Red wolves

[redneck_billcollector]

This subject has been discussed a few times on this board but there are some questions that have been left unasked and therefor unanswered. I have trapped coyotes out west and in SOWEGA and I am here to tell you, a number of the coyotes I have harvested in SOWEGA ain't the varmits from out west. We all know that in colder climates, one of the ways mammals adapt is to grow bigger, well, SOWEGA ain't a colder climate that out west where I have caught coyotes, yet they are bigger here. In montana and the northern rockies, the yotes are bigger than the south texas variaty, yet here they can be bigger than the northern rocky yotes.

Now my question for anyone, but especially for any wildlife biologist on this board. Has there been any genetic studies on the larger coyotes from SOWEGA and other areas of the south east (or east in general) to see what the differences are with the seemingly smaller in stature western parent population?

I have also read in numerous scientific papers that the red wolf is nothing more than a cross between gray wolves and coyotes that occurred as the last ice age ended and coyotes expanded their range. The papers (at least a good number of them) point out that interbreeding between the two is not uncommon when one of the populations is stressed (almost always the gray wolf). My understanding of why red wolf reintroduction has not been widely attempted is because they will interbreed with any local coyote populations rendering the attempt DOA. The next time I catch a big yote (I use the yakee name for big coyotes, "brush wolf") I might see if I can get some agency to do some genetic tests, thing is though, I don't want to be charged with violation of the US Endangered Species Act.

[Quercus Alba]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

This subject has been discussed a few times on this board but there are some questions that have been left unasked and therefor unanswered. I have trapped coyotes out west and in SOWEGA and I am here to tell you, a number of the coyotes I have harvested in SOWEGA ain't the varmits from out west. We all know that in colder climates, one of the ways mammals adapt is to grow bigger, well, SOWEGA ain't a colder climate that out west where I have caught coyotes, yet they are bigger here. In monatana and the northern rockies, the yotes are bigger than the south texas variaty, yet here they can be bigger than the northern rocky yotes.

Now my question for anyone, but especially for any wildlife biologist on this board. Has there been any genetic studies on the larger coyotes from SOWEGA and other areas of the south east (or east in general) to see what the differences are with the seemingly smaller in stature western parent population?

I have also read in numerous scientific papers that the red wolf is nothing more than a cross between gray wolves and coyotes that occurred as the last ice age ended and coyotes expanded their range. The papers (at least a good number of them) point out that interbreeding between the two is not uncommon when one of the populations is stressed (almost always the gray wolf). My understanding of why red wolf reintroduction has not been widely attempted is because they will interbreed with any local coyote populations rendering the attempt DOA. The next time I catch a big yote (I use the yakee name for big coyotes, "brush wolf") I might see if I can get some agency to do some genetic tests, thing is though, I don't want to be charged with violation of the US Endangered Species Act.

I cannot point you to or reference any specific studies, but what you are thinking is most likely correct. As coyotes expanded east, they most certainly bred with the already dwindling red wolf population. When they began the the red-wolf program they went to a place near the Singer Tract in Lousiana I do believe. The same place where James Tanner studied Ivory Bills. Out of the huge number of coyotes that they trapped they only selected a handful for the breeding programs based on mostly morphological characteristics. The rest were determined to be coyotes or a mix there of.

Another very interesting point that I never hear mentioned by others is that there seems to be more uniquely colored coyotes in the southeast. I believe it was Mark Catesby that originally described the red wolf species, and named them Canis nigra which was later changed. He did so because many that he encountered were of this black coloration and this may be why you see so many coyotes like this today.

Also, you are correct about the difficulties with the red wolf re-introduction. I worked for a little while in the region at Pocosin Lakes NWR. The red wolf team at Alligator River NWR down the road tried very hard to deal with the coyote problem.

Hope this might help or be of interest. I'm a certified associate wildlife biologist who has always been interested in this topic. You may also consider contacting the Red Wolf Coalition with additional questions. The lady that runs it would love to talk with you I would think.

Hutch Collins

[Jeff Raines]

Interesting and educational.....good thread

[kayaker]

There are supposedly 19 subspecies of coyotes and 16 of them live in the U.S.

