Is the atheistic view/belief/reality that there is free-will? - Thx.

WaltL1

Senior Member
So..........how do you convince someone that does not want to believe?
Look up in the sky tonight if it is clear, Bible tells of making the moon and the stars (I would say go out side now and look straight at that big shining ball but I ain't that mean). Look around you of all that he has created. The day will come when you take that last breath, hopefully you have made a turn around before then and not learn of his existence the hard or I mean hot way.

Carry on:deadhorse:
When you say this to a nonbeliever I'm really curious to know if it enters your mind that YOU do the EXACT same thing?
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Is convincing me too great of a task for your god?
Don't give me the free will excuse.
I am open to any god that wants to contact me.

If reading creation stories in ancient texts is what convinces you, you have a couple dozen more gods to be worshipping.

I will let my time on Earth speak for anything that wants to judge me when I die.
Is convincing me too great of a task for your god?
We hear all the stories -
"I was here doing this and BAM!!! God spoke to me or did this or did that. It was God. No question. I'm changed now. I was a scumbag before but now I'm going to Heaven".
They will tell you all about how God reached out, did whatever, and left NO doubt in their mind.......
But they expect you to be convinced by them or a book or some preacher who flew in on his jet..... :huh:
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
We hear all the stories -
"I was here doing this and BAM!!! God spoke to me or did this or did that. It was God. No question. I'm changed now. I was a scumbag before but now I'm going to Heaven".
They will tell you all about how God reached out, did whatever, and left NO doubt in their mind.......
But they expect you to be convinced by them or a book or some preacher who flew in on his jet..... :huh:
Yeah.
I'm wanting it incorrectly.
 

RegularJoe

Senior Member
if some diety wants me to know of it's existence then it would know how to do it in a way that would be convincing to me. +
Is convincing me too great of a task for your god?....
Yo Bullet -

You prompt 2 thoughts to emerge as i have carefully read all of your above posts to this point ....

1. The 'God' of 'The Bible' reports in The Bible that per that god's original plan, only 'the elect'ed to be 'convinced' are ever to be of his view.
The 'Biblical' version of God never reports that his plan had included in it to convince anyone.
It is more on the order of ~ folks are free to take it or leave it, & no problem.
i fully recognize & fully respect that your related view is that 'a deity,' if he/she/it were a deity :- ), would be inclined toward wanting to convince you.
[Btw.... If one wishes to do a Bible text search on the 'elect,' it can be expected be found to be in hundreds of places.]

2. My understanding of the 'Biblical' God is that he has no intent in forcing or even 'convincing' anyone to buy into him.
Moreover, should one wish to look around at one's reality & conclude the 'Biblical' version of 'God' had nothing to do with it....
the Biblical God does not say he is going to spend time trying to convince that person otherwise.
His sort of related Bible stated view is
(i am not suggesting that you should or should not subscribe to this view :- )
that he has provided enough tangible evidence of his existence already.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Yo Bullet -

You prompt 2 thoughts to emerge as i have carefully read all of your above posts to this point ....

1. The 'God' of 'The Bible' reports in The Bible that per that god's original plan, only 'the elect'ed to be 'convinced' are ever to be of his view.
The 'Biblical' version of God never reports that his plan had included in it to convince anyone.
It is more on the order of ~ folks are free to take it or leave it, & no problem.
i fully recognize & fully respect that your related view is that 'a deity,' if he/she/it were a deity :- ), would be inclined toward wanting to convince you.
[Btw.... If one wishes to do a Bible text search on the 'elect,' it can be expected be found to be in hundreds of places.]

2. My understanding of the 'Biblical' God is that he has no intent in forcing or even 'convincing' anyone to buy into him.
Moreover, should one wish to look around at one's reality & conclude the 'Biblical' version of 'God' had nothing to do with it....
the Biblical God does not say he is going to spend time trying to convince that person otherwise.
His sort of related Bible stated view is
(i am not suggesting that you should or should not subscribe to this view :- )
that he has provided enough tangible evidence of his existence already.

I am well aware of what Biblical text says.
I also find those texts quite telling in that they are various writings by mostly anonymous authors that took centuries to write. They were assembled by men.
I find the claims of a god capable of creation yet does not write his own handbook and leaves his supposed word in the hands of men he would know will screw it up, a bit Ungodlike. Don't you? A god that supposedly cares for his children yet allows these writings to be the source of millions of deaths....in his name.....? Really? Wouldnt a god know the repercussions of such a book?
I am convinced that these writings are the result of tribal laws coming from tribal folklore meant for a specific tribe. All man influenced and all man made. Thou Shall Not Kill was meant for memebers of your own tribe, but was certainly not a universal rule for all of humanity as killing was not only condoned but ordered in the bible.

