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  #26  
Old 01-09-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector View Post
I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram. Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it. Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you? The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.


I have wondered that myself, because I don`t have a clue as to what that fruit might be. Ben might can shed some light on it for us.
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  #27  
Old 01-09-2012, 08:25 PM
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Always carried a buckeye. Old timer told me it would bring in deer.
Who knows, but I still have that thing.
Gary
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2012, 07:45 AM
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Pretty interesting ,I got this one this yr running with two others!!
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  #29  
Old 01-12-2012, 09:30 AM
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That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT. You don't happen to recall its weight do you?
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector View Post
That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT. You don't happen to recall its weight do you?
I'm guessing 35 to 40 lbs,one of the others with it was a lot bigger, but it was regular phase!
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  #31  
Old 01-12-2012, 08:49 PM
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This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.
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  #32  
Old 01-20-2012, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohoopee Tusker View Post
This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.
I have noticed "pack" behavior for years. I too have seen packs after grown deer and shot the biggest one I have ever seen out of a pack running deer on my property down in Mitchell County.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2012, 03:28 PM
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Just got back from a hunt in eastern,NC & I seen 2 of the biggest yotes ever!! They were huge! I was close to the refuge where the red wolves are at!! I was with 3 wildlife biologist in the truck& they said it was a cross breed!! IDK!!
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2012, 06:50 PM
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Very interesting read here guys. Thanks for sharing your observations. It's good to know and be able to see back through time, so to speak, and look at a an eastern "brush wolf" and let common sense rule in that these are hybrid "hold overs" that have made it through to today, regardless if science can prove it. Very cool indeed.
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  #35  
Old 01-22-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector View Post
I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram. Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it. Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you? The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.
Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.
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  #36  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:46 PM
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Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.
How do they taste, or are they something you would rather not eat?
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  #37  
Old 01-22-2012, 04:52 PM
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Honestly, never tried them. Will have to check out the possibilities this year. I am not sure that they are considered edible. They are referred as wild or Indian olive because of the egg or olive shaped fruit.
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  #38  
Old 01-25-2012, 08:29 PM
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So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2012, 06:53 AM
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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...imals-science/
This article says the cross has been confirmed through DNA but it wasn't red wolves in the mix it was Great Lakes wolves. It also says the have been reported as far away as Alaska
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  #40  
Old 05-05-2012, 07:59 AM
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Jay, I can tell you precisely where you took that photo! By the way, Chehaw's red wolves have pups right now.
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  #41  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:37 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

The link above is a very interesting read! Now Im starting to think I may have something more similar to mixbreed "brushwolves" than coyotes. I don't know where the idea that coyotes are solitaire creatures came from but they definately are not at my farm. I guarantee you that I could get a couple different packs of 5-10 howling tonight and we often see them running through the woods 3-5 at the time. I have only ever seen just one on 2 occasions. Also they do hit those low base notes when they get to howling and you'd swear there was a wolf in there somewhere. I shot a big male a couple weeks back that topped out at 60lbs!

The article I provided the link to says that red wolves are 76-80% coyote and 24-20% grey wolf. IF thats the case there could be so much resemblance you don't know what you've got! Check it out!
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  #42  
Old 05-19-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chehawknapper View Post
So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.
http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?...thus+americana

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Search_Use.aspx?glossary=Fruit
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2013, 06:03 PM
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With all this great weather in SOWEGA lately I have been spending time on the computer....for those who are interested google Canis Lupus niger floridanus.....it is the extinct black florida wolf...the last of which held out until the 20th century in south GA. Just a thought here, they ain't extinct. Oh yeah, they are one of three sub groupings of red wolves. At one time they were thought to be some strange southeastern type of coyote, but that theory was debunked (in the 40s)
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:15 PM
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I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs. There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.

I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago. The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive. All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.
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  #45  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:32 AM
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According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.
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  #46  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chehawknapper View Post
According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.


Yep. The evidence is all around us.
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  #47  
Old 08-18-2013, 11:04 AM
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I agree. And the DNA studies show wolf DNA, not dog DNA, in our eastern "coyotes." These critters commonly get over 50 pounds here, and come in a variety of wolf colors, and pack hunt. The last "officially documented" gray wolf kill in my county was in the 1920's, but most of the old-timers around here when I was growing up swore that there were still a few wolves lurking back in the mountains.
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  #48  
Old 08-18-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by The Longhunter View Post
I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs. There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.

I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago. The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive. All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.
U of FLA genetic studies show that the coy-dog hype is nothing more than a myth. Recent studies show little or no domestic dog dna but show varying amount of wolf dna. The "black coyote" you shot was more canis lupus niger floridanus than dog...I would bet you just about anything it had no dog dna. Check out Bartram's description of the florida black wolf from the late 18th century....black with females having a white chest spot and the size of a small wolf....I know the black "yotes" I have harvested meet the size and color described by W. Bartram. It should further be noted that not only Bartram wrote of these black wolves of the southeast...Aldo Leopold did too along with many more early American naturalist.

If, in fact there were any genetic studies done by UGA to back up what you are saying, please post a link, because every genetic study I have seen counters what you said UGA claims. I have yet to see a genetic study supporting the myth of the coy-dog.

Why is it that is us south Georgians like me, Ben and Nic who really believe this...it should noted that I do know us three have been harvesting these brush wolves since they started showing up in the mid/late 70s.
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  #49  
Old 08-18-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by chehawknapper View Post
According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.
I often wonder....why did they start showing up in numbers in the SOWEGA plantation belt and flint river drainage before they did west of us? Bet you a nickle to a dollar that there were some florida wolves hanging out in the area and when the deer and hog population took off...about the time the brush wolves showed up...I would also point out that Ben, Nic and I have a few certified red wolves to look at on a regular basis here at chehaw and I know that I have been pushing this since I laid eyes on them...they look identical in size and shape along with color at times to most of the ones I started catching in traps back in the 70s. I believe Ben felt (don't know though) the same once he laid eyes on them.
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  #50  
Old 08-18-2013, 07:42 PM
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Be hard to convince me this is a coyote. This one is from Lower Worth County, right across the dirt road from Wiregrass. Back in the 80s.

Another thing I wonder is if brush wolves are so eager to breed with dogs, why is there no proof that they bred or breed with Carolina dogs or any of the pariah dogs the Indians in this part of the country had? They didn`t.
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