[redneck_billcollector]

Thanks for the response Mr. Collins, I have talked to some of the people with the Red Wolf Coallition before, they were very helpful in answering some of my questions. Unfortunately they were not able to answer my questions about genetics at the time, of course that was years ago before genetic studies were as "easy" and common as they are now. I figured if some had been done I would have stumbled across the studies in those suits trying to keep red wolves from being listed.

Another interesting trait I have noticed at times, at least in the lower flint river drainage, is that our "brush wolves" will form packs which is not a common trait for yotes out west. I have encountered packs before especially camping in early winter. I have also caught numerous large brush wolves in one night in relatively small areas indicating they were in a pack situtation (especially around dead cattle, the reason I think this is because yotes are territorial just like other canines). I have always wondered if there wasn't residual populations of red wolves on some of the larger quail plantations and river swamps in South Ga. and once the deer started coming back in the 70's those residual populations started to respond. The late 70s is about the time that the yote population started making its appearance known down here, and some of those yotes were huge (the fur market was high back then and I spent alot of time trapping and catching them).

If I were a young man and starting my life now, I think it would be an interesting thesis to explore if I was a student in a grad program in wildlife management/biology. If there are any students out there or professors on this board with an intrest in this subject, please pursue it, I would love to see the data.

[redneck_billcollector]

Kayaker, I have read about the numerous subtypes of yotes before and I realize they are out there. But, there are no historic populations of coyotes in the east, they are a new occurance (at least down here) which happened in my life time. It was big news when the first ones were killed in Terrell and Lee Counties back in the 70s. There was speculation that fox hunters in Doolly county released some because of a low population of fox to run with their hounds (I always thought that was funny cause we were catching tons of fox). I caught my first yote in Worth Co. along the flint river and it was a monster, I did not know what to think, I kept the pelt for years, I lost it during one of my moves after a divorce. It looked more like a small wolf pelt than a yote pelt. I have also noticed that either you caught smaller yotes or larger yotes on various properties, which would seem to indicate that if they were wolfs they were keeping the yotes away. I have read that if there is a healthy pack of red wolves they will do like the gray wolves and keep yotes out of their pack's range.

[RoosterTodd]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

Thanks for the response Mr. Collins, I have talked to some of the people with the Red Wolf Coallition before, they were very helpful in answering some of my questions. Unfortunately they were not able to answer my questions about genetics at the time, of course that was years ago before genetic studies were as "easy" and common as they are now. I figured if some had been done I would have stumbled across the studies in those suits trying to keep red wolves from being listed.

Another interesting trait I have noticed at times, at least in the lower flint river drainage, is that our "brush wolves" will form packs which is not a common trait for yotes out west. I have encountered packs before especially camping in early winter. I have also caught numerous large brush wolves in one night in relatively small areas indicating they were in a pack situtation (especially around dead cattle, the reason I think this is because yotes are territorial just like other canines). I have always wondered if there wasn't residual populations of red wolves on some of the larger quail plantations and river swamps in South Ga. and once the deer started coming back in the 70's those residual populations started to respond. The late 70s is about the time that the yote population started making its appearance known down here, and some of those yotes were huge (the fur market was high back then and I spent alot of time trapping and catching them).

If I were a young man and starting my life now, I think it would be an interesting thesis to explore if I was a student in a grad program in wildlife management/biology. If there are any students out there or professors on this board with an intrest in this subject, please pursue it, I would love to see the data.

That's a thought provoking theory. I wonder if dna could verify it? It would certainly explain a lot.

[redneck_billcollector]

Originally Posted by RoosterTodd

That's a thought provoking theory. I wonder if dna could verify it? It would certainly explain a lot.

Over half of the red wolf population is in captivity so DNA would be easy to obtain. Heck they were able to get a DNA print on the panther killed in GA and determine where it was born and who its parents were. Our population of yotes is a relatively new population so they could tell alot about it with an extensive DNA study. The red wolf input would be less than 100 years old(east texas contact with yotes and wolves).

As had been said before, Chehaw Park in Albany has a pair of red wolves, I encourage anyone interested in this issue to go check them out, I never really thought about this until I saw them and realized I have caught many a yote that you could not distinguish from those two in size, color and body shape. Others who have trapped around here say the same thing.

