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  #26  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:36 PM
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[quote=hobbs27;6885718]There's always going to be some kind of subject or doctrine that denominations will hang their hats on to justify themselves of being "Gods true people".
I never heard of Osas either....cause I never heard anyone dispute it until the Pentecostal movement grew and made its way in my area.To me the idea of losing salvation is relatively new, and I don't read about it in the Bible, and the saints of old that I have read and studied their insight to Gods word..I never found where they address the idea either way.
I strongly believe that Once you are born into Gods kingdom you are a new creature forever....but I can worship with and love my brothers and sisters that think they can lose that....as I tell my buddy that believes that way, I don't care how many times you nuts have to be saved as long as you get it right at least once.[It goes back to 1901 Topeka, Kansas or 1905 Azusa St. Mission !! Good post Hobbs/QUOTE]
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:50 PM
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barryl, you gotta learn to use that quote function. You're leaving off the "[" in front of the "/QUOTE]".

OK, after rereading your post, you didn't leave it off. You've just got it in the wrong place:

[It goes back to 1901 Topeka, Kansas or 1905 Azusa St. Mission !! Good post Hobbs/QUOTE]
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  #28  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:59 PM
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Sorry CP, I'll get it right eventually
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  #29  
Old 04-25-2012, 04:06 PM
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No need to apologize. It just makes it hard to distinguish what you said from what you're quoting.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2012, 05:38 PM
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Hum. There is perhaps in general two readings of the same scipture that will give different meaning.

If one reads from the perspective of this-for-that, -t'it-for-tat, cause and effect---one gets a meaning in keeping with the reading, or a this-for-that meaning.

If one reads from the perspective of grace for grace, or this for this, a meaning will be different than the above meaning.

The same sun shines, the same light lights up differently these two different worlds.

Perhaps.

Luke 1:18-20

And Zacharias said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years."



And the angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time."

-----

And there was another Zacharius who climbed a tree.
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  #31  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:23 PM
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I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church. My sister believes in OSAS. I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie. I was taught that I was responsible for my own actions. I was taught that God would Punish me if I did wrong. It kept me in line knowing God would punish me. If i had believed in OSAS as a teenager, wow!
This was a Southern Baptist Church but most of my beliefs were from my Mom as it was her job to do the child rearing. She wasn't allowed to wear shorts, play cards, say "I swear" or "you're lying", etc. growing up. Her grandparents raised her and the went to New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose, Georgia.
It's weird to me how whole belief systems can change & evolve over time. I wonder if the members of New Hope follow my Great Grandparents beliefs.
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie.
Not quite. The "non-OSAS" group is pretty big.
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:31 PM
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Default Reminds me of this hymn

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:

This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church. My sister believes in OSAS. I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie.
It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.

Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,

1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?

2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?

I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him. I've heard numerous testimonies of people that have been decieved by man.Whether they have been drug down to an altar, told to repeat a prayer, or sign a card...Later on in their life God called and they answered truly, and got it right.
Many probably took the word of man they were saved, and went on to live without Christ...Those are the ones I suspect you think lost their salvation for they are living in the world. That's just my opinion, and for myself I will continue praying, reading, and asking for the Holy Spirit to guide the way for my understanding.
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  #35  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centerpin fan View Post
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:

This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
One of my favorites, use to sing it alot growing up. My beliefs have also changed/evolved over time. I still like the song though. Now, thanks to you, i'll think about this next time I sing it. (No hard feelings)
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.

Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,

1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?

2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?
I'll have to think about question #1, but #2 is: If God doesn't make any mistakes and died for everyone, why are some people still going to He11? That wasn't an answer to #2, ok let me try again: Salvation is a gift from God. God will never ask for his gift back. Short answer: You can give it back. Why? Freewill. You have "Blessed Assurance" if you want it.
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  #37  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.

Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,

1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?

2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?

I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him. I've heard numerous testimonies of people that have been decieved by man.Whether they have been drug down to an altar, told to repeat a prayer, or sign a card...Later on in their life God called and they answered truly, and got it right.
Many probably took the word of man they were saved, and went on to live without Christ...Those are the ones I suspect you think lost their salvation for they are living in the world. That's just my opinion, and for myself I will continue praying, reading, and asking for the Holy Spirit to guide the way for my understanding.
I have heard this definition my whole life..... unmerited favor.... but I have come to the conclusion it is probably the worst definition you can use for grace. All of God's gifts to us are undeserved love, or unmerited favor.

