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  #26  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:36 AM
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Wink Bro Ronnie, thou compellest me to wax political.... LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T View Post
Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?
Right out of High School I nearly made it into the service in '76, but back then the U.S. was out of Nam and there wasn't a call to arms, so to speak, and no longer a draft. So the requirements were pretty strict, and my teenage asthma cancelled the deal.

Even though this was 3 years before my conversion to Christ, I've often thought what would have been the outcome had I made it into service and a war was really going on at the time. And let's just say that somehow the truth still got to me and I believed in Jesus. I have to be honest and say I was dissapointed when I could not be accepted, and today I still have some regret that I couldn't serve my country.

And even with the possibility of having to fire a weapon, my conscience is clear concerning my duty to God, and my country. Sure, it will be one of the toughest things to do, but when our home is invaded, we have a right to defend our nation, like our right to defend our property.
I don't find in scripture anywhere that the word rebukes a man for either entering the draft or enlisting voluntarily.
In fact, Jesus Christ commended the *Centurian ( Luke 7:1-10 ) for... his deeds? his military service? No, but for his faith.
After Christ's words there isn't any indication that the Lord said he resign his position, however I'm sure the man's new-found life directed him to change from within. We would be careful not to presume that outcome (something law/religion would try and do). As the circumstances of his earthly call change and servicemen/leaders are pressured into evil and unrighteous acts (and this is true for whatever station/career we find ourselves in), he must needs deal with that with his Lord and with his leaders.
But just imagine for a minute what a testimony this Centurion had about the healing of his slave. This man's affections for a subordinate no doubt spoke volumes to the entire leigon under his command! (In fact, for the Centurion to even speak to Christ was considered an act of sedition, punishable by death. But now I am getting off topic).

So to answer your post Ronnie, I believe a "soilder in the Lord's army" (as in a Christian prayerfully wrestling against the forces of spiritual darkness) can indeed be a soilder serving in his country. It is still a noble vocation no matter the spiritual side of the fence one is on.
As to all the military leaders and all in active service... my prayers go out for wisdom and protection. Consider: 1Tim2:1-2
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers,
petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may
lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.


1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.



For further consideration:
1 Corinthians 7:24
Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

1 Corinthians 10:33
just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


*Centurian: A professional officer of the Roman army, and a commander of 60 to 80 men despite the commonly assumed 100.
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Last edited by StriperAddict; 04-13-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: scriptures and additions
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  #27  
Old 04-13-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T View Post
Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?
Do you know the movie "Sargeant York". It's not that easy to find but well worth the effort. It speaks directly to this question. I would say it's my favorite movie. It's generally consider, perhaps correctly, pro-war but mostly I see a story of a man who is true to his faith. From what I have read, about the movie and the man, he never wavered from that stance throughout his life. If you chose to make the effort to see it, be prepared to work at your watching, the details are important.
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  #28  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:59 PM
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I saw Sergeant York a long long time ago.
I'm not sure I remember it at all.
You must be much older than me.
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  #29  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:25 PM
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That movie is one i've always heard alot about but i've never seen it. I just watched a couple of scenes of it on you tube. In one they were at Camp Gordon here in Augusta. Looks like their are lots of Christian connections in the film. I'll have to watch the whole thing.
I'm reminded of how being a Christian and doing the work of our government can co-exist. I've heard my Dad say Jimmy Carter didn't make a good president because he was too good a Christian. I imagine he had some personal battles between his beliefs and government. I've also heard Christians don't do good in business because they are too honest to tell someone it was just a loose wire instead of selling them a new part.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T View Post
I saw Sergeant York a long long time ago.
I'm not sure I remember it at all.
You must be much older than me.
It came out in 1941 and I am younger than the movie. I made a tape of it from the TV about 15 years ago which is worn out.

Just watched it again, for the first time in about a year, because thinking of it rekindled a desire to get a DVD and while looking for one I got to reading people's reviews. Some stated that Sargeant York had decided to fight for his country, which is not the way I remembered it. I don't think, as protrayed in the movie, he did. Although the acting is not what we are accustomed to today (which is partially attributable to the restrictions York himself put on the production) it's still my all time favorite.

