was a new bum and thankful I became and old bum.
__________________
"The World is fine. The circus just won't leave town." - PopPop
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Money man's Avatar
Money man Money man is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Henry County
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
So then anything that lowers the property value of another residence is an infringement? If someone does something that increases the value of another residence, does that property owner owe the first some compensation?
XZ, play fair. He didn't say "anything", he said chicken coops and smelly chickens.

Though actually, you bring up a good point. In some areas, the best investment into the neighborhood begins with the investment into your own property. Generally, good neighbors will do their best to follow suit to keep the grass cut and the yard tidy if they see their neighbors doing the same. If you do have an outlier, it is easier to see where the appropriate social pressure should be directed in order to remedy the situation.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-10-2010, 05:46 PM
Paleo's Avatar
Paleo Paleo is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: DeKalb
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhunter1 View Post
When his rights infringe upon yours. In other words, when your stinky, loud chickens and your eyesore chicken coops start diminishing my property value, you have infringed on my right to ask for fair market value abscent your intereference.
A "For Rent" sign in your next door neighbor's yard would put a lot more hurt on your property value than few chickens.A garish paint job or an ugly fence would as well. Above ground pool, Camaro in primer, 1 or 2 large dogs, Republican candidate political sign inside the Perimeter, etc.
The impact of these things would be hard to quantify.If you are truly concerned with the neighbors' aesthetic taste, hobbies, and lifestyle "infringing" on your property value there are housing developments with covenants to protect you. They dictate all sorts of things.Paint color, additions, landscaping and prohibit "eyesores" such as pickups, motorcycles, boats, American flags, outbuildings, yard sales etc.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-10-2010, 07:32 PM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Just curious, to what extent do you think that a neighbor has a right as to decide what you do on your own property?
When I am not able to enjoy my property because of what you are doing on your property.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-10-2010, 08:28 PM
Paleo's Avatar
Paleo Paleo is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: DeKalb
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
When I am not able to enjoy my property because of what you are doing on your property.
Do a half dozen laying hens next door impact your property?

City/suburban chickens are a big trend.
http://www.backyardchickens.com/
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Do a half dozen laying hens next door impact your property?
Do they make noise and disturb the peace?
Do they run loose?
Do they create a bad odor?
How big are out lots?
Do other neighbors have chickens too?

If there are 6 houses each on 1/4 acre lots, and each house has 6 chickens, then we are looking at 36 chickens in 1.5 acres... that sounds like there is going to be a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-10-2010, 09:01 PM
Paleo's Avatar
Paleo Paleo is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: DeKalb
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
Do they make noise and disturb the peace?
Do they run loose?
Do they create a bad odor?
How big are out lots?
Do other neighbors have chickens too?

If there are 6 houses each on 1/4 acre lots, and each house has 6 chickens, then we are looking at 36 chickens in 1.5 acres... that sounds like there is going to be a problem.
Better than 12 dogs on 1.5 acres.Do you think everyone is going to raise chickens? Here are some pictures of chicken coops from my link above.
http://www.backyardchickens.com/chicken-coop-small.html
The few people I know who've done this have slightly bigger lots and the chickens are in an area smaller than a dog pen.I wouldn't want to live in an urban neighborhood full of fightin' roosters but can't see any harm in a having a few layers and broilers along with the vegetable garden.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-10-2010, 09:29 PM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Better than 12 dogs on 1.5 acres.
I would also support limiting the number of dogs per acre.

Quote:
Do you think everyone is going to raise chickens?
They might if this law is passed.

Quote:
I wouldn't want to live in an urban neighborhood full of fightin' roosters but can't see any harm in a having a few layers and broilers along with the vegetable garden.
I don't see anything wrong with that either. Problem is, how many is "a few". What if I decide to plant my entire front and back yards in cabbage?

A wise political philosopher once said not to judge a law by its good effects if it is administered properly, but by its bad effects if it is administered improperly.

I think it would be best for people who want to be farmers to live on farms, not apartment buildings and townhouses.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-10-2010, 10:12 PM
Xzuatl's Avatar
Xzuatl Xzuatl is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Paulding County, Georgia
iTrader: (7) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
When I am not able to enjoy my property because of what you are doing on your property.
That can cover quite a lot. I guess you are willing to give government the power to decide who gets to enjoy what and in what manner on their own property.
__________________
“There's no settling down. It's going to be blood for blood and by the gallons. It's the old days. The bad days. The all-or-nothing days. They're back. There's no choices left. And I'm ready for war.”
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-10-2010, 10:17 PM
Paleo's Avatar
Paleo Paleo is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: DeKalb
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
They might if this law is passed.
So how is your chicken coop construction going? Leave room for it in the cabbage patch.

