More food for thought concerning soil health and food plot strategies

GeorgeShu · Aug 21, 2017

I subscribe to a email publication called "Growing Georgia". It is a ag news type product with a variety of topics covered. Today it contained an interesting article concerning soil health and plants reactions to changes in soil health. I believe it has implications for us food plotters as well as farmers. It is food for thought concerning no-till vs conventional tillage and the impact on plants we grow.

Go to URL: http://growinggeorgia.com/

Click on the article titled: The Corn Really Does Have Ears

doomtrpr_z71 · Aug 21, 2017

Here's a direct link, he makes some rather bold claims http://growinggeorgia.com/features/2017/08/do-plants-talk-one-another/?utm_source=Growing+Georgia&utm_campaign=876b15bf55-growinggeorgia-daily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4643f190f7-876b15bf55-287986993

nrh0011 · Aug 21, 2017

Interesting ideas. There is alot of research being done right now on how a symbiotic relationship with a fungus called mycorrhizae (may see it also called VAM) helps with phosphorus uptake.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 21, 2017

nrh0011 said:
Interesting ideas. There is alot of research being done right now on how a symbiotic relationship with a fungus called mycorrhizae (may see it also called VAM) helps with phosphorus uptake.

From what Ive read on it the mycorrhizae are in the soil naturally, in areas they are heavy the soil is healthy. The rhizome ( root zone) is colonized and the roots are able to uptake the nutrients completely.

Ive been reading into this as on our land we have some hunters that want food plots which Im okay with, what I dont want is chemical ferts all over the place.

We have looked into applications or composted manure and rock phosphates for them.

Of course costs will be incurred in their lease price.

nrh0011 · Aug 22, 2017

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
From what Ive read on it the mycorrhizae are in the soil naturally, in areas they are heavy the soil is healthy. The rhizome ( root zone) is colonized and the roots are able to uptake the nutrients completely.

Ive been reading into this as on our land we have some hunters that want food plots which Im okay with, what I dont want is chemical ferts all over the place.

We have looked into applications or composted manure and rock phosphates for them.

Of course costs will be incurred in their lease price.

That's correct but not all plants will form a symbiotic relationship with the fungus. Why are you opposed to chemical fertilizers on your plots?

misterpink · Aug 22, 2017

All fertilizer is chemical there chief. Water is a chemical substance. Just because it doesn't fall out of an animal doesn't mean that it is bad for the soil/environment. Education is awesome.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

misterpink said:
All fertilizer is chemical there chief. Water is a chemical substance. Just because it doesn't fall out of an animal doesn't mean that it is bad for the soil/environment. Education is awesome.

Yes it does. Soil health and synthetic ferts dont belong in the same sentence and since this thread is about soil health, then synthetic ferts dont apply. He is asking about fungi, beneficial bacteria, the micro herd and the microbiology of a healthy soil.

A synthetically derived form of nitrogen, or chemical ferts- like ammonium nitrate for example, is in concentrated form and decreases the colonization of mychorrizae <-----( THE POINT OF THIS THREAD) in the rhizosphere . This damages the symbiotic relationship with the plant's roots to fix nitrogen.

The rhizosphere is the zone of soil surrounding the root which is affected by it. The significance of the
rhizosphere arises from the release of organic material from the root and the subsequent effect of
increased microbial activity on nutrient cycling and plant growth. In the rhizosphere the quantities and the
types of substrates are different from those in the bulk soil and this leads to colonization by different
populations of bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes.

Interactions that are beneficial to agriculture include mycorrhizae, legume nodulation and production of antimicrobial compounds that inhibit the growth of pathogens. The goal in manipulating the rhizosphere must be to increase the balance of beneficial effects as the rhizosphere is deeply affected by fertilization.

Synthetic " chemical " ferts leach, they enter water sources, gas off, and they destroy microbiology in the soil from over application and continued use.

By the way, not all organic fertilizers fall out of animals.

Education is great, you should get some.

Look at Mother Nature, she aint using 10-10-10.

Lets just say in 20 years raising ornamentals and trees, growing timber, hay, and produce to this very day.............. Ive gots me sum edumacation on it, chief.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

nrh0011 said:
That's correct but not all plants will form a symbiotic relationship with the fungus. Why are you opposed to chemical fertilizers on your plots?

Because I cant think of anywhere in nature that 10-10-10 is found naturally.

doomtrpr_z71 · Aug 23, 2017

10-10-10 is mined out of the ground and the nitrogen is synthesised from the air you breathe, might want to check your education.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

doomtrpr_z71 said:
10-10-10 is mined out of the ground and the nitrogen is synthesised from the air you breathe, might want to check your education.

