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Old 05-02-2012, 04:47 PM
KMckie786 KMckie786 is offline
 
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Default ASA Tie break using bonus rings???

Am I the only one who doesnt understand why ASA and all other clubs and organizations use the higher number of bonus rings to break a tie?

I know this sounds backwards (this is the way my mind thinks) BUT If "shooter 1" Shoots *** with 20 bonus rings and "shooter 2" shoots *** with 18 bonus rings, why wouldnt "shooter 2" finish in the higher position?

My theory, "shooter 2" either:

1- dropped less points to maintain the same score as shooter 1

2- shot more 14's to get to the same score as shooter 1

Given this, wouldnt shooter 2 (technically speaking) have shot better than shooter 1?

This has happend to me a few times, including this past weekend in AUG. I think everytime it has happend I come out in the lower position because I hit less bonus rings.

Im by no means whining about what happened because I should have shot better so that this wouldnt have been an issue. Just posting up some food for thought is all.

Lets hear what you think!
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:15 PM
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I understand perfectly what your talking about.

Just this past weekend I got knocked out of third place in the Young Adult class because that guy had 16 bonus rings and I only had 15. So I understand why they do it but that doesn't mean I like it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:17 PM
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Yep
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:28 PM
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I have thought like this for a few years now, Your example is right on.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:46 PM
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3-D is supposed to be accolade to Hunting...would you aim in the spot the 14 is on for shooting at an animal?

I say make the 14 inside the 12. That or do away with it entirely.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:35 PM
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this has been discussed for as long as there have been 12 rings. it's definitely not fair, BUT it gives someone a way to come back or get deeper in, lol!! it hurts when you're on the receiving end, but next week, you'll be dishing it out. over the long run, it balances out. even target archery is going that way...they're starting to give a point for a baby x in a vegas round. it forces you to go for the riskier shot in 3d...and if you don't shoot for them, most of the time you won't win.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ScarletArrows View Post
3-D is supposed to be accolade to Hunting...would you aim in the spot the 14 is on for shooting at an animal?

I say make the 14 inside the 12. That or do away with it entirely.
Youre mssing the point slightly. I wasnt trying to bring up the debate over "14's or no 14's". My point is just as i stated above. I think the method of breaking a tie is flawed by using who hit the most bonus rings ... Well its all up there just read it again ;-) haha
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by KMckie786 View Post
Am I the only one who doesnt understand why ASA and all other clubs and organizations use the higher number of bonus rings to break a tie?

I know this sounds backwards (this is the way my mind thinks) BUT If "shooter 1" Shoots *** with 20 bonus rings and "shooter 2" shoots *** with 18 bonus rings, why wouldnt "shooter 2" finish in the higher position?

My theory, "shooter 2" either:

1- dropped less points to maintain the same score as shooter 1

2- shot more 14's to get to the same score as shooter 1

Given this, wouldnt shooter 2 (technically speaking) have shot better than shooter 1?

This has happend to me a few times, including this past weekend in AUG. I think everytime it has happend I come out in the lower position because I hit less bonus rings.

Im by no means whining about what happened because I should have shot better so that this wouldnt have been an issue. Just posting up some food for thought is all.

Lets hear what you think!

I understand and agree. My wife even asked me the same question not too long ago.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:52 PM
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Here is a scenario for you. If a person hits 6 twelves and 3 fourteens and you hit 12 twelves. The scores would be equal but who shot better?

There is no best way. It is what it is.

Just shoot the highest score and win.

Or shoot like me and it doesnt matter!

HAHA!!
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:32 PM
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Chuck in that case i would think you would have to specify how many 12's and 14's individually were hit on the card, and of course, the shooter with higher # of 14's would take higher position.

It just doesnt make since to break a tie with higher bonus rings when in all cases the shooter with the most obviously dropped the most points or didnt shoot at 14's. Also, if it is dead locked if they cant break it with a final arrow they go to the first dropped point.

So the first method rewards dropped points, while if deadlocked they reward the one who didnt drop a point first.