Just one aspect is the theology that is protrayed.
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  #31  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:53 PM
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I'll have to search and watch the movie.
Thanks.
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  #32  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T View Post
I'll have to search and watch the movie.
Thanks.
U tube has most of it. York a consciencious objector like most citizens everywhere, had issued to him a 1903 Springfield number 218102, and he followed orders to the degree we all would have to.
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Last edited by gordon 2; 04-15-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I've also heard Christians don't do good in business because they are too honest to tell someone it was just a loose wire instead of selling them a new part.
I can understand the selfish motivation, but it's a sad state of affairs when a Christian cannot believe God will bless honest business practices.
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  #34  
Old 04-14-2012, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by StriperAddict View Post
I can understand the selfish motivation, but it's a sad state of affairs when a Christian cannot believe God will bless honest business practices.
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:59 AM
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Conscience is something over which no other man has dominion.
What we do with its conformation to the Lord to the extent to which we have received, is in our hands alone.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.
There's a book out there by a Christian businessman with a similar story. Its called "God owns my Business", by Stanley Tam. Another book about his experiences: Stanley Tam's Incredible Adventures with God
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:29 PM
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No, I haven't come to grips with the passages in the OP. Folks have mentioned some instances recorded in the bible where "lawlessness" was modeled as a kind of circumstantial righteousness. I agree with Israel: our response to government boils down to exercise of our free will, informed by
conscience. I think Gary Cooper played the role of Alvin York. I've frequently thought of the movie scenes depicting York's personal struggle. Ultimately, Jesus' own words in response to pharisees' questions -- to the effect, Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's -- helped York resolve to enter WWI as a combatant. The movie depicts his struggle, his meditation, his earnest pressing into the Holy Spirit, and his epiphany. Given Sgt. York's actual record of accomplishment in that war, one could reasonably conclude that the Lord truly blessed him and preserved him. Some may say he was just born with a horseshoe to have survived, no, excelled, in the combat he faced. My take away: Scripture, the Word, will meet us where we're at, regardless of the fleshly legal
equations that exist. American law in York's time authorized conscription and conscientious objection. When York was drafted, he broke no law declaring himself a noncombatant. His struggle was over national patriotism in wartime versus the commandment that thou shall not kill. I greatly respect York, his service, his testimony and that movie. Same generally for our government and military. But I can't guarantee that Jesus's tax response would impel me to submit to the government in every instance outside of
that specific context. Same for Paul's writing to the Romans.

Last edited by Ronnie T; 04-15-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.
Well God does say to test Him...very few times does He say prove me if I will not prove to you.....
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Conscience is something over which no other man has dominion.
What we do with its conformation to the Lord to the extent to which we have received, is in our hands alone.
Amen!....free will....free will that I try to surrender every day. I have free will to surrender my free will...I like that. God help my unbelief!!
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  #40  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:04 AM
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The businessman I was trying to think of was R.G. Letourneau.
This is what he said: Some people think I'm all mixed up---that you can't serve the Lord and business, too, but that's just the point. God needs businessmen as partners as well as preachers.
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  #41  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
The businessman I was trying to think of was R.G. Letourneau.
This is what he said: Some people think I'm all mixed up---that you can't serve the Lord and business, too, but that's just the point. God needs businessmen as partners as well as preachers.
Amen.

Our companies are as much a mission field as are the unreached tribal groups of the Amazon, Africa, Austrailia, etc.

I think a problem is that Christians tend to segregate the 'secular' with the 'spiritual', when all we are, where we are, and all we do can be understood as 'spiritual'.
Does not the Spirit of God go and be with us where ever we are? According to Psalm 139, even in the obsure places we call worldly our God is there. We literally have the Spirit to direct us in any situation and bring His life, wether we see it, or are willing, or not.
The age old saying is true: Preach Christ always, use words when necessary.
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  #42  
Old 04-16-2012, 01:56 PM
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Picked this up on Wiki today and though it might fit in this tread re: Puritans


"Core views

In the relation of churches to civil power, Puritans believed that secular governors are accountable to God to protect and reward virtue, including "true religion", and to punish wrongdoers. They opposed the supremacy of the monarch in the church (Erastianism), and argued that the only head of the Church in heaven or earth is Christ.