[RoosterTodd]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

Over half of the red wolf population is in captivity so DNA would be easy to obtain. Heck they were able to get a DNA print on the panther killed in GA and determine where it was born and who its parents were. Our population of yotes is a relatively new population so they could tell alot about it with an extensive DNA study. The red wolf input would be less than 100 years old(east texas contact with yotes and wolves).

As had been said before, Chehaw Park in Albany has a pair of red wolves, I encourage anyone interested in this issue to go check them out, I never really thought about this until I saw them and realized I have caught many a yote that you could not distinguish from those two in size, color and body shape. Others who have trapped around here say the same thing.

It's funny you say that because I thought that same thing when I first saw them. Man, those are some big coyotes! Wait, they're red wolves?

[NCHillbilly]

I read a study a few years ago that someone did and determined that most eastern coyotes have a degree of wolf DNA. They are definitely different from the western yotes-much, much, bigger, and more pack-oriented. There are some huge ones around here. Then again, we had a red wolf reintroduction in the Smokies several years ago. They supposedly rounded them all back up and took them away, but when you see 50-60 pound yotes that howl in deep bass voices, it makes you wonder.

[chehawknapper]

Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.

[redneck_billcollector]

Originally Posted by chehawknapper

Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.

We better be careful with all this talk Ben, 'fore ya know it some tree huggin' wolf lover will make it illegal to trap yotes in south Ga. I have had the same thought as you, especially about 10 years ago when I got a black one that was HUGE just north of Baconton on the river. It looked for all the world like some of the smaller wolves I saw when I lived up near King's Mountain (outside of Chickaloon) in Alaska.

I hope what we are saying is true, just because it makes this area that much more wilder to me and I get to say "I have been a wolf trapper in my time." That sounds a little bit more romantic than saying I was a varmit trapper......Oh yeah, I have never seen or heard of a black yote during all my western travels, I have seen some lighter than usual ones out west though.

Ben, didn't you always want a Phd. in wildlife biology? This would be a good thesis for you to pursue........Just think, you could be famous if you established a link between the two.

[redneck_billcollector]

Just looked at some of the photos of black yotes trapped this year over on the trapping board, I really think you are right Ben.

[RoosterTodd]

Originally Posted by chehawknapper

Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

Just looked at some of the photos of black yotes trapped this year over on the trapping board, I really think you are right Ben.

That's makes perfect sense. Where else could a gene for that particular color come from?

[Resica]

Originally Posted by RoosterTodd

That's makes perfect sense. Where else could a gene for that particular color come from?

Where did the gene come from that was in the red wolves?

[redneck_billcollector]

Bartram noted plenty of black colored red wolves, black coloration was not that uncommon in red wolves...sounds funny, huh? One of the earlier scientific names for red wolves alluded to black coloration, at least I remember reading that somewhere, nigra or something along that line.
Apparently red wolves are not that different from their bigger cousins, the gray wolf, which as we all know it is not uncommon for them to be black.

[redneck_billcollector]

On Nat Geo Wild tonight there was a show about Taylor Mitchell, a 19 yo female killed by coyotes last year in Nova Scotia. They got the three that killed her, they were healthy and apparently were not afraid of people. DNA showed they were wolf / coyote hybrids. Apparently the "eastern coyote" is a wolf, coyote cross and has evolved over the last 100 (or fewer) years and is a seperate species from the western coyote (at least according to the show). They said eastern coyotes have broader skulls, broader snouts, larger bodies, hunt in packs to take larger game and can vary in coloration like the wolf side of their family tree. I reckon the term brush wolf is not an improper moniker for them.

What I have read about red wolves is basically they are the same thing, but it happened around 10,000 years ago. It looks like they are re-evolving. How interesting that this conversation has been going on the past couple of days and it was on TV tonight.

[redneck_billcollector]

Here is an interesting article on the genotype for red wolves, at least in 1995 there was no genetic evidence of a red wolf distinct genotype, they even took samples from the 6 red wolf specimens at the Smithsonian.
http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS3/2conserv.htm
If I am reading this correctly the coyotes we have all come to know and love are dang near as much red wolf as the red wolves of times gone past.