I dont know, it just seems a little messed up if you really break it down and think about how they reward dropped points on one hand but then on the other they dont.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:45 PM
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I've thought the same thing for years.
To me, it seems the twelve should be center like IBO and the 14 a smaller circle inside the twelve. Then use them to break ties.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:48 PM
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I have always thought the same thing. If you shoot a certain score by shooting ten 12s and I shoot the same score by shooting twelve twelves, you shot a cleaner round than I did. I think you should win.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMckie786 View Post
Youre mssing the point slightly. I wasnt trying to bring up the debate over "14's or no 14's". My point is just as i stated above. I think the method of breaking a tie is flawed by using who hit the most bonus rings ... Well its all up there just read it again ;-) haha
Didn't miss the point, I under-explained. If the game itself is flawed...

Guy whom shoots the most 14's still had to judge that yardage and make the shot. His score comes from the fact that those rings are off in spaces on the target that punish you for being off a yard or loosing your point of aim. If you shot 20, 14's then you deserve to win in a tie against a guy whom shot 18, 14's...that is one tiny and evil spot. BUT you should also count 12's in those bonus rings amount too imo...bet ya you see a differance in whom hit the most "bonus" rings then.
If you want it to be a true bonus ring put it inside the 12...then your really gonna see whom was dead on with their aim and the yardage guess.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:52 PM
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Whoever has the most 8's wins
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:50 PM
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I agree with the thinking here but I think the higher 12 count rule goes way back to when other orgs only had a 10 ring. The reasoning in my opinion is to reward the shooter that goes for the 12 since that is the ultimate goal and the signature of the ASA. 12 plus 280 equals 3D.... Remember those stickers?

14 ring.... If Deer walks directly under your stand and you shoot at it as it walks away.... Where would you aim? 14 ring
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:34 AM
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Whoever has the most 8's wins
That would be me!!!!!
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:08 AM
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All of this sounds good and is technically correct but you know the rules before you shoot so most people are aiming at the 12 ring when they are shooting because that is the name of the game. Doing away with the 12 will only make you aim center 10
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:03 AM
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I have always thought the same way. The 14 debate will be over soon, it is my belief that 14's are going away after this season. That by the way is fine. The best shooters will still win. You will find that the extra high scores will come down and some of the really low scores will come up. However the best shooters will still win.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:24 AM
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I dont care if the 14 comes, stays or go's. If you can hit a 12 you can hit a 14 it just depends on who has the balls to shoot at em. The 14 is a riskier shot therefore should be rewarded with more points.

You think people hate 14's now; put them in the center of the 12's like some have mentioned and watch the scores soar! That concept is a little counter intuitive.

Ok lets get back on the tie break topic. I really didnt want this to turn into a "14" debate.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:44 AM
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I agree the 14 should be irrelevant, and I assume the bonus ring concept was started before the 14 was around. I also agree putting the 14 inside the 12 will just increase the "luck" factor.

However, I believe that the logic behind using the bonus ring is still the "risk/reward" factor. For example, someone can shoot 208 by aiming center 10 all day, and catch four lucky 12s, or they can shoot 208 by aiming at the much smaller 12 on every shot, hitting let's say 9 of them, but also falling just short or outside (or getting blocked out by another arrow) for five 8s. Under that logic, using the bonus rings rewards the shooter taking the greater risk, and, theoretically, being more precise on 9 out of 20 shots. Anyone can luck into a few 12s on any given day aiming at center 10(especially when both are in play), but chances are the guy aiming at the 12s, if he is precise in his shooting (and correct guessing on the yardage in the unknown class) will get more 12s than the "lucky guy."

I am not saying that logic is correct, or not without flaws, but that is my assumption of why it was originally chosen as the tiebreaker.

