I would like your answers to this if you are so inclined....

[jmharris23]

For those of you who do not believe in the God of the bible......would you share with me your thoughts on Jesus Christ?

For example....do you believe he was a misguided man with good intentions, a good moral teacher, a lunatic, or didn't exist at all. These are just a few examples.

I am working on something for a project and would just like to hear what you think about Jesus.

[dawg2]

This should be interesting...

[centerpin fan]

He was a killer -- a child-slaughtering monster who left a trail of blood and gore over 6,000 years of history.

[jmharris23]

Just FYI, I will "abuse" my mod powers in this thread in order to keep it on topic. Thanks for understanding

[TheBishop]

A philosopher that was killed for his teaching perhaps.

[jmharris23]

Thanks....let me also say, I would rather this not turn in to a debate, but just that people would like, TheBishop, give their answers. Thanks again

[Four]

I really never think about it to be honest, if i hear someone referring to Jesus Christ, I immediate think "not real" or so, i generally don't consider the historical figure.

Without researching the historical evidence, i think its a good possibility that it wasn't even one person. Jesus is basically a common first name, similar to Josh, and christ isn't a real last name, its a title.

So with something so ambiguous it could easily be a "john doe" type name given to a collection of people that caused some philosophical trouble for the Jews.

[jmharris23]

Is this it? I thought more might answer this

[Asath]

“......would you share with me your thoughts on Jesus Christ?”

Whew. Not so easy a topic, as intended, so I suppose the paucity of responses at this point is understandable.

Central to the idea of ‘sharing thoughts’ on the subject is the reality that the idea of the Jesus figure holds a place of more than passionate reverence for both Christians and Muslims, both of whom are totally committed to the physical existence of such a figure. Speaking against this thought has, until very recently, been a capital offense within Christianity, and still is a capital offense in certain Muslim societies. Causing a large portion of the world to call for your immediate extermination as a ‘heretic’ might give any intelligent person pause.

That said, there is a large body of thought that doubts the historicity of Jesus, and unfortunately these are not the usual ‘fringe’ thinkers or garden-variety nutballs, but rather serious scholars who have delved deeply into the ‘evidence,’ or lack of same, and have all come away with largely the same thought.

Most scholarly opinion on the matter holds that that there WAS such a person, but that his actual life story was quickly displaced by the myth-making necessary to the formation of any cult. Others, perhaps better versed in ALL of the religious myths that have taken hold over the ages, hold that an actual historical figure isn’t necessary to explain the very few apparently ‘biographical’ details in the Gospels. In other words, there MAY have been such a person behind all of the legends, but the mechanisms of all known Belief systems are so easily seen in the formulation of this particular example that there didn’t really NEED to be such a person.

And this is hardly a matter to be considered lightly. The history of Christianity, in the early, formative stages, is murky at best, but remains one of the most important developments in human history. For Muslims, Jesus was one of the most important of God’s prophets, who would come again on the last day and kill the Antichrist. If it came to light that Jesus did not exist, or was at best a wandering Rabbi around whose short ministry an enduring mythology had been built, it would have obvious consequences – essentially tossing all of the New Testament as well as the Koran into question, and alienating hundreds of millions of ‘Believers’ of several stripes whose lives had been built around such belief.

However, we are no longer in the age of the flat-earth adherents, who similarly numbered nearly everyone, and summarily executed anyone who doubted their assertions. Hundreds of millions of people CAN be wrong, and a reading of history reveals that the vast majority has ALWAYS been wrong. And there is no mystery in this either – humans are herd animals, depending on each other for their mutual survival, and anyone who breaks ranks with the leadership of the moment threatens the rest of the herd, and must be culled.

The problem of Jesus, aside the societal fear and intimidation surrounding the question, is that it is impossible for any serious historian to employ either the Bible or the Koran as an historical documentation of anything at all. If either one was infallibly, historically accurate, and did, indeed, contain all of the Truth that needed to be known, then all of progress would have been arrested over a thousand years ago. Bringing either Christian or Muslim FAITH into what should be a disinterested historical inquiry undermines any search for the real truth, and the fact of progress in the face of those Faiths, and the steady retreat of the dogmas of Belief in the face of new discoveries should also be enough to give even the most stubborn and vehement of believers pause.

