Heaven and Free Will

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by stringmusic

Truth is exclusive, everybody can't be right.

That is true

Originally Posted by stringmusic

Faith and acceptance of Christ are one in the same.

So before JC was on the earth, the people that died........never mind.

[stringmusic]

Originally Posted by bullethead

After eons and eons of time hovering in a place that is beyond human comprehension, God finally decided that

You seem to know what God is thinking yourself.

he was lonely and NEEDED to create a creature that will love and worship him.

Where did you get this little tidbit?

God decided that the creature will have free will and does not have to worship him,

You got that part right.....

but secretly at the end of that creatures life if it so chose not to worship God(and now his son too) that creature will burn for all eternity for carrying out God's will??????????????

....this part, not so much. It is not a secret that people who choose not to spend eternity with God, don't have too.

Awesome line of thought.

It is if it's correct.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by stringmusic

You seem to know what God is thinking yourself.

Nope, just coming to my own conclusions from the info given.

Originally Posted by stringmusic

Where did you get this little tidbit?

God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will.
Tailor made....

Originally Posted by stringmusic

You got that part right.....

See I'm following closely so i do understand....

Originally Posted by stringmusic

....this part, not so much. It is not a secret that people who choose not to spend eternity with God, don't have too.

It IS a secret to every person that has never ever heard of God. It is only the people that heard and chose(with their given free will) to go another route that will not only NOT go to Heaven, but be tormented for all of eternity for their choice. It is not like they get to go to a decent vacation spot with a community pool, not a private one....they burn forever. You sugar coat it.

Originally Posted by stringmusic

It is if it's correct.

Odds are it is not correct.

[atlashunter]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

OK. One more time. There is no sin in heaven. Heaven is a holy place. There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do. We will only want to worship God and be in his glory. When you just ate a 22oz steak, 5 lobster tails, 29 baked potatos, 16 salads and drank 3 gallons of water, do want to eat or drink any thing? Not likely. You are full and have your desires to eat and drink met to the fullest. You probably couldnt eat another bite. I know you could force yourself to try but you wont want to. In heaven you wont have your desires to sin met and be full from it but you just will not want to do it because you cant simply because sin does not exist in heaven. I guess it is hard to put into words because we can sin here on earth and we all do and it is so easy to do. It is also hard to imagine something that we know so well on earth will just not exist in heaven but it wont and I am so happy that I wont have to deal with it any more in heaven. If you are saved you will go to heaven. If you are worried about getting thrown out of heaven for sinning in heaven, stop. You wont. I am sorry that I am not smart enough to explain it better. Please just accept that there is no sin in heaven and when you get there you can ask God.

I've already addressed your points here. Instead of simply repeating yourself try responding to what I've said. Let's start with a definition of sin and go from there.

[BrettJ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettJ
God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.

Like in Heaven?
No not like in Heaven. You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth. If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry, it wont matter any way. You want be in Heaven. You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettJ
God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.

Like in Heaven?
No not like in Heaven. You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth. If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry, it wont matter any way. You want be in Heaven. You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.

Impressive.

[ambush80]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

Like in Heaven?

No not like in Heaven. You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth. If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry, it wont matter any way. You want be in Heaven. You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.

Can you just take one freaking day off from loving him, like a personal day? How about a half day? One day to just "do you"? Maybe go to the dog track or have a scotch?

[Asath]

"There is no sin in heaven. Heaven is a holy place. There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do."

BUT -- "You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth."

I take it you've BEEN to Heaven, since this is a pretty exacting description, but if you'll pardon me, it seems a bit oppressive.

If you HAVE free will, when you get there, and the whole time you are there, in fact, but God has removed anything and everything from the place (presumably including impure thoughts) that He will not want you to do (like think, for example), then what exactly is one FREE to do?

Sounds more like a prison than a utopia. Thank goodness you were paroled, and are back here to tell us about the details of how it works. We thank you immensely for the heads-up.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

I can't.



You are the only person I know, that can read my comments, and draw that conclusion.

Who else is posting to ya about what you wrote?

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettJ
God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.

Like in Heaven?
No not like in Heaven. You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth. If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry, it wont matter any way. You want be in Heaven. You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.

Brett, you're wasting your time, just like the original poster, nobody really cares what we think, they just bait us so they can smack us upside the head with how stupid we are.

We will have free will in heaven. We won't be robots. We will enjoy everything about life. We will spend most of forever on a perfect earth. We will have all the pros in life and none of the cons. We will be able to hunt, and fish and no one gets killed accidentally, nothing will be polluted. I could say more of what I personally think heaven would be like, as the op asked, but that would be a waste of time....someone is here with a stick to

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by ambush80

Can you just take one freaking day off from loving him, like a personal day? How about a half day? One day to just "do you"? Maybe go to the dog track or have a scotch?