[fishfryer]

Redneck Billcollector,You certainly write interesting threads. With your background and experience,it is a pleasure to read your thoughts. You express an idea,cite personal experiences that relate to it, and then give us some scientific data to chew on also. You are urging others to dig deeper into your subject,I personally wish you would. I further, hope to hear more on the subject, from you. My wife and I saw a really big coyote yesterday crossing a rural road here. This coyote/coydog made both of us think of German Shepherd ancestory. I'm fairly sure it was over 40 lbs.. As you have said, I never saw a coyote until the very early 1970s,now they are fairly common here. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[j_seph]

interesting

[redneck_billcollector]

interesting photo I took this past Saturday, curious as to yalls take on the make-up of this canine.


http://s1207.photobucket.com/albums/...rent%3D006.jpg

[Nicodemus]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

interesting photo I took this past Saturday, curious as to yalls take on the make-up of this canine.


http://s1207.photobucket.com/albums/...rent%3D006.jpg

Nice shot, Jay. Enjoyed our talk the other mornin`.


Here`s a big one from Worth County I got in the early 80s.

[redneck_billcollector]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus

Nice shot, Jay. Enjoyed our talk the other mornin`.


Here`s a big one from Worth County I got in the early 80s.

Enjoyed it too Nic, that there is one big.....brush wolf. You recall what he weighed?

[Nicodemus]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

Enjoyed it too Nic, that there is one big.....brush wolf. You recall what he weighed?

I believe he was in excess of 50 pounds. I got him down by Wiregrass.

[redneck_billcollector]

I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram. Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it. Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you? The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.

[Nicodemus]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram. Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it. Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you? The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.

I have wondered that myself, because I don`t have a clue as to what that fruit might be. Ben might can shed some light on it for us.

[Gary Mercer]

Always carried a buckeye. Old timer told me it would bring in deer.
Who knows, but I still have that thing.
Gary

[JWT]

Pretty interesting ,I got this one this yr running with two others!!

[redneck_billcollector]

That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT. You don't happen to recall its weight do you?

[JWT]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT. You don't happen to recall its weight do you?

I'm guessing 35 to 40 lbs,one of the others with it was a lot bigger, but it was regular phase!

[Ohoopee Tusker]

This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.

[redneck_billcollector]

Originally Posted by Ohoopee Tusker

This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.

I have noticed "pack" behavior for years. I too have seen packs after grown deer and shot the biggest one I have ever seen out of a pack running deer on my property down in Mitchell County.

[JWT]

Just got back from a hunt in eastern,NC & I seen 2 of the biggest yotes ever!! They were huge! I was close to the refuge where the red wolves are at!! I was with 3 wildlife biologist in the truck& they said it was a cross breed!! IDK!!

[SmokyMtnSmoke]

Very interesting read here guys. Thanks for sharing your observations. It's good to know and be able to see back through time, so to speak, and look at a an eastern "brush wolf" and let common sense rule in that these are hybrid "hold overs" that have made it through to today, regardless if science can prove it. Very cool indeed.

[chehawknapper]

Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector

I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram. Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it. Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you? The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.

Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.

[redneck_billcollector]

Originally Posted by chehawknapper

Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.

How do they taste, or are they something you would rather not eat?

[chehawknapper]

Honestly, never tried them. Will have to check out the possibilities this year. I am not sure that they are considered edible. They are referred as wild or Indian olive because of the egg or olive shaped fruit.

[chehawknapper]

So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.

[DEERFU]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...imals-science/
This article says the cross has been confirmed through DNA but it wasn't red wolves in the mix it was Great Lakes wolves. It also says the have been reported as far away as Alaska

[chehawknapper]

Jay, I can tell you precisely where you took that photo! By the way, Chehaw's red wolves have pups right now.

[NG ALUM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

The link above is a very interesting read! Now Im starting to think I may have something more similar to mixbreed "brushwolves" than coyotes. I don't know where the idea that coyotes are solitaire creatures came from but they definately are not at my farm. I guarantee you that I could get a couple different packs of 5-10 howling tonight and we often see them running through the woods 3-5 at the time. I have only ever seen just one on 2 occasions. Also they do hit those low base notes when they get to howling and you'd swear there was a wolf in there somewhere. I shot a big male a couple weeks back that topped out at 60lbs!

The article I provided the link to says that red wolves are 76-80% coyote and 24-20% grey wolf. IF thats the case there could be so much resemblance you don't know what you've got! Check it out!

[waddler]

Originally Posted by chehawknapper

So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?...thus+americana

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Search_Use.aspx?glossary=Fruit