To my mind, since I’m getting long-winded here, it is a certainty, in any historical context, that the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels were never spoken by any such person, since the Gospels were written by unknown authors some forty to eighty years after the crucifixion that is therein described. We can use all manner of evidence here, but to use only one – the Gospel of Mark is considered by most scholars to have been the earliest of them, but the Epistles of Paul reliably predate this writing, and make no mention whosoever of many of the details of the life of Jesus that we find in Mark. There is no mention of Jesus’ parents, or the Virgin Birth, or of a place of birth, or of John the Baptist, or of Judas, or of Peter’s denial, among many other rather crucial details that have entered firmly into the mythology, such as the miracles, the trial before a Roman official, the place of execution, nor even to Jerusalem.

There is also very little in the Non-Christian evidence, since of about sixty actively writing historians who were known to exist during the first century Roman world, there is amazingly little corroboration, and what little there is (from Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius) is vague, inconclusive, and unhelpful.

A charitable conclusion, built on the evidence, and lack of same, is that there may well have been a man, named Jesus, who hated the historical circumstances of dictatorship and oppression into which he was born, and who preached rebellion against this nonsense, and who was executed, along with hundreds of rebels like him, for that ‘rabble-rousing’ agitation.

Who knows why, when thousands are protesting, that one man is singled out and becomes the ‘Martin Luther King’ of his generation? A symbolic figurehead for everything that is wrong? Things needed to change, and whether history reveals that change to have been for the better is up to others to decide. But for my own part I view the Jesus figure, whether real or invented, to have been the lightning rod for a grass-roots rebellion, and one of the most successful ones in all of history.

I do not, however, subscribe to the thought that anyone or anything can be elevated to the status of deity.

[Artfuldodger]

Originally Posted by jmharris23

For those of you who do not believe in the God of the bible......would you share with me your thoughts on Jesus Christ?

For example....do you believe he was a misguided man with good intentions, a good moral teacher, a lunatic, or didn't exist at all. These are just a few examples.

I am working on something for a project and would just like to hear what you think about Jesus.

Not that I am either but how would Jews & Muslims figure into your research. I've read some old post where a Jewish guy posted on here alot, but he doesn't respond any more. Either we don't have a lot of Jews & Muslims in Georgia or they don't hunt for wild hogs or cast for shrimps.

It would be nice to have some other religious people on here to debate with other than the Atheists.

[ambush80]

I used to think he had long blonde hair, blue eyes and carried a lamb around with him wherever he went. I prayed to him when I was afraid of the dark. Then I thought he was dark complected and had black hair and brown eyes and that he was a philosopher that people greatly admired. I stopped being afraid of the dark and didn't pray to him anymore. Now I don't think about him much except when I see what belief in him does to people.

[Six million dollar ham]

Originally Posted by TheBishop

A philosopher that was killed for his teaching perhaps.

Not a bad answer.

What I would piggyback onto TB's answer is that if he existed (note - I'm open to the idea that he existed) there was nothing divine about him. No miracles, no flying, no resurrection.

[TheBishop]

Originally Posted by Six million dollar ham

Not a bad answer.

What I would piggyback onto TB's answer is that if he existed (note - I'm open to the idea that he existed) there was nothing divine about him. No miracles, no flying, no resurrection.

Its exactly how one of my heros saw him. Thomas Jefferson, he even wrote his own bible void of all the miracles and the resurrection.

[vowell462]

Originally Posted by TheBishop

A philosopher that was killed for his teaching perhaps.

yep.

[ted_BSR]

Originally Posted by Asath

“......would you share with me your thoughts on Jesus Christ?”

Whew. Not so easy a topic, as intended, so I suppose the paucity of responses at this point is understandable.