A fault in many believers points is that they(maybe you) assume that everyone else believes that the Bible is the word of their god because the words within say so....but nonbelievers deny it full well knowing deep down that it is true. Nothing could be further from the truth. I personally think anything that uses itself as the source of confirmation is the least truthful source.
If "because it says so in the bible" is legitimate proof, then the words contained in every other religions text that says so has also got to be equally as true.

Getting back to your "elect" point. I would counter it with bible also saying that all one has to do is ask and it shall be done. All one has to do is accept JC as Lord and Savior.

So which it?
Free Will or Predestination?
Willingness to accept or Never had a Chance because I am not chosen?

Or is it whichever answer is the most convenient answer for the situation?

How many people are out there accepting, worshipping, believing and going through life thinking they are the most loyal follower but when they die are not allowed in the pearly gates because they were never on the guest list?
It could be you. It could be 99% of christians.

The mental game is convincing yourself to believe in a god now so that you are taken care of later....and that "election" clause in the contract guarantees you nothing.
 
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j_seph

Senior Member
We hear all the stories -
"I was here doing this and BAM!!! God spoke to me or did this or did that. It was God. No question. I'm changed now. I was a scumbag before but now I'm going to Heaven".
They will tell you all about how God reached out, did whatever, and left NO doubt in their mind.......
But they expect you to be convinced by them or a book or some preacher who flew in on his jet..... :huh:
Maybe that is the problem, our preacher(s) and the ones I know don't have no jet. All of em I know drive old Toyotas, Chevrolet trucks, enjoy hunting and fishing. Matter of fact they all work full time jobs as well as some are pastors and still cannot afford no fancy new truck much less a jet. I may need to find me one of those jet flying preachers.:biggrin2:
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Maybe that is the problem, our preacher(s) and the ones I know don't have no jet. All of em I know drive old Toyotas, Chevrolet trucks, enjoy hunting and fishing. Matter of fact they all work full time jobs as well as some are pastors and still cannot afford no fancy new truck much less a jet. I may need to find me one of those jet flying preachers.:biggrin2:
I admit that jet thing is an extreme example. But a true example. Just turn on the tv.
But yes, I would imagine the vast majority of preachers are hard working family men who probably give a lot more than they receive.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Yo Bullet -

You prompt 2 thoughts to emerge as i have carefully read all of your above posts to this point ....

1. The 'God' of 'The Bible' reports in The Bible that per that god's original plan, only 'the elect'ed to be 'convinced' are ever to be of his view.
The 'Biblical' version of God never reports that his plan had included in it to convince anyone.
It is more on the order of ~ folks are free to take it or leave it, & no problem.
i fully recognize & fully respect that your related view is that 'a deity,' if he/she/it were a deity :- ), would be inclined toward wanting to convince you.
[Btw.... If one wishes to do a Bible text search on the 'elect,' it can be expected be found to be in hundreds of places.]

2. My understanding of the 'Biblical' God is that he has no intent in forcing or even 'convincing' anyone to buy into him.
Moreover, should one wish to look around at one's reality & conclude the 'Biblical' version of 'God' had nothing to do with it....
the Biblical God does not say he is going to spend time trying to convince that person otherwise.
His sort of related Bible stated view is
(i am not suggesting that you should or should not subscribe to this view :- )
that he has provided enough tangible evidence of his existence already.
That "tangible" evidence would also be tangible evidence for every other creation story.
A person, in this case Christians, is the one who decides who "he" is.
Different religion/belief, different "he".
 

atlashunter

Senior Member
I struggle seeing benefits of parents killing their kids.

Me too. Another good reason why christianity is a non-starter.
 

RegularJoe

Senior Member
I am well aware of what Biblical text says.
I also find those texts quite telling in that they are various writings by mostly anonymous authors that took centuries to write. They were assembled by men.
I find the claims of a god capable of creation yet does not write his own handbook and leaves his supposed word in the hands of men he would know will screw it up, a bit Ungodlike. Don't you? A god that supposedly cares for his children yet allows these writings to be the source of millions of deaths....in his name.....? Really? Wouldnt a god know the repercussions of such a book?
I am convinced that these writings are the result of tribal laws coming from tribal folklore meant for a specific tribe. All man influenced and all man made. Thou Shall Not Kill was meant for memebers of your own tribe, but was certainly not a universal rule for all of humanity as killing was not only condoned but ordered in the bible.

