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  #26  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBishop View Post
Its exactly how one of my heros saw him. Thomas Jefferson, he even wrote his own bible void of all the miracles and the resurrection.

Sounds like an alltime number one seller....was it?
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  #27  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
News Flash:
Jesus and followers were not the only ones put to death for rebelling against gov't and religion during that time period.

More at 11......
News flash?

Does that mean you think we're too stupid to know that? And since you must......why don't you tell us who they were? and I'm expecting you to back it up with "scripture/history/facts".....not just some made up fantasy. And if you can't, I'm not gonna go asearchin' for it like you always expect us to do....just back it up with sumpin for a change....otay? What religion etc etc.
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  #28  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
I used to think he had long blonde hair, blue eyes and carried a lamb around with him wherever he went. I prayed to him when I was afraid of the dark. Then I thought he was dark complected and had black hair and brown eyes and that he was a philosopher that people greatly admired. I stopped being afraid of the dark and didn't pray to him anymore. Now I don't think about him much except when I see what belief in him does to people.
Wow.....someone didn't teach you right....no wonder you think like you do about it. No one ever told me anything like that at all.....I guess those same people told you not to get out of the bed because there were bears under the bed and if you got up the bears would drag you under the bed....great teachers....I bet they told you there were monsters in the closet watching you and Jesus would send you to hades if you didn't go to sleep in 15 minutes, too, didn't they?.....that was a lie from satan. I feel sorry for how you were raised....you were sorely misled.
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  #29  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dexrusjak View Post
Jesus existed but was completely human - - no virgin birth, no miracles, no resurrection, etc.
Prove it.
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  #30  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Four View Post
I really never think about it to be honest, if i hear someone referring to Jesus Christ, I immediate think "not real" or so, i generally don't consider the historical figure.

Without researching the historical evidence, i think its a good possibility that it wasn't even one person. Jesus is basically a common first name, similar to Josh, and christ isn't a real last name, its a title.

So with something so ambiguous it could easily be a "john doe" type name given to a collection of people that caused some philosophical trouble for the Jews.

Sort of like if you aren't of Christ you are of the group of the antiChrist? it can only be one or the other. Just wondering.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:34 AM
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Sort of like if you aren't of Christ you are of the group of the antiChrist? it can only be one or the other. Just wondering.
I suppose, I would think of it as a-Christ vs. anti-Christ. But no more am I apart of the anti-Thor, and anti-Shiva, and anti-Muhammad..

I just prefer atheist in general.
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  #32  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:33 AM
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Apocalyptic cult leader?
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  #33  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
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I thought this was not supposed to turn into a debate.

Is that possible in a religion or politics forum ?
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  #34  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:25 PM
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I saw Jesus the other night on "Family Guy." I think he is funny!!!
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  #35  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:27 PM
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Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.
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  #36  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Huntinfool View Post
Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.
Yeah sort of like Mohammed... or some of the modern day cult leaders that manage to convince people they have some special relationship to a deity.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Huntinfool View Post
Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.
Whats also amazing is the motley crew he used to wright the bible and the 12 he used to spread the gospel.....Apart from Paul, who was highly educated, the others would have had a basic education in the Mosaic Law and in their Hebrew faith.Two were fishermen, and another two sons of a fisherman.A hated tax collector,a tent maker who persecuted Christians and was present when Stephen was stoned to death for his faith, and looked on with approval.....Sounds like this Jesus fellow had it "going on"
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:37 AM
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Yeah sort of like Mohammed... or some of the modern day cult leaders that manage to convince people they have some special relationship to a deity.
I should know this, but I don't. Have things on the level of raising people from the dead and sacrificing himself to sell the lie been ascribed to other modern day cult leaders? Mohammed?
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  #39  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:17 PM
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I should know this, but I don't. Have things on the level of raising people from the dead and sacrificing himself to sell the lie been ascribed to other modern day cult leaders? Mohammed?
Miracles have been attributed to both Mohammed and modern cult leaders, much like the case with Jesus. Have any of these claims actually been demonstrated to be true? Not a single one.

Jesus also exhibits some behaviors in the bible that are typical to cult leaders. He instructs followers to sell everything they have and follow him without giving a thought for the morrow.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

That sounds much like something you could hear Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Wayne Bent say.

The question is, is that account of him accurate? Maybe he never even said these things? Maybe he never really claimed to be the messiah and was killed on behalf of the Pharisees for political reasons. But if the accounts are accurate in this respect it strikes me as the personality of a cult leader.
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  #40  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Huntinfool View Post
Sounds like most agree that he existed (though some obviously don't), that he wasn't anything more than a man....and that somehow people chose to write a book about that real person and ascribe to him very fake (and honestly pretty outlandish if they were) miracles and then successfully sold it to the world.