Central to the idea of ‘sharing thoughts’ on the subject is the reality that the idea of the Jesus figure holds a place of more than passionate reverence for both Christians and Muslims, both of whom are totally committed to the physical existence of such a figure. Speaking against this thought has, until very recently, been a capital offense within Christianity, and still is a capital offense in certain Muslim societies. Causing a large portion of the world to call for your immediate extermination as a ‘heretic’ might give any intelligent person pause.

That said, there is a large body of thought that doubts the historicity of Jesus, and unfortunately these are not the usual ‘fringe’ thinkers or garden-variety nutballs, but rather serious scholars who have delved deeply into the ‘evidence,’ or lack of same, and have all come away with largely the same thought.

Most scholarly opinion on the matter holds that that there WAS such a person, but that his actual life story was quickly displaced by the myth-making necessary to the formation of any cult. Others, perhaps better versed in ALL of the religious myths that have taken hold over the ages, hold that an actual historical figure isn’t necessary to explain the very few apparently ‘biographical’ details in the Gospels. In other words, there MAY have been such a person behind all of the legends, but the mechanisms of all known Belief systems are so easily seen in the formulation of this particular example that there didn’t really NEED to be such a person.

And this is hardly a matter to be considered lightly. The history of Christianity, in the early, formative stages, is murky at best, but remains one of the most important developments in human history. For Muslims, Jesus was one of the most important of God’s prophets, who would come again on the last day and kill the Antichrist. If it came to light that Jesus did not exist, or was at best a wandering Rabbi around whose short ministry an enduring mythology had been built, it would have obvious consequences – essentially tossing all of the New Testament as well as the Koran into question, and alienating hundreds of millions of ‘Believers’ of several stripes whose lives had been built around such belief.

However, we are no longer in the age of the flat-earth adherents, who similarly numbered nearly everyone, and summarily executed anyone who doubted their assertions. Hundreds of millions of people CAN be wrong, and a reading of history reveals that the vast majority has ALWAYS been wrong. And there is no mystery in this either – humans are herd animals, depending on each other for their mutual survival, and anyone who breaks ranks with the leadership of the moment threatens the rest of the herd, and must be culled.

The problem of Jesus, aside the societal fear and intimidation surrounding the question, is that it is impossible for any serious historian to employ either the Bible or the Koran as an historical documentation of anything at all. If either one was infallibly, historically accurate, and did, indeed, contain all of the Truth that needed to be known, then all of progress would have been arrested over a thousand years ago. Bringing either Christian or Muslim FAITH into what should be a disinterested historical inquiry undermines any search for the real truth, and the fact of progress in the face of those Faiths, and the steady retreat of the dogmas of Belief in the face of new discoveries should also be enough to give even the most stubborn and vehement of believers pause.

To my mind, since I’m getting long-winded here, it is a certainty, in any historical context, that the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels were never spoken by any such person, since the Gospels were written by unknown authors some forty to eighty years after the crucifixion that is therein described. We can use all manner of evidence here, but to use only one – the Gospel of Mark is considered by most scholars to have been the earliest of them, but the Epistles of Paul reliably predate this writing, and make no mention whosoever of many of the details of the life of Jesus that we find in Mark. There is no mention of Jesus’ parents, or the Virgin Birth, or of a place of birth, or of John the Baptist, or of Judas, or of Peter’s denial, among many other rather crucial details that have entered firmly into the mythology, such as the miracles, the trial before a Roman official, the place of execution, nor even to Jerusalem.

There is also very little in the Non-Christian evidence, since of about sixty actively writing historians who were known to exist during the first century Roman world, there is amazingly little corroboration, and what little there is (from Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius) is vague, inconclusive, and unhelpful.

A charitable conclusion, built on the evidence, and lack of same, is that there may well have been a man, named Jesus, who hated the historical circumstances of dictatorship and oppression into which he was born, and who preached rebellion against this nonsense, and who was executed, along with hundreds of rebels like him, for that ‘rabble-rousing’ agitation.