A fault in many believers points is that they(maybe you) assume that everyone else believes that the Bible is the word of their god because the words within say so....but nonbelievers deny it full well knowing deep down that it is true. Nothing could be further from the truth. I personally think anything that uses itself as the source of confirmation is the least truthful source.
If "because it says so in the bible" is legitimate proof, then the words contained in every other religions text that says so has also got to be equally as true.

Getting back to your "elect" point. I would counter it with bible also saying that all one has to do is ask and it shall be done. All one has to do is accept JC as Lord and Savior.

So which it?
Free Will or Predestination?
Willingness to accept or Never had a Chance because I am not chosen?

Or is it whichever answer is the most convenient answer for the situation?

How many people are out there accepting, worshipping, believing and going through life thinking they are the most loyal follower but when they die are not allowed in the pearly gates because they were never on the guest list?
It could be you. It could be 99% of christians.

The mental game is convincing yourself to believe in a god now so that you are taken care of later....and that "election" clause in the contract guarantees you nothing.
Heard.
Please understand that i am not endeavoring to be supportive of any particular faith base ideology (including atheism) in my post(s) ... merely offering what seems to me to be relevant personal observations.
 

RegularJoe

Senior Member
That "tangible" evidence would also be tangible evidence for every other creation story.
A person, in this case Christians, is the one who decides who "he" is.
Different religion/belief, different "he".
Concur.
And, .... as well, 'the one who decides who "he" is' not :- ) even works for the atheism.
All views of life, just as you say, can use much (i have added 'much') the same 'tangible' evidence.
And, while that 'tangible' evidence may be helpful to each view of life no view of life is fully provable... thus all views of life require faith even with the aforementioned 'tangible' evidence.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
What faith is required when someone admits that they just do not know?
Not a believer, not a non believer, but they have not found any evidence to satisfy them that a god exists. What does faith have to do with that Regular Joe?
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Concur.
And, .... as well, 'the one who decides who "he" is' not :- ) even works for the atheism.
All views of life, just as you say, can use much (i have added 'much') the same 'tangible' evidence.
And, while that 'tangible' evidence may be helpful to each view of life no view of life is fully provable... thus all views of life require faith even with the aforementioned 'tangible' evidence.
And, .... as well, 'the one who decides who "he" is' not :- ) even works for the atheism.
An Atheist does not decide who "he" is not.
An Atheist does not believe there even is a "he" because there is no evidence that a "he" exists.
thus all views of life require faith
No, not all views.
The view that God doesn't exist doesn't require faith.
Faith in something is when you believe it to be true despite the fact that there is no proof its true.
That a god or God exists cant, in fact, be proven.
No faith required. Just facts or a lack thereof.
 

red neck richie

Senior Member
An Atheist does not decide who "he" is not.
An Atheist does not believe there even is a "he" because there is no evidence that a "he" exists.

No, not all views.
The view that God doesn't exist doesn't require faith.
Faith in something is when you believe it to be true despite the fact that there is no proof its true.
That a god or God exists cant, in fact, be proven.
No faith required. Just facts or a lack thereof.

Walt do you think atheist dwell too much on what can be explained by man and don't explore the spirit?
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Walt do you think atheist dwell too much on what can be explained by man and don't explore the spirit?

Richie, the spirit is a person wanting a god so much that they subconsciously convince themself that some outside force dwells within.
Its not necessarily a bad thing....to a point.
 

red neck richie

Senior Member
Richie, the spirit is a person wanting a god so much that they subconsciously convince themself that some outside force dwells within.
Its not necessarily a bad thing....to a point.

Bullet, what do you think about American Indians spiritual believes before the white man came?
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Bullet, what do you think about American Indians spiritual believes before the white man came?

I know I've said this before and have linked sites to go with it...
Early man grieved at the loss of friends and loved ones. At some point someone was talking to a deceased loved one out of frustration, looking for guidance or simply because they missed them. I think that happened a lot and was done by many.
At some other point someone in the group or tribe or clan claimed that they can communicate with the dead and relayed what the spirit(s) told them. The longer it went on the more complicated the next shawman got. Add in some hallucinogenic plants or mushrooms and the entire crew has a spiritual experience. Let it snowball from there.

That is a very loose and watered down version. It would make a great read to research the history of the earliest beliefs and religions to see where it went as humans advanced.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
The Sioux worshiped Wakan Tanka before any outside influence. Where would this belief had come from?

Yes, Wakan Tanka. The various forces within nature. Also known as Grandfather and many other names.
The Lakota worshipped him too. As did other tribes.

Not odd that many tribes and cultures used family names for their gods and spirits, it ties in with the early history of religion(s) that I talked about earlier.
 
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