My education is fine.

LOL, kinda vague on the "mined" explanation aint ya? The synthetic chemical fertilizer production process uses carbon dioxide, not nitrogen. Urea nitrogen is the by product of the " mining " process.

Synthetic urea nitrogen fertilizers, the most commonly used synthetic fert is manufactured by injecting carbon dioxide into coal seams to extract carbamide.

Once the ammonium carbamide urea is obtained it is super heated in tanks producing a deadly ammonium gas. Once cooled it is pelleted or powdered, bagged, and sold to be spread into the soil, which it kills.

Synthetic urea, phosphorus, and potassium kills soil micro biology <---( THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD, DID YOU READ THE TITLE? )

Synthetic urea or synthetically produced fertilizers burn the microbiology in the soil up. They are only directly available to the plant, NOT THE SOIL - thusly they have no place in SOIL HEALTH.

If farmers were banned from using synthetic chemical fertilizers and treatments on farms where they have been used exclusively for years they would grow NOTHING if they had to rely on the soil. The soil is DEAD on land that has been regularly fertilized with synthetically processed chemical fertilizers. It only feeds the PLANTS, not the SOIL. The microbiology in the soil cannot process them and they are killed by its by products.

The only urea that doesn't do damage to the soil flows out the end of your manhood.

The point of this thread is SOIL HEALTH.

GeorgeShu · Aug 23, 2017

I am an old coot, long on experience and education but short of memory these days. One thing I do remember is that there is usually more than one way to skin a cat. The method you choose is up to you but remember the mission is to skin the cat.
Traditional (and ever changing) methods have produced plentiful food supplies for man kind. People are always experimenting looking for better ways to produce food and that is a good thing. Experimentation takes many forms including improved seed varieties, tillage methods, pest control techniques and soil management strategies among others. Everyone has their personal preferences and belief systems. That is all good.
In terms of food plots, many chose to simulate traditional ag techniques on a smaller scale. We take soil tests and add amendments to make the soil suitable for forage crops for wildlife to consume. We use chemicals to control weeds and maybe some insect pests at time. We typically turn under one year of forage growth to recycled for soil improvement.
Some food plotters advocate minimum or no-till approaches. They cite lower costs over time due to reduced tractor time, better soil health, similar yields, better soil moisture, something growing year round versus dirt only time with tillage, etc.
Both of these methods and others will skin the cat.
Another observation is that mother nature is very quick to reclaim "unused land". Over the years I have been amazed at the amount of land that used to be farmed with traditional techniques lies vacant and unused. Stop and look at it. It is full of plant growth of all kinds. No dead soil there.
I suggest each of us should pick the method they prefer, advocate it if you like, demonstrate your success, and even try to convince others to try it.
BUT, lets keep things civil in our discourse. No one has a monoply on knowledge. One thing I do know is that there are some pretty sharp people on this forum and they can pick through the chaff for the seeds quite well.
Choose you method, skin the cat and share your success and failures so we all can learn.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

GeorgeShu said:
I am an old coot, long on experience and education but short of memory these days. One thing I do remember is that there is usually more than one way to skin a cat. The method you choose is up to you but remember the mission is to skin the cat.
Traditional (and ever changing) methods have produced plentiful food supplies for man kind. People are always experimenting looking for better ways to produce food and that is a good thing. Experimentation takes many forms including improved seed varieties, tillage methods, pest control techniques and soil management strategies among others. Everyone has their personal preferences and belief systems. That is all good.
In terms of food plots, many chose to simulate traditional ag techniques on a smaller scale. We take soil tests and add amendments to make the soil suitable for forage crops for wildlife to consume. We use chemicals to control weeds and maybe some insect pests at time. We typically turn under one year of forage growth to recycled for soil improvement.
Some food plotters advocate minimum or no-till approaches. They cite lower costs over time due to reduced tractor time, better soil health, similar yields, better soil moisture, something growing year round versus dirt only time with tillage, etc.
Both of these methods and others will skin the cat.
Another observation is that mother nature is very quick to reclaim "unused land". Over the years I have been amazed at the amount of land that used to be farmed with traditional techniques lies vacant and unused. Stop and look at it. It is full of plant growth of all kinds. No dead soil there.
I suggest each of us should pick the method they prefer, advocate it if you like, demonstrate your success, and even try to convince others to try it.
BUT, lets keep things civil in our discourse. No one has a monoply on knowledge. One thing I do know is that there are some pretty sharp people on this forum and they can pick through the chaff for the seeds quite well.
Choose you method, skin the cat and share your success and failures so we all can learn.