Using the first dropped point is not without potential problems either. For our local shoots, most everyone starts on target 1, but sometimes there is a backup and you skip the first few, and like has occurrred at ASAs many times, I have had the scorekeepers start marking the cards at Target 1, even though we were starting on Target 7, 12, 18, whatever. So, for example if your scorekeeper did that, and you hit an 8 on your first target (assume #7) for whatever reason (extra long, you shot last and got bumped out, etc.), but got a 12 or 14 on the real #1, while your opponant's scorekeeper correctly put scores in the right boxes, and he got a 10 on #1, your opponent ends up winning the tie-break on dropped arrow. I had a guy in my group at one of the ASA's last year complaining that this had happened to him.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:10 PM
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do like soul hunters has or had couple of their targets, the 14 ring was under the 8 line, 6 oclock low from the 10 ring, if you go for it you get a 14 or pin wheel 5, I thought that was very sporting, true heart shot or shoot for the center 10... I also think the question was well put,, 200 with no bonus rings, 200 with 4 bonus rings, who shot better, for me the guy with no bonus rings he was in the middle all day, the other guy shot 4 8's and had to make up for wayward shots,, just my 2 cents..
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:22 PM
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Not sayin anything about the top scoring rings but someone told me that the shooter with the most bonus rings wins because they went for them.. and got more than the other shooter that played safer and did not go for then as much...
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:29 PM
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I always thought 3-D shots were supposed to mimic a hunting shot. If so, theres no good shot where the 14 is now. Stands to reason if you want to reward someone for making a perfect shot, put it where it belongs or do away with it. Then useing the 12 to break ties would make more sense, and 1st to drop a point is 2nd. You'll have to keep the starting point on your card straight though.
I guess the reasoning behind the 12's position is to mimic holding low on an alert string jumper ?
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:30 PM
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200 with no bonus rings, 200 with 4 bonus rings, who shot better, for me the guy with no bonus rings he was in the middle all day, the other guy shot 4 8's and had to make up for wayward shots,, just my 2 cents..
Isn't it possible though, that the guy shooting 200 with no bonus rings actually wasn't in the middle all day - just catching the 10 line on top, each side, and bottom, just not lucky enough to catch a 12, but the guy shooting 200 with 4 twelves might have made the four 8s by just missing the 12 by 1/8" each time ? In that case, the second shooter only missed his point of aim by a TOTAL of 1/2" for all shots, whereas the first shooter may have sprayed the 10s all over the 5" - 8" (and larger) 10 ring...

And by the way, I am more likely to be the first shooter myself



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Not sayin anything about the top scoring rings but someone told me that the shooter with the most bonus rings wins because they went for them.. and got more than the other shooter that played safer and did not go for then as much...

Exactly..... right or wrong, that is the logic (I think)
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:40 PM
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I'm with Kenny, I could care less if they are in play or out of play. My comment was not meant to start a 14 discussion but was just part of my answer. I shoot my best scores with out shooting at them anyway.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMckie786 View Post
Am I the only one who doesnt understand why ASA and all other clubs and organizations use the higher number of bonus rings to break a tie ?

Lets hear what you think!


Sorry, they were in the same can of worms.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:57 PM
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I have been saying that for years, they just like to penalize good shooters! Don't get me wrong the 12 ring saved 3-Ds back when it was added.
Like I have said the shooter with the most 10 rings should be the winner!! After all the 12 ring is in the 10 ring!!!
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:16 PM
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like i said before, when you're forced to shoot at them to win, it adds the excitement factor; and if you don't shoot 'em, most of the time,you're not going to win. they also add comeback-ability!!
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:55 AM
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I have always known why they do it. That doesn't mean I like it though.

But the first shoot I win with more bonus rings, my mindset will change a lot. I'm sure of it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:45 PM
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In my opinion the bonus rings add strategy to the game. Thats why I dont care for IBO. Everybody is shooting for the same spot on every target (center 10). That takes alot of the fun out of it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p&y finally View Post
In my opinion the bonus rings add strategy to the game. Thats why I dont care for IBO. Everybody is shooting for the same spot on every target (center 10). That takes alot of the fun out of it.
I agree 100%. I just wish they could figure out a way to break a tie that actually benefits the better shooter.
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:04 AM
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MacKie.. I have often wondered the same thing...
The Archer with the least amount of 12's should indeed be the winner. Simply because he/she shot with the fewest errors.
In the case of the 14's The Archer that hit the most 14's should be the winner. Simply He/she took the most risk.
On Tie Breakers.. The Archer that Hit the first 8 or or 5 should be second to the the Archer that did not.
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:29 AM
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Wow, were's the boat?
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:38 PM
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I like tge way it is. It means that the archer who hit more bonus ringd had to work harder to get his points. It seems it wouldbt be fair to give the win to the shooter who didnt make as many good shot or whot shot safe and hit tens give it to the guy who deserves it and went for the bonus rings and hit them.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:08 PM
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This thread still alive ? I have thought about it some more, and it seems to me that the 12 is for 3D the same as the X for indoor. The assumption is that everyone is shooting for the X, or for 3D, the 12. You can shoot a clean 300 with only 47 Xs and win over someone with 299 and 59 Xs - who appears to be the better shooter in that case?
Not a perfect system either... maybe we should start measuring how far from the 12 each 10, 8 or 5 is ??
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