Did I deserve to be saved? No. Healed? no. My health? no. There is no gift from God that I deserve.

Mike Franklin probably has the best definition of grace I have heard.

Grace = God's power in me, doing for me, what I can not do for myself.

Just a thought......
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:25 PM
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Those following the Arminian Theological position base their belief that a person that was once saved can later fall from grace and lose that salvation. Among major groups that follow this teaching are the Weslyans, the Methodists, and the Nazarenes. I thought Baptist were Arminian.

2 Peter 1:10 states, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

They believe you must practise the "Christian Life". Goodbye Baptist, Hello Methodist. Uh-oh, they don't dunk. Still looking.
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him.
This is actually one of you guys reasonings. If a Christians goes off the deep end and rapes or murders someone, then he was never a Christian. This is a form of OSAS Lite Edition:

OSAS Lite

I call it "Lite" as a tongue in cheek kind of joke regarding to popular beers and alchohols, it still causes a drunken stupor, but with half the calories! This version teaches that a person is saved forever just by their little moment of faith, however, if they commit heinous sinful acts, then they were never really saved to begin with. The OSAS Lite crowd has the same cookie-cutter answers to just about every verse used to refute them. Usually their sneaky way out when I confront them on people backsliding, or falling into evil, turning from God etc. is to answer something along the lines of "They were never saved to begin with, or they wouldn't have done [evil deed] but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never [evil deed] for the rest of their life." It's very clever, but not irrefutable, here are the verses that the OSAS Lite folks cannot answer:....

http://www.thejesuscommandment.com/osas.html

Last edited by Artfuldodger; 04-26-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:14 PM
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Without quoting a lot of scriptures, please let me share my perspective as a person who does not subscribe to 'once saved always saved'.

I believe every Christian should be able to have confidence in their salvation. No disciple of Christ should ever go to bed at night worried that their salvation has been taken away. Committing sin will certainly not seperate a person from Christ, for Christ will forgive our sins. If a person is seeking Christ, they should probably have assurance of salvation.

Now, I can only speak for myself, because I cannot know the heart or history of any other person.
I cannot tell you if I've ever known any person who was once saved but has now lost it. No person is my servant so I freely allow God to make those calls. So I cannot tell you if I've ever met someone who was once saved, but now isn't. I don't know those things.

I know people who were at one time faithful to the Lord's church, but have now destroyed their marriage, childrens lives and their own lives. They now live horrible lives. They are horrible people. I don't know if they were ever truly saved, or if they will return to the Lord before death. Not my job.

When I read and study the Bible(in context, rightly divided) I find at least two places where Jew's became Christians, enjoyed the grace found in Jesus, experienced the heavenly gifts that are found in Jesus, but then turned back to their old Jewish beliefs and stopped believing in the grace and mercy of Jesus. The Bible writer states that, for those of them who have turned away from the grace of Jesus, their remains no more hope for them.

I also believe the Bible tells me that God has left me with the power to make decisions. And one of the greatest decisions he has left to me is my decision to love Him forever. God will not make that decision for me, and God will not force me to make that continual decision. God wants it to be my decision. He wants my free love and devotion.

That "Love" comes from me, everything else is only possible through God's touch in my life.

I don't live for Christ so that I can earn my way to heaven.
I don't live for Christ so that I can pay Christ back.

I live for Christ because I've become His disciple, and He lives in me.

I would never want someone to die and go to hel l because they 'thought' they got saved 30 years ago and today they read about 'once saved always saved'.

People like me don't believe a person earns their way to heaven. You get to heaven by knowing the landlord.
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
This was a Southern Baptist Church but most of my beliefs were from my Mom as it was her job to do the child rearing. She wasn't allowed to wear shorts, play cards, say "I swear" or "you're lying", etc. growing up. Her grandparents raised her and the went to New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose, Georgia.
Funny....I grew up in Ambrose and lived right around the corner from the church.
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  #42  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:56 AM
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The subject of the law has come up in this thread, and I believe it could help this discussion again. Allow my puny brain a question to believers here:

When you are tempted with sin, coveting/lust, for example, do you...

make the choice not to sin because the bible says not to?

or do you...

make the choice not to sin because you are free?




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  #43  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:08 AM
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Funny....I grew up in Ambrose and lived right around the corner from the church.
Nice little town, I've got a lot of family buried at New Hope, they migrated down from Upson County.
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  #44  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:13 AM
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You guys make this pretty complex. I find it simple. My son does not stop being my son when he does wrong. He is still my son and he gets disciplined. Now I love him and he could run away and I never see him again. He will still be my son and I will still and always love him. Now I am just a man. Imperfect. But my love for my boy is constant.