Who knows why, when thousands are protesting, that one man is singled out and becomes the ‘Martin Luther King’ of his generation? A symbolic figurehead for everything that is wrong? Things needed to change, and whether history reveals that change to have been for the better is up to others to decide. But for my own part I view the Jesus figure, whether real or invented, to have been the lightning rod for a grass-roots rebellion, and one of the most successful ones in all of history.

I do not, however, subscribe to the thought that anyone or anything can be elevated to the status of deity.

The importance of a particular original post can be determined by the number of lines it takes Asath to give his opinion. Excellent OP.

[ambush80]

Originally Posted by ted_BSR

The importance of a particular original post can be determined by the number of lines it takes Asath to give his opinion. Excellent OP.

Your jabs are becoming tiresome and trite. Why not try to add to the discussion?

[dexrusjak]

Jesus existed but was completely human - - no virgin birth, no miracles, no resurrection, etc.

[turkeyhunter835]

Originally Posted by dexrusjak

Jesus existed but was completely human - - no virgin birth, no miracles, no resurrection, etc.

this right here is your answer~!~

[Asath]

“Jesus existed but was completely human”

One needs to be very careful here – an assertion like this one leaves one open to the same standards that attend ALL assertions of fact.

One’s ‘belief’ is not a factor.

CAN it be demonstrated that the Jesus figure existed as a real person?

This question is the predicate upon which all else is founded.

By any standard one wishes to apply, aside the ‘belief-based,’ the genuine historical evidence is pretty thin, and given what IS known about the historical period, where the gruesome execution of ‘rabble-rousers’ and ‘dissenters’ was routine as an example to the masses, it seems as likely that such an individual man existed as it is likely that the idealized figurehead is an amalgam of ALL of those who resisted and perished for their rebellion. Remember here that the stories did not become written lore and legend for many, many years after the supposed fact.

Similar to the Civil Rights movement, but multiplied by about a thousand, nearly everyone was under the whip-hand of a central dictatorship that they found intolerable. In such a tinderbox, ANY spark that took hold was certain to create a wildfire. Fires of rebellion may take hold, and even today we witness riots that appear to be unreasonable and ‘spontaneous,’ but it is only well after the initial reactions that thoughtful folks look back and see the reasons. A long and thoughtful view suggests that this is quite likely the case with the Jesus figure.

One man probably did not create the overall movement, but in order to have a center to rally around, the movement may well have taken one man as their center.

And again, in an era where little was known, scientifically, and the rising Sun was still God-driven, nearly everything that was different or successful was attributed to the spirit world. Little wonder, then, that a grass-roots rebellion against the most powerful government on Earth would give ‘Divine’ attribution to their odd, and wholly unexpected, success.

[stringmusic]

Originally Posted by Asath

“Jesus existed but was completely human”

One needs to be very careful here – an assertion like this one leaves one open to the same standards that attend ALL assertions of fact.

One’s ‘belief’ is not a factor.

CAN it be demonstrated that the Jesus figure existed as a real person?

This question is the predicate upon which all else is founded.

By any standard one wishes to apply, aside the ‘belief-based,’ the genuine historical evidence is pretty thin, and given what IS known about the historical period, where the gruesome execution of ‘rabble-rousers’ and ‘dissenters’ was routine as an example to the masses, it seems as likely that such an individual man existed as it is likely that the idealized figurehead is an amalgam of ALL of those who resisted and perished for their rebellion. Remember here that the stories did not become written lore and legend for many, many years after the supposed fact.

Similar to the Civil Rights movement, but multiplied by about a thousand, nearly everyone was under the whip-hand of a central dictatorship that they found intolerable. In such a tinderbox, ANY spark that took hold was certain to create a wildfire. Fires of rebellion may take hold, and even today we witness riots that appear to be unreasonable and ‘spontaneous,’ but it is only well after the initial reactions that thoughtful folks look back and see the reasons. A long and thoughtful view suggests that this is quite likely the case with the Jesus figure.

One man probably did not create the overall movement, but in order to have a center to rally around, the movement may well have taken one man as their center.