Quote:
A wise political philosopher once said not to judge a law by its good effects if it is administered properly, but by its bad effects if it is administered improperly.
This is more like repealing a bunch of laws than passing a new one. It is a restoration of property rights. As I read it you still have cause for action if your neighbors are creating a nuisance. The law would remove the power of a vindictive neighbor from getting you in trouble when your small scale subsistence agriculture isn't causing any real problems. Animals aside, shouldn't you be able to plant tomatoes and peppers in the front yard if that is the only spot that gets enough sun?

People who crave perfect uniformity and order can always buy in a neighborhood with restrictive covenants.

Balrog, what happened to your Buckwheat avatar? You inspired me to switch from Bettie Page to Mantan Moreland
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-10-2010, 10:18 PM
redneckcamo
Guest
 
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
That can cover quite a lot. I guess you are willing to give government the power to decide who gets to enjoy what and in what manner on their own property.
sounds like it dont it
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-10-2010, 10:43 PM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
I guess you are willing to give government the power to decide who gets to enjoy what and in what manner on their own property.
I believe the best way to handle this is to let the people locally decide what they do and don't want, rather than have it dictated to us by politicians in Atlanta.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-10-2010, 11:39 PM
Paleo's Avatar
Paleo Paleo is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: DeKalb
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
I believe the best way to handle this is to let the people locally decide what they do and don't want, rather than have it dictated to us by politicians in Atlanta.
I don't know about the chicken-keeping laws but your County and Municipal Code was probably largely written by politicians and lawyers here in Atlanta, many years ago.

(Ole Fuzzy and/or Elfiii might be able to confirm or deny this)
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-11-2010, 12:12 AM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
I don't know about the chicken-keeping laws but your County and Municipal Code was probably largely written by politicians and lawyers here in Atlanta, many years ago.
I like the laws the way they are now, and see no reason to change. If my county decided to change the laws, we could do so locally. If we go with the proposed state law, then to change it would require intervention at the state level. Politicians in Atlanta really don't need to control whether or not chickens are allowed in towns across Georgia.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-11-2010, 12:27 AM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Balrog, what happened to your Buckwheat avatar? You inspired me to switch from Bettie Page to Mantan Moreland
Back by popular demand...
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-11-2010, 02:26 AM
jason4445 jason4445 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calhoun, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

We have a no barnyard animal ordinance basically in reaction to the Mexicans moving in and bringing chickens and goats with them. About three years ago in a fairly affluent neighborhood the Mexicans rented a house built a pit, brought in a goat and slaughtered it for a Saturday night party. It so happened a rich cat woman saw the whole thing, called the cops for animal cruelty and things went from there) , and when you sit in the evening trying to enjoy the quite and and all you hear are three roosters 100's of yards apart crowing at each other all night you become all supportive of it.

Last year the city counsel thought about permitting chicken coops under certain restrictions. Then it would cost the coop builder $25 to have the city inspect if and approve it, and another $25 a year for a permit to have it. After word got out and phone calls were made I don't think I ever saw a local bill hit the trash can any faster.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-11-2010, 06:31 AM
Xzuatl's Avatar
Xzuatl Xzuatl is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Paulding County, Georgia
iTrader: (7) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
I believe the best way to handle this is to let the people locally decide what they do and don't want, rather than have it dictated to us by politicians in Atlanta.
And I have made the point that the people of Chicago and DC then should be able to decide to ban firearms without SCOTUS telling them otherwise.

Just because it is decided on a local level doesn't mean that it is in the interest of liberty. A person doesn't have a right to a high property value if it means infringing on another's right to do what they want on their own property (excluding noise/odor/light pollution issues of course).
__________________
“There's no settling down. It's going to be blood for blood and by the gallons. It's the old days. The bad days. The all-or-nothing days. They're back. There's no choices left. And I'm ready for war.”
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-11-2010, 07:44 AM
jimbo4116's Avatar
jimbo4116 jimbo4116 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Georgia
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
And I have made the point that the people of Chicago and DC then should be able to decide to ban firearms without SCOTUS telling them otherwise.