How much more so with God? He may chastise, etc. but nothing, and I mean nothing shall pluck them out of his hand.
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  #45  
Old 04-26-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
This is actually one of you guys reasonings. If a Christians goes off the deep end and rapes or murders someone, then he was never a Christian. This is a form of OSAS Lite Edition:

OSAS Lite

I call it "Lite" as a tongue in cheek kind of joke regarding to popular beers and alchohols, it still causes a drunken stupor, but with half the calories! This version teaches that a person is saved forever just by their little moment of faith, however, if they commit heinous sinful acts, then they were never really saved to begin with. The OSAS Lite crowd has the same cookie-cutter answers to just about every verse used to refute them. Usually their sneaky way out when I confront them on people backsliding, or falling into evil, turning from God etc. is to answer something along the lines of "They were never saved to begin with, or they wouldn't have done [evil deed] but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never [evil deed] for the rest of their life." It's very clever, but not irrefutable, here are the verses that the OSAS Lite folks cannot answer:....

http://www.thejesuscommandment.com/osas.html
At the end of this link you provided the guy suggests those that believe as I do are not Real Christians....
Ive read your posts and felt the spirit in your words, and I don't suggest you are not a Real Christian for your beliefs, but some that believe in Salvation just coming and going, I wonder sometimes if they aren't trying to do the impossible by attempting to live free of sin just to prove to themselves they are saved.
The night Jesus saved me, I was twelve years old and let me tell you...There's no question as to what happened.It was the most spiritual experience I've ever had...I don't think experiences like that just come and go...I fear some that are trying to live it to prove to themselves are lacking something...Too many folks are being misled by being drug down to altars, told to just repeat this prayer, or sign this card..or just confess Jesus....I wish the whole world could share with me what Jesus gave to me that night!
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  #46  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:38 PM
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At the end of this link you provided the guy suggests those that believe as I do are not Real Christians....
Ive read your posts and felt the spirit in your words, and I don't suggest you are not a Real Christian for your beliefs, but some that believe in Salvation just coming and going, I wonder sometimes if they aren't trying to do the impossible by attempting to live free of sin just to prove to themselves they are saved.
The night Jesus saved me, I was twelve years old and let me tell you...There's no question as to what happened.It was the most spiritual experience I've ever had...I don't think experiences like that just come and go...I fear some that are trying to live it to prove to themselves are lacking something...Too many folks are being misled by being drug down to altars, told to just repeat this prayer, or sign this card..or just confess Jesus....I wish the whole world could share with me what Jesus gave to me that night!
I don't agree with everything the guy was saying in the link. It was just provided for reference.I've heard preachers say certain denominations weren't real Christians because they were baptised wrong etc. I personally would never try to guess anyones salvation let alone say whether they are a Christian or not.
Please forgive me if I come across as doing that.
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  #47  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:42 PM
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I went back and re-read his closing statements. I would say he went overboard with some of his remarks.
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  #48  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:58 PM
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Default Trust and Pride

From the top, Do you trust in the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ ? Before you answer,take a few minutes to study the doctrines of Salvation{Soteriology} Adoption{changed position}, Regeneration { a changed nature},Justification {a changed standing}, sanctification{a changed character}, Imputation{sinner is charged with Christ's righteousness and Jesus Christ is charged with his sins}. If you ever get hold of these things you will never doubt your salvation. You will know the difference between a charasmatic experience or feeling and Bible regeneration. You will know when a man is lying to you when he is quoting the Scripture or when a man is trying to decieve you by quoting Scripture. Work of Righteuosness Isaiah 32:17 KJV 1611 AV Do you trust Gods perfect righteuosness, The Lord Jesus Christ, or are you trusting your own selfrighteousness ? Only two knows, you and God !! Its been mentioned earlier that assurance does'nt mean much to God, go ask him, I believe you will find out whether it does or not !! Now go and get alone with God, get it worked out with him and his son 2 Cor. 5:21 KJV 1611 AV You can know ! Knowing will make you an effective witness for Christ !!!!
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  #49  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I went back and re-read his closing statements. I would say he went overboard with some of his remarks.
Agree, and I know you don't judge as he did.How about a non-alcoholic cheers?
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:00 AM
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Nice little town, I've got a lot of family buried at New Hope, they migrated down from Upson County.
When I moved from Ambrose gas was .50 cent a gallon...I still have a lot of kin folk that live in Coffee Co.
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