And again, in an era where little was known, scientifically, and the rising Sun was still God-driven, nearly everything that was different or successful was attributed to the spirit world. Little wonder, then, that a grass-roots rebellion against the most powerful government on Earth would give ‘Divine’ attribution to their odd, and wholly unexpected, success.

Yes, I'm sure that Jesus, His disciples, and His followers decided to start a rebellion against a government that was sure to murder them over that rebellion, they all had a death wish. Great theory, although not your own, surely you see the irrationality of it.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by stringmusic

Yes, I'm sure that Jesus, His disciples, and His followers decided to start a rebellion against a government that was sure to murder them over that rebellion, they all had a death wish. Great theory, although not your own, surely you see the irrationality of it.

News Flash:
Jesus and followers were not the only ones put to death for rebelling against gov't and religion during that time period.

More at 11......

[stringmusic]

Originally Posted by bullethead

News Flash:
Jesus and followers were not the only ones put to death for rebelling against gov't and religion during that time period.

More at 11......

I won't need to tune in at 11, that wasn't my argument.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by stringmusic

I won't need to tune in at 11, that wasn't my argument.

Irrationality was your argument?

[Asath]

“Jesus and followers were not the only ones put to death for rebelling against gov't and religion during that time period.

More at 11......”

Um? That was my point.

EVERYONE who rebelled against authority was put to death, to make an example. Add to this fact, the fact that very few people could read or write. Add to those facts the fact that nothing at all was written in any form about the first THIRTY YEARS of the life of the Jesus figure. Add to THAT the fact that nothing at all was written about even the last three years of the life of the Jesus figure until anywhere between forty and seventy YEARS (depending of who you rely upon for this dating) after the execution. Then take THOSE very few writings, and compare them to each other.

THEN toss into the mix a few thousand years of infighting, factionalization, splits, schisms, purges, rewritings, enforced burning of competing writings and writers, terror campaigns, inquisitions, and the authoritative elimination of dissent that goes on to this day – and THERE you have the basis of modern Belief, in a nutshell.

There really isn’t very much to recommend it as something you would put up against, say, Jesus popping onto the Leno Show to make sure that His message hasn’t been garbled up into a pile of odd distortions that have served only to solidify and maintain the power of the few over the many.

Because that is the truth of what has happened, if there actually was such a figure who actually had such a short ministry that actually became what we see of it today. One would think, quite reasonably, that any such God-figure would be appalled, and might set things straight after only two thousand years. If the Creationists are right, nobody at all has heard or seen a thing in over a third of the time that all of Creation has existed.

That seems a bit lazy.

[bullethead]

agreed

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by TheBishop

Its exactly how one of my heros saw him. Thomas Jefferson, he even wrote his own bible void of all the miracles and the resurrection.

Sounds like an alltime number one seller....was it?

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by bullethead

News Flash:
Jesus and followers were not the only ones put to death for rebelling against gov't and religion during that time period.

More at 11......

News flash?

Does that mean you think we're too stupid to know that? And since you must......why don't you tell us who they were? and I'm expecting you to back it up with "scripture/history/facts".....not just some made up fantasy. And if you can't, I'm not gonna go asearchin' for it like you always expect us to do....just back it up with sumpin for a change....otay? What religion etc etc.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by ambush80

I used to think he had long blonde hair, blue eyes and carried a lamb around with him wherever he went. I prayed to him when I was afraid of the dark. Then I thought he was dark complected and had black hair and brown eyes and that he was a philosopher that people greatly admired. I stopped being afraid of the dark and didn't pray to him anymore. Now I don't think about him much except when I see what belief in him does to people.

Wow.....someone didn't teach you right....no wonder you think like you do about it. No one ever told me anything like that at all.....I guess those same people told you not to get out of the bed because there were bears under the bed and if you got up the bears would drag you under the bed....great teachers....I bet they told you there were monsters in the closet watching you and Jesus would send you to hades if you didn't go to sleep in 15 minutes, too, didn't they?.....that was a lie from satan. I feel sorry for how you were raised....you were sorely misled.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by dexrusjak

Jesus existed but was completely human - - no virgin birth, no miracles, no resurrection, etc.