The idea of personal Biblical interpretation, while central to Puritan beliefs, was shared with Protestants in general. Puritans sought both individual and corporate conformity to the teaching of the Bible, with moral purity pursued both down to the smallest detail as well as ecclesiastical purity to the highest level. They believed that man existed for the glory of God; that his first concern in life was to do God's will and so to receive future happiness.[15]"
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:13 AM
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I cannot escape the very simple notion that many a redcoat died with the name of Jesus on his lips.
I had a lengthy post that went far afield and perhaps derailed this thread to some extent, so I deleted it.
Basically it described my own experiences in justifying rebellion.
"Who is my neighbor?" was once asked of Jesus.
I rarely live up to the love that lays down its life for every son of Adam, but even so, I cannot deny I see One who did.


To this I add Jesus instructions regarding the Temple Tax.
The usurpers who demand tribute from others...without recognizing the true "sons" are paid their taxes for this one reason..."nevertheless, so as not to offend..."
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:24 AM
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And yet, Alvin York (perhaps fictionally) put his life at risk for authority (refusing to kill), and killed for the the life of his neighbor. Thus I study the story relative to scripture.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hummerpoo View Post
And yet, Alvin York (perhaps fictionally) put his life at risk for authority (refusing to kill), and killed for the the life of his neighbor. Thus I study the story relative to scripture.
Did you ever research if this movie was in part propaganda?
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:31 PM
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Did you ever research if this movie was in part propaganda?
Yes, but it's been a while and my memory is foggy. There was some question, but I think it was the other way. I think the concern of the producers was that the movie would be seen as pro-war in the climate of isolationism that prevailed prior to U.S. involvement in WWII. I do recall that an effort had been made to get York to approve the making of a movie from shortly after WWI, which he had rejected because he did not want to see his actions glorified. He, and the others depicted, extracted many guarantees concerning the production before the signed off on it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:21 PM
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Indeed: redcoat, minuteman, Yankee, confederate. Praying to our same Christ, sacrificing their lives, for neighbor, for their Lord. And how did the Body of Christ reconcile the irreconcilable call to arms by these warring governments? Despite the potential for advantage of perspective based on history, I can't reconcile Paul's discussion against this backdrop. If the current war of words over political and sociology-economic rights results in our government repeating history, or results in some new violent domestic chapter, I don't have a good answer to Ronnie's ominous OP. Have you come to terms with what Paul said?
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  #48  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:24 PM
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I occasionally hear someone include the following in a public prayer:

"Father, be with our service men and women who are fighting overseas so that we can continue to worship you freely and without fear of harm".

Frankly, that doesn't sit well with me. Based on history, I'm thinking that many prayers like that could give God the notion of letting us know what it's like to worship in fear!

Know what I mean?
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  #49  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BT Charlie View Post
Indeed: redcoat, minuteman, Yankee, confederate. Praying to our same Christ, sacrificing their lives, for neighbor, for their Lord. And how did the Body of Christ reconcile the irreconcilable call to arms by these warring governments? Despite the potential for advantage of perspective based on history, I can't reconcile Paul's discussion against this backdrop. If the current war of words over political and sociology-economic rights results in our government repeating history, or results in some new violent domestic chapter, I don't have a good answer to Ronnie's ominous OP. Have you come to terms with what Paul said?
The last two posts are a firestorm.
Admittedly...some of those who took up arms needed little in the way of outward incentive...that is...this whole notion of God and country (read "my" way of life) has become so ingrained as a sacred nostrum one can get easily scorched by messing with it.
Makes you consider Jesus many instructions as he preached to and amongst a people enjoying the company of a brutal occupying force.
Some might even say he sounded as though he saw past all the impotence of worldly power and authority to accomplish anything.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:08 AM
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Indeed: redcoat, minuteman, Yankee, confederate. Praying to our same Christ, sacrificing their lives, for neighbor, for their Lord. And how did the Body of Christ reconcile the irreconcilable call to arms by these warring governments? Despite the potential for advantage of perspective based on history, I can't reconcile Paul's discussion against this backdrop. If the current war of words over political and sociology-economic rights results in our government repeating history, or results in some new violent domestic chapter, I don't have a good answer to Ronnie's ominous OP. Have you come to terms with what Paul said?
"political and sociology-economic rights"

Is this an idol worshiped?
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