Great post.

I agree.

I thought the slights taken at me about " education " by a few posters was uncalled for.

Dont kick the dog.

Ive only been growing,farming, timbering for 2 decades.

I have no experience. Internet know it alls.

misterpink · Aug 23, 2017

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
Because I cant think of anywhere in nature that 10-10-10 is found naturally.

Sometimes it's hard to see the forest because of all those dang trees.

:cheers:

Forest Grump · Aug 23, 2017

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
...By the way, not all organic fertilizers fall out of animals.

Education is great, you should get some.
...
Look at Mother Nature, she aint using 10-10-10.

You started the comments about "education".

There happen to be some very knowledgeable & well educated people contributing to this thread. People with specific knowledge of the topics you are discussing.

Education goes both ways.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
My education is fine.

LOL, kinda vague on the "mined" explanation aint ya? ...

You referenced 10-10-10: 2 of those 10's are P & K, which ARE mined from the earth. Most N in chemical fertilizers is a by product of various fossil fuel industries. They came into common use following the 2 World Wars because they were cheaper & to utilize the products of the explosives industry which were no longer in demand.

It is rather impractical to propose using only organic fertilizers on every farm given the scale of modern US Agriculture; logistically it would be prohibitive, as well as creating new issues with the Global Warming crowd. Plus, if you don't have the P, K, S, B, Ca, etc.. in your soil, you have to add it, regardless of the health of your microbiotic community. Once your soil is balanced & replete with nutrients, it is easier to maintain it using a no-till approach; but soils in the SE are very old, abused & depleted of many or most of the nutrients plants need.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
I thought the slights taken at me about " education " by a few posters was uncalled for.

Don't kick the dog.

Ive only been growing,farming, timbering for 2 decades.

I have no experience. Internet know it alls.

If the dog growls first, he might get kicked in response...

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

Forest Grump said:
You started the comments about "education".

There happen to be some very knowledgeable & well educated people contributing to this thread. People with specific knowledge of the topics you are discussing.

Education goes both ways.

You referenced 10-10-10: 2 of those 10's are P & K, which ARE mined from the earth. Most N in chemical fertilizers is a by product of various fossil fuel industries. They came into common use following the 2 World Wars because they were cheaper & to utilize the products of the explosives industry which were no longer in demand.

It is rather impractical to propose using only organic fertilizers on every farm given the scale of modern US Agriculture; logistically it would be prohibitive, as well as creating new issues with the Global Warming crowd. Plus, if you don't have the P, K, S, B, Ca, etc.. in your soil, you have to add it, regardless of the health of your microbiotic community. Once your soil is balanced & replete with nutrients, it is easier to maintain it using a no-till approach; but soils in the SE are very old, abused & depleted of many or most of the nutrients plants need.

If the dog growls first, he might get kicked in response...

LOL, no I didnt.

Post Numero Seis compadre, Senor Pink " education is great. " My in 'tween the lines reader functions flawlessly.

And we aint talking agricultural farms on the scale youre trying to steer this in the direction of.

Mister Pink proposed a question of education, deal with it.

Unless you are Bill Jordan you aint planting ag scale plots.

Run Forrest, RUN!

AND, once again, the topic is SOIL HEALTH, you dont get that with synthetic ferts, you get a top soil devoid of microbiology and a layer of readily available NPK, the bulk soil below absorbs the run off and then leaches it into the water table.

If you want to discuss the specifics of soil biology and the micro - biologic relationship with plants and healthy soil Im all for it, this its what this topic in the OP was about.

Not you giving me a talking to, save it please.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

... and of course Forrest large scale commerical ag uses sythetic ferts, you wanna eat that? I dont.

Up until a few years back I thought paying the GA State DOA for " organic cert " was such a great thing until I told them to cram it and still got the same price and grow the same way I always did without signing papers and paying fees.

But then again, this thread was about soil microbiology and healthy soil for FOOD PLOTS, not food production.

It amazes me the levels of selecting reading some people can display.

But in the end to each his own, but stay on topic please.

doomtrpr_z71 · Aug 23, 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_processthat is how nitrogen from the atmosphere is used to create ammonia, the process you describe can only create urea which breaks down into ammonia, via soil microbes. The majority of urea is made from ammonia which is formed in a similar manner to nitrogen during thunderstorms using the aforementioned process. Nothing in the article was against regular fertilizer, it was more for conservation tillage. Soil health is improved by things like conservation tillage, its not killed by fertilizer. Some soil microbes actually need the nitrogen for their calvin cycle. Applying conventional fertilizer doesn't kill your soil it AMENDS it. The topic of the article is the root network with fungi, not OMG fertilizer killz soils. The fungi he speaks of are beneficial but in some cases they can actually cause damage to the plant, too much of a good thing is usually not good. I applied a 32 gallon/ac solution of the aforementioned microbes and even at that high of a rate there was no benefit seen in a weathered soil in convectional tillage. This is coming from someone who had actually had a scientific poster stolen by organic hippies earlier this year.