Prove it.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by Four

I really never think about it to be honest, if i hear someone referring to Jesus Christ, I immediate think "not real" or so, i generally don't consider the historical figure.

Without researching the historical evidence, i think its a good possibility that it wasn't even one person. Jesus is basically a common first name, similar to Josh, and christ isn't a real last name, its a title.

So with something so ambiguous it could easily be a "john doe" type name given to a collection of people that caused some philosophical trouble for the Jews.

Sort of like if you aren't of Christ you are of the group of the antiChrist? it can only be one or the other. Just wondering.

[Four]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Sort of like if you aren't of Christ you are of the group of the antiChrist? it can only be one or the other. Just wondering.

I suppose, I would think of it as a-Christ vs. anti-Christ. But no more am I apart of the anti-Thor, and anti-Shiva, and anti-Muhammad..

I just prefer atheist in general.

[atlashunter]

Apocalyptic cult leader?

[Sterlo58]

I thought this was not supposed to turn into a debate.

Is that possible in a religion or politics forum ?

[hdm03]

I saw Jesus the other night on "Family Guy." I think he is funny!!!

[Huntinfool]

Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.

[atlashunter]

Originally Posted by Huntinfool

Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.

Yeah sort of like Mohammed... or some of the modern day cult leaders that manage to convince people they have some special relationship to a deity.

[fish hawk]

Originally Posted by Huntinfool

Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.

Whats also amazing is the motley crew he used to wright the bible and the 12 he used to spread the gospel.....Apart from Paul, who was highly educated, the others would have had a basic education in the Mosaic Law and in their Hebrew faith.Two were fishermen, and another two sons of a fisherman.A hated tax collector,a tent maker who persecuted Christians and was present when Stephen was stoned to death for his faith, and looked on with approval.....Sounds like this Jesus fellow had it "going on"

[Huntinfool]

Originally Posted by atlashunter

Yeah sort of like Mohammed... or some of the modern day cult leaders that manage to convince people they have some special relationship to a deity.

I should know this, but I don't. Have things on the level of raising people from the dead and sacrificing himself to sell the lie been ascribed to other modern day cult leaders? Mohammed?

[atlashunter]

Originally Posted by Huntinfool

I should know this, but I don't. Have things on the level of raising people from the dead and sacrificing himself to sell the lie been ascribed to other modern day cult leaders? Mohammed?

Miracles have been attributed to both Mohammed and modern cult leaders, much like the case with Jesus. Have any of these claims actually been demonstrated to be true? Not a single one.

Jesus also exhibits some behaviors in the bible that are typical to cult leaders. He instructs followers to sell everything they have and follow him without giving a thought for the morrow.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

That sounds much like something you could hear Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Wayne Bent say.

The question is, is that account of him accurate? Maybe he never even said these things? Maybe he never really claimed to be the messiah and was killed on behalf of the Pharisees for political reasons. But if the accounts are accurate in this respect it strikes me as the personality of a cult leader.

[atlashunter]

Originally Posted by Huntinfool

Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.

Ever heard of Sathya Sai Baba?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_...d_clairvoyance

[Huntinfool]

Originally Posted by atlashunter

Ever heard of Sathya Sai Baba?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_...d_clairvoyance

No....but the "miracles" he was said to have performed (according to that link) ain't NOTHIN' compared to what they ascribed to Jesus.

That was my point. At least this guy's followers had the sense to ascribe something that MIGHT be believable. Jesus' followers just went ahead and went right over the top, didn't they? I guess they figured, "Heck, while we're makin' this crap up....go big or go home, right?"

In any case, JM asked that this not turn into a debate. So I'll leave that discussion for another day.