John Grisham ain't got nothin' on Paul.
Ever heard of Sathya Sai Baba?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_...d_clairvoyance
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  #41  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:36 PM
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No....but the "miracles" he was said to have performed (according to that link) ain't NOTHIN' compared to what they ascribed to Jesus.

That was my point. At least this guy's followers had the sense to ascribe something that MIGHT be believable. Jesus' followers just went ahead and went right over the top, didn't they? I guess they figured, "Heck, while we're makin' this crap up....go big or go home, right?"

In any case, JM asked that this not turn into a debate. So I'll leave that discussion for another day.
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Last edited by Huntinfool; 05-02-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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  #42  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:57 PM
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Some of the reported miracles included levitation (both indoors and outdoors), bilocation, physical disappearances, changing granite into sugar candy, changing water into another drink, changing water into gasoline, producing objects on demand, changing the color of his gown while wearing it, multiplying food, healing acute and chronic diseases, appearing in visions and dreams, making different fruits appear on any tree hanging from actual stems, controlling the weather, physically transforming into various deities and physically emitting brilliant light.
Hmmm... I don't know HF. These sound pretty impressive to me. Believable? Not really but YMMV. Same for Mohammed's night time ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem.

And I'm not sure I get the point you are making. The more outlandish the miracle claim people are convinced of the more likely it is to be true?
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  #43  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:03 PM
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The materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches by Sathya Sai Baba were a source of both fame and controversy
I was talking about these in the first paragraph. Not super impressive and most dismissed it as slight of hand.

Definitely did not see that list when I scanned it the first time. They definitely went all out.
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  #44  
Old 05-02-2012, 10:45 PM
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And so, to return to the OP – what, exactly, are your thoughts on the Jesus figure?

Or, to put it more succinctly, and avoid the endless dithering – what can be demonstrated to be true, and what can be demonstrated to be false concerning the life of this man?

The OP did not necessarily ask the Believers to begin the usual litany of excuses – it was pretty specific – “For those of you who do not believe in the God of the bible . . . . ,” it began . . .

Now, unless I am unable to connect a thought to a specific statement, I failed to see the invitation to pile on yet another hundred pages of the Believers doctrines. In fact, I rather think that such a thing was specifically asked to be left at the door.

What was asked was the thoughts and opinions of the NON-Believers.

Just an observation. Asking for respect of one’s own thought often requires at least listening to the question . . .
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  #45  
Old 05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
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Its exactly how one of my heros saw him. Thomas Jefferson, he even wrote his own bible void of all the miracles and the resurrection.
That is great!! Thomas Jefferson is one of my heros also.

Have you studied much about him?

John F. Kennedy once made the statement during a White House dinner attended by Nobel Prize winners:

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. Someone once said that Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman of 32 who could calculate an eclipse, survey an estate, tie an artery, try a cause, break a horse, and dance the minuet."

How exactly do you think Thomas Jefferson saw Christ?

I know what he said about Christ in one of his letters:

“The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus Himself are within the comprehension of a child: but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them, and for obvious reason: that nonsense can never be explained.”

By the way he didn't "write his own Bible" you need to research that statement a little deeper.

In retrospect I believe your hero worship has been placed on a revisionist history of Thomas Jefferson, mine on the historical.
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Last edited by Madman; 05-08-2012 at 10:53 AM. Reason: clarity
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  #46  
Old 05-08-2012, 10:58 AM
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I'm not an anti-believer, nor am I a full-believer. I am one who thinks for myself, too much about this kind of stuff to believe anyone at all, but I do enjoy reading about different viewpoints, as food for yet more thought.

What really explains how I see things in about the most succinct way possible is: "If there were not a (Jesus, God...., etc.), would mankind not create one"?

I think we ALL know the answer to that question.
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  #47  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Madman View Post
That is great!! Thomas Jefferson is one of my heros also.

Have you studied much about him?

John F. Kennedy once made the statement during a White House dinner attended by Nobel Prize winners:

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. Someone once said that Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman of 32 who could calculate an eclipse, survey an estate, tie an artery, try a cause, break a horse, and dance the minuet."

How exactly do you think Thomas Jefferson saw Christ?

I know what he said about Christ in one of his letters:

“The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus Himself are within the comprehension of a child: but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them, and for obvious reason: that nonsense can never be explained.”

By the way he didn't "write his own Bible" you need to research that statement a little deeper.

In retrospect I believe your hero worship has been placed on a revisionist history of Thomas Jefferson, mine on the historical.
Auctually he did "Author" his own bible. Writing it was probably the wrong term becuase most of it was a cut and paste job.

Jefferson was a self proclaimed enlightened diest. He did not hold religious organizations in high esteem. He believed that belief (like madison) was personal. Based on all I have read most christians today would not consider him a christian. He believed in apathetic god who did not get invovled with the affairs of men.

In retrospect I think you views on our fore fathers is based on wishful thinking that this country was founded on religous principals, and it was not.
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