Just because it is decided on a local level doesn't mean that it is in the interest of liberty. A person doesn't have a right to a high property value if it means infringing on another's right to do what they want on their own property (excluding noise/odor/light pollution issues of course).
Not if the ordinance is un-constitutional. That is fight over banning handguns not regulating them as I am sure you know.

Goats and guns are apples and oranges. The constitution does not express the right to own a goat.

If someone wants to own goats, chickens or rabbits to raise as food, they should buy property zoned agriculture under police powers of the state.

If I don't want to live next to a neighbor with goats and chickens, I should not purchase property zoned or adjoining property zoned agriculture.

Zoning laws work when they are adhered to and enforced. This legislation is a waste of time and will only create more conflicts and confrontations.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-11-2010, 07:56 AM
Balrog's Avatar
Balrog Balrog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
iTrader: (27) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
And I have made the point that the people of Chicago and DC then should be able to decide to ban firearms without SCOTUS telling them otherwise.
Well you have made the point, but unfortunately the point is silly. Firearm ownership is constitutionally protected. Animal ownership is is not. Zoning laws have been on the books for hundreds of years, and go back to the time of the founding fathers and the Revolution.

I agree with Jimbo's previous post.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:35 AM
Money man's Avatar
Money man Money man is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Henry County
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
And I have made the point that the people of Chicago and DC then should be able to decide to ban firearms without SCOTUS telling them otherwise.

Just because it is decided on a local level doesn't mean that it is in the interest of liberty. A person doesn't have a right to a high property value if it means infringing on another's right to do what they want on their own property (excluding noise/odor/light pollution issues of course).
XZ clarify for me, are you self described as a libertarian or an anarchists?
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:52 AM
grim's Avatar
grim grim is offline
Moderate Anarchist and Retired Mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee
iTrader: (4) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo4116 View Post
If someone wants to own goats, chickens or rabbits to raise as food, they should buy property zoned agriculture under police powers of the state.

If I don't want to live next to a neighbor with goats and chickens, I should not purchase property zoned or adjoining property zoned agriculture.

Zoning laws work when they are adhered to and enforced. This legislation is a waste of time and will only create more conflicts and confrontations.
My neighborhood association goes a little further and clarifies no livestock other than horses. We had one neighbor try to defy it and raise chickens. He got rid of the chickens on the day he was to go to court and moved shortly there after. I will never understand how folks can sign their name to something like covenants, then go back on their (written) word later.
__________________
89.4% of all stats are made up on the fly.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:05 AM
jimbo4116's Avatar
jimbo4116 jimbo4116 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Georgia
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim View Post
My neighborhood association goes a little further and clarifies no livestock other than horses. We had one neighbor try to defy it and raise chickens. He got rid of the chickens on the day he was to go to court and moved shortly there after. I will never understand how folks can sign their name to something like covenants, then go back on their (written) word later.
Interesting you should mention horses, in Georgia horses are not considered livestock, but pets. Leaving the barn door open so to speak.

Another thing is unless the law has recently changed, deed restrictions or deed covenants are sunsetted. 20 years I believe.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:12 AM
Xzuatl's Avatar
Xzuatl Xzuatl is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Paulding County, Georgia
iTrader: (7) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo4116 View Post
Not if the ordinance is un-constitutional. That is fight over banning handguns not regulating them as I am sure you know.

Goats and guns are apples and oranges. The constitution does not express the right to own a goat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
Well you have made the point, but unfortunately the point is silly. Firearm ownership is constitutionally protected. Animal ownership is is not.
My point is entirely valid, and although I used SCOTUS as the "I said so, therefore it's true" arm of the federal government, I did not mean to infer that we are discussing constitutionality. The point was that a 'higher' level of government was protecting a natural right of a local citizen.

In the gun control example, the right to bear arms is protected under the constitution. But if it were not, it still would be a natural right and it would be a good thing that a higher government protect this right from the mechanizations of a local government.

It is the same with guns, marijuana, chickens, or hunting over corn. As long as bullets, bong water, rooster crowing, or corn kernels don't enter your property there is no harm no foul, or fowl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money man View Post
XZ clarify for me, are you self described as a libertarian or an anarchists?
Despite what others may say, I am not an anarchist. I prefer to define myself as a minarchist, i.e. minimal 'government'. I try to stay away from the libertarian label it is too often confused with the Libertarian party.
__________________
“There's no settling down. It's going to be blood for blood and by the gallons. It's the old days. The bad days. The all-or-nothing days. They're back. There's no choices left. And I'm ready for war.”
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 Georgia Outdoor News, Inc.Ad Management by RedTyger