[atlashunter]

Some of the reported miracles included levitation (both indoors and outdoors), bilocation, physical disappearances, changing granite into sugar candy, changing water into another drink, changing water into gasoline, producing objects on demand, changing the color of his gown while wearing it, multiplying food, healing acute and chronic diseases, appearing in visions and dreams, making different fruits appear on any tree hanging from actual stems, controlling the weather, physically transforming into various deities and physically emitting brilliant light.

Hmmm... I don't know HF. These sound pretty impressive to me. Believable? Not really but YMMV. Same for Mohammed's night time ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem.

And I'm not sure I get the point you are making. The more outlandish the miracle claim people are convinced of the more likely it is to be true?

[Huntinfool]

The materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches by Sathya Sai Baba were a source of both fame and controversy

I was talking about these in the first paragraph. Not super impressive and most dismissed it as slight of hand.

Definitely did not see that list when I scanned it the first time. They definitely went all out.

[Asath]

And so, to return to the OP – what, exactly, are your thoughts on the Jesus figure?

Or, to put it more succinctly, and avoid the endless dithering – what can be demonstrated to be true, and what can be demonstrated to be false concerning the life of this man?

The OP did not necessarily ask the Believers to begin the usual litany of excuses – it was pretty specific – “For those of you who do not believe in the God of the bible . . . . ,” it began . . .

Now, unless I am unable to connect a thought to a specific statement, I failed to see the invitation to pile on yet another hundred pages of the Believers doctrines. In fact, I rather think that such a thing was specifically asked to be left at the door.

What was asked was the thoughts and opinions of the NON-Believers.

Just an observation. Asking for respect of one’s own thought often requires at least listening to the question . . .

[Madman]

Originally Posted by TheBishop

Its exactly how one of my heros saw him. Thomas Jefferson, he even wrote his own bible void of all the miracles and the resurrection.

That is great!! Thomas Jefferson is one of my heros also.

Have you studied much about him?

John F. Kennedy once made the statement during a White House dinner attended by Nobel Prize winners:

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. Someone once said that Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman of 32 who could calculate an eclipse, survey an estate, tie an artery, try a cause, break a horse, and dance the minuet."

How exactly do you think Thomas Jefferson saw Christ?

I know what he said about Christ in one of his letters:

“The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus Himself are within the comprehension of a child: but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them, and for obvious reason: that nonsense can never be explained.”

By the way he didn't "write his own Bible" you need to research that statement a little deeper.

In retrospect I believe your hero worship has been placed on a revisionist history of Thomas Jefferson, mine on the historical.

[G20]

I'm not an anti-believer, nor am I a full-believer. I am one who thinks for myself, too much about this kind of stuff to believe anyone at all, but I do enjoy reading about different viewpoints, as food for yet more thought.

What really explains how I see things in about the most succinct way possible is: "If there were not a (Jesus, God...., etc.), would mankind not create one"?

I think we ALL know the answer to that question.

[TheBishop]

Originally Posted by Madman

That is great!! Thomas Jefferson is one of my heros also.

Have you studied much about him?

John F. Kennedy once made the statement during a White House dinner attended by Nobel Prize winners:

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. Someone once said that Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman of 32 who could calculate an eclipse, survey an estate, tie an artery, try a cause, break a horse, and dance the minuet."

How exactly do you think Thomas Jefferson saw Christ?

I know what he said about Christ in one of his letters:

“The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus Himself are within the comprehension of a child: but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them, and for obvious reason: that nonsense can never be explained.”

By the way he didn't "write his own Bible" you need to research that statement a little deeper.

In retrospect I believe your hero worship has been placed on a revisionist history of Thomas Jefferson, mine on the historical.

Auctually he did "Author" his own bible. Writing it was probably the wrong term becuase most of it was a cut and paste job.

Jefferson was a self proclaimed enlightened diest. He did not hold religious organizations in high esteem. He believed that belief (like madison) was personal. Based on all I have read most christians today would not consider him a christian. He believed in apathetic god who did not get invovled with the affairs of men.

In retrospect I think you views on our fore fathers is based on wishful thinking that this country was founded on religous principals, and it was not.