Forest Grump · Aug 23, 2017

BabyIcanGuesstheRest said:
... and of course Forest large scale commerical ag uses sythetic ferts, you wanna eat that? I dont.

Up until a few years back I thought paying the GA State DOA for " organic cert " was such a great thing until I told them to cram it and still got the same price and grow the same way I always did without signing papers and paying fees.

But then again, this thread was about soil microbiology and healthy soil for FOOD PLOTS, not food production.

It amazes me the levels of selecting reading some people can display.

But in the end to each his own, but stay on topic please.

Most people in this country get their food from a grocery store: they (we) DO "eat that"/wear that/support that... Lot of folks on here make a living from "that", in one form or another. I doubt they need your condescension, & they certainly don't deserve it.

Based on what you have posted so far in George's thread, I give you at best a month before the Admins ban you. More is the pity; you might have learned something.

And farming is farming, whether you are growing a garden, a food plot, or a 1000 acre field. The principles are the same, only the scale differs.

But rest assured: You will get no further teaching from me.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

Forest Grump said:
Most people in this country get their food from a grocery store: they (we) DO "eat that"/wear that/support that... Lot of folks on here make a living from "that", in one form or another. I doubt they need your condescension, & they certainly don't deserve it.

Based on what you have posted so far in George's thread, I give you at best a month before the Admins ban you. More is the pity; you might have learned something.

And farming is farming, whether you are growing a garden, a food plot, or a 1000 acre field. The principles are the same, only the scale differs.

But rest assured: You will get no further teaching from me.

Whys that Forrest, because you accused me of stating something I didnt state? You spoke out of hand. The " education " issue was brought up by Mister Pink, which I see you have completely avoided, and was furthered by another poster, and then you. So whos at fault here Forrest? I am getting attacked for something I didnt say by YOU.

In other words blah, blah, blah. Im discussing the topic and you are throwing around accusations. You're kidding right?

Seems to me your name fits well.

BabyIcanGuesstheRest · Aug 23, 2017

doomtrpr_z71 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_processthat is how nitrogen from the atmosphere is used to create ammonia, the process you describe can only create urea which breaks down into ammonia, via soil microbes. The majority of urea is made from ammonia which is formed in a similar manner to nitrogen during thunderstorms using the aforementioned process. Nothing in the article was against regular fertilizer, it was more for conservation tillage. Soil health is improved by things like conservation tillage, its not killed by fertilizer. Some soil microbes actually need the nitrogen for their calvin cycle. Applying conventional fertilizer doesn't kill your soil it AMENDS it. The topic of the article is the root network with fungi, not OMG fertilizer killz soils. The fungi he speaks of are beneficial but in some cases they can actually cause damage to the plant, too much of a good thing is usually not good. I applied a 32 gallon/ac solution of the aforementioned microbes and even at that high of a rate there was no benefit seen in a weathered soil in convectional tillage. This is coming from someone who had actually had a scientific poster stolen by organic hippies earlier this year.

Synthetic nitrogen fertilizers reduce soil microbial biodiversity by increased use.

Also, if you read back in my post I state quite clearly the form of nitrogen I am referring to, its the most common and overused. Your wikipedia link is ammonium nitrate.

Any terrestrial ecosystem, plant community, or microbial biomass is affected by synthetic nitrogen use quickly. Unlike natural ferts that are slow release and being natural they do not reduce microbial populations as degradation is a timely process. It takes a little work.
Syn Ferts are easy, its why they are used but they do nothig to aid in soil building/soil health, they only feed plants.

You also are not going to see any application of microbes take an over the season noticeable effect for you. Microbial healthy soils are a time honored process. I have 10 years into building some plots that have had wood chips tilled into them to bring carbon back into an overtilled soil as well as composted manures, composted grass and hays, composted leaves litter to name a few. Micro-biologic soil health isnt achieved by spraying a jug of microbes, which are killed by heat/sunlight and within 24 hours of being shipped from the brewer/harvester.

You do you and I'll do me, like I said, to each his own, :cheers:

More food for thought concerning soil health and food plot strategies

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