I'll have every day off

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

God does not need you to love him.Who said he did? I didn't. Does He want you to love Him and His Son? God is self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent. He needs nothing. He does not need you.You're kiddin'??? really??? i thought He needed me to exist........who said He did? Why would anyone think that God needs them, I never ever thought God needed me, did you? Not even when I was 4 yrs old, my first recall of God, I didn't think He needed me, I've never heard of anyone who thinks God needs them....what's your point??? Just something to crush someones importance to God? God loves us, we are important to Him, He created us, He loves us, He gave His son for us, He loves us, why put someone down by saying God doesn't need you....is that really necessary. Do you go around telling all the little children in church that 'guess what??? God doesn't need you'....just to belittle them? I think that's pretty much a given, but do you have to make a big issue out of it? God is love, ya know. Let's concentrate on that instead of telling everyone how useless they are to God. Why don't you go around preaching the gospel, the GOOD NEWS, instead of depressing everyone to death about the negatitive stuff that you aren't even willing to testify or witness to???

If it is unfair for God to give mercy to some men, but not all men, would it not be equally unfair for God to give mercy to fallen men if he did not also give mercy to the fallen angels?Well I don't know, I don't think like God, do you? You seem to know exactly what God does and why, why don't you tell me.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Who said he did? I didn't.

And I will take you at your word. Perhaps I read more into your comment than was there.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Why don't you go around preaching the gospel, the GOOD NEWS, instead of depressing everyone to death about the negatitive stuff that you aren't even willing to testify or witness to???

The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise.

I thought you said in the freewill thread that you wanted to keep your testimony about your salvation private. If I missed it somewhere I'd love to hear it or you could guide me there.

[StriperAddict]

Originally Posted by bullethead

I know it is inconceivable to think that others HAVE read the book, MANY MANY MANY times over and have come to different conclusions than you, but yes, it happens.

Then why did the BrentJ 'heaven' post get ridiculed? His quotes came from bible

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by StriperAddict

Then why did the BrentJ 'heaven' post get ridiculed? His quotes came from bible

Because not everyone that reads the bible or those quotes believes they are worth any more than the ink it took to put them in the book.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

I thought you said in the freewill thread that you wanted to keep your testimony about your salvation private. If I missed it somewhere I'd love to hear it or you could guide me there.

I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.

[ambush80]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.

Ain't that sumthin?

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.

Well then we just have to guess at what you're getting at, right? That was my point when you said 'The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise'....we've discussed over and over in the elect thread, you haven't...you just throw these things out like God doesn't need you, therefore that = that He chose you even though He didn't need you....He chose you anyway...makes no sense to me at all. Just ways to make little importance of us.....Lord help Me Jesus, You died for Me, yet I am not important to you. That sort of belittles God's gift to us doesn't it?

I think you have it backards.....I seek God because I need God, and you're right He doesn't need me, why would He seek me? It cannot be both ways ya know. He chose you, because He needs you, personally? or what? or did He offer everyone a gift or just a special few that He needed. You could make my head spin right off in confusion of where you're coming from.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Because not everyone that reads the bible or those quotes believes they are worth any more than the ink it took to put them in the book.

Well then who the heck is the original poster asking if not those who believe?

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Well then who the heck is the original poster asking if not those who believe?

Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.

[JB0704]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.

Oh, we all think the rest are heretics. It kind-of goes with what we are discussing. You should see the whipping I am taking up in the hunting forum over deer limits I think I have made 2 mods, an admin, and a game biologist quite upset with me....unintentionally, for sure

That being said, I appreciate your honesty and convictions of your beliefs: extremely consistent even when uncomfortable, though I disagree with some of them.

[StriperAddict]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.

No, Just how to arrive. "Religion" looks the other way when a true "death to self" by the power of Another is concerned. Which is why the cross trips up many a "religion" and most nay-sayers.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Well then we just have to guess at what you're getting at, right?

I hope not. I try to discuss these things in a way as to leave no guessing as to where I stand.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

we've discussed over and over in the elect thread, you haven't

That is not my recollection of the thread. I was quite engaged.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Lord help Me Jesus, You died for Me, yet I am not important to you. That sort of belittles God's gift to us doesn't it?

No. If Christ died for you it is of utmost importance. It belittles Christ to claim that He accomplished salvation for all of mankind, but did not secure it.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

I seek God because I need God

Does one continually seek God when one has God?

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

Does one continually seek God when one has God?

I don't know if I want to use the word seek, maybe I should say 'panteth'.....but yes I continually seek God. I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.

Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.

Saying 'God saves all His people', or 'God doesn't need you', even though I know what those quotes are intended for, other readers may get confused by that. And that may not matter to you, but it does to me....we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me. But then I'm not the judge...I'm just saying we are here to help people understand the gospel, not to feel comfortable enough to stir a pinch of confusion here and there into the pot but not comfortable enough to explain the root of that belief.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.

No kiddin'

Would you then explain to me what the op was asking?

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

No kiddin'

Would you then explain to me what the op was asking?

It is easier for me to end our conversation.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.

Well said.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.

Sometimes when we are engaging in a point/counterpoint discussion, I am sure to be guilty.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me.

And I appreciate your admonishment. I try to be short and pointed with my comments. Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by bullethead

It is easier for me to end our conversation.

figures.

[Asath]

All well and good, reading the last several dozen posts, but all of this fulminating nonsense gets us no closer to the point. Loud and insistent is usually the opposite of well thought out and empirically true.

In order to put forward the idea of a 'Heaven,' it would be incumbent upon the person proposing such an idea to prove, at least by anecdotal evidence, that such a thing exists. That can't be done.

Just 'How' one achieves this fictitious fantasy is of no value if there is no such thing -- and there is not. There is not a single bit of anything at all that points us towards a 'Heaven,' aside some ancient stories that are contradictory at best and thoroughly conflicting under the most optimistic interpretations of them.

One's 'free-will,' on the other hand, is just that -- the ability to evaluate the actual world around them; to freely question the motives of those who would direct ones thoughts and deeds; the ability and willingness to ask that the truth be demonstrated PRIOR to asking one to bow down before it; the freedom to investigate other lines of thought; and the ability to reject clear nonsense that does not align with genuine observation.

Any 'free-will' argument that begins with the contention that, "God gave me the ability to reject Him, and thus live in Sin, and thus condemn myself," is so internally self-contradicting as to be absurd. Either you believe in your God or you do not -- there can be no 'But, only IF' involved. This is not a question involving hundreds of thousands of subtle shades of meanings and interpretations -- it is a Yes or No question.

If the God of myth and legend is as described, then there is not, and by definition cannot be such a thing as free-will. If it is put forward that one HAS the ability to choose, but that ability was one that was GIVEN, then it ceases immediately to be an ability, and is yet another precondition, granted not as a true 'freedom,' but more as a 'rat in a maze' sort of test.

At that point the question circles back on itself, and has only the meaning one wishes to lend. Here is where 'Belief' parts company with 'Truth.'

You can't have a 'Heaven' unless it can be shown that there is such a thing -- and that can't be shown. And you can't have 'free-will' if it was never your own to begin with, and was granted as a 'gift' from above.

You can only pick one -- not both. Freedom? Or God?

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.

Well I'm sure that's me....I'm the infamous, Ramblin Rose...lol. I just don't want to leave people hanging with that ?huh? look on their face. Not any one that posts here, but those who just lurk and read and never say a word or ask a question. Lurking is not a bad thing, either. If perhaps they are curious and know nothing about the bible, then they haven't a clue as to what you're talking about, even though most of us around here, do. Then as soon as they ask an honest question and get jumped by the wolves then they run away and never come back.

See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet...and had a whole other effect on them....like I see every day on here....not you personally.....goes something like this.........

'well if they/you (lurkers) don't get it, they/you should go read your bible'......Jesus will say "good work my good a faithful servent, thanks for your time"....eh?

That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet

See Asath's post above. I appreciate the time and effort he put in it. Very well thought out and articulate. He could just have said "If heaven exist, prove it. If God exist, free-will does not." But in doing so, one does not have room to ridicule or demean. I do not think it is intentional, just inherent in the rambling.

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.

Sometimes the best place to be is out of line.

[BrettJ]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Brett, you're wasting your time, just like the original poster, nobody really cares what we think, they just bait us so they can smack us upside the head with how stupid we are.

We will have free will in heaven. We won't be robots. We will enjoy everything about life. We will spend most of forever on a perfect earth. We will have all the pros in life and none of the cons. We will be able to hunt, and fish and no one gets killed accidentally, nothing will be polluted. I could say more of what I personally think heaven would be like, as the op asked, but that would be a waste of time....someone is here with a stick to

You are probably right. These people really dont understand and dont want to understand. They think that heaven is like the world. They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin. In our perfection we will only want to worship God. They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do. He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life. Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes. Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ. If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us, well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation. I hope they like it HOT.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

You are probably right. These people really dont understand and dont want to understand. They think that heaven is like the world. They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin. In our perfection we will only want to worship God. They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do. He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life. Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes. Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ. If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us, well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation. I hope they like it HOT.

I am fascinated that YOU understand. YOU "get it". You know how it all goes and yet if you were to have a conversation on here with ten other Christians none of you would agree on everything even though they "understand,get it, and know".
I'd love to know how many times God has actually told you how it really is and how many times you have visited heaven.
I suspect that only in your own personal mind do these things exist.

[BrettJ]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Impressive for someone who has never been to heaven or has ever talked to God. I bet Heaven is EXACTLY as you want it to be, probably not a coincidence.

No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible. I have talked to God. I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me. He talks to me through His word the bible.

[BrettJ]

Originally Posted by atlashunter

I've already addressed your points here. Instead of simply repeating yourself try responding to what I've said. Let's start with a definition of sin and go from there.

Sin is rebellion agaisnt God.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible. I have talked to God. I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me. He talks to me through His word the bible.

Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it". I am just not easily influenced by mans words.

[centerpin fan]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it".

[bullethead]

Yeah,I'll stay with my wife......Morgan Fairchild.....

[centerpin fan]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Yeah,I'll stay with my wife......Morgan Fairchild.....

What are you talking about? She's my wife!

I miss Lovitz.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by centerpin fan

What are you talking about? She's my wife!

I miss Lovitz.

[StriperAddict]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it".

LOL!, but... Go for it. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by StriperAddict

LOL!, but... Go for it. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words

striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?

[BrettJ]

Originally Posted by bullethead

Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it". I am just not easily influenced by mans words.

Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it.

[BrettJ]

Originally Posted by bullethead

striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?

Im pulling for you too. What did you not get in 20 years that caused you to walk away from God?

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it.

Been there, done that.
The more I read, the more I experienced, the more it became clear to me that God, any God, had nothing to do with the Bible.

[bullethead]

Originally Posted by BrettJ

Im pulling for you too. What did you not get in 20 years that caused you to walk away from God?

What do you mean by "what did I not get"??

For 20 years I thought I "got" it. I had a few bad experiences with the inner workings of churches, parishioners and clergy. I started to read the Bible intensely. The more I read I found myself questioning the validity of it. The more I found it fallible. The more I saw man's influence and motives.
The hardest part was not feeling guilty for doubting and asking the first question. The more questions I asked, the more I sat down with clergy, the worse I felt. I do not have a problem with God. I have a problem with organized religion portraying God to be exactly as that particular religion needs him to be to suit their needs.

[gemcgrew]

Originally Posted by bullethead

The more questions I asked, the more I sat down with clergy, the worse I felt. I do not have a problem with God. I have a problem with organized religion portraying God to be exactly as that particular religion needs him to be to suit their needs.

Makes perfect sense to me. Did you know that for about the first two hundred years after Christ, the church never had special buildings of their own? And when at last they did, exhortation was reduced into the issuing of commands. Organized religion and local churches, gotta love it.

[centerpin fan]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

Organized religion and local churches, gotta love it.

What would you replace them with?

[Asath]

“Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it. “

Sorry to interrupt again, but this is one of my favorites – this is the one that made Oprah a hugely wealthy woman, and is still used as the last fallback position of everyone under the sun who cannot explain, prove, or articulate – I speak here of the ‘You just don’t GET IT,’ argument.

The implied and explicit argument here is that unless I actually BECOME the person making the contention, it will forever be impossible for me to know what is in THEIR mind. Teenagers use this one as a weapon – “YOU don’t know ME!” (Anyone heard that one before?) Sorry. Didn’t work then, won’t work now.

The fundamental problem with this argument is that it relies on an assumption of ignorance on the part of the person to whom it is delivered – and in this Forum that assumption is far from the case. You ask us to stoop down, and forget that we understand far, far more than the accuser.

Because of that understanding, and that education, we ask quite simply – IF you propose that the ‘inspired words of God,’ were somehow put into the writing of only a terribly few people in a terribly remote part of the world at a time when hardly anyone at all was acquainted with this new-fangled invention of ‘writing,’ let alone ‘reading’ – And IF the God who gave this dictation to his very few human stenographers actually spoke those words, aloud, to those few recording secretaries – THEN HOW COME NONE OF THEM AGREE?

You see, there is a huge chasm of difference between what is often held to be “THE WORD OF GOD,” and the immediate fallback position that, “Well, Um, God INSPIRED the Word, but didn’t actually say it, so MERE MEN may have gotten it wrong.”

Ya think? Which is it? GOD’S WORD, or the ‘inspired’ words of men? Think about that one for as moment.

Did GOD write the stuff? Or did ‘inspired’ men (without getting into just what their particular ‘Inspirations’ might have been) write it, and spread it well before most folks even learned to read?