Reasons Christianity and the bible are false

Israel said:

Really, why wouldn't He?

Do you think He's ashamed of what He's established?

Matters of implantations...and even explantations are very much His concern, the uprootings of things not established by righteous implantation.

We are both men, will either of us, or both...now feign an ignorance or parade cleverness as cover?

Did we marry the cheerleader? What team did we quaterback for to gain her eye? Then her ear? Then her attention by carving ourselves up to whittle down all else in her heart? What did we adopt to advantage and abandon to disuse by its manifest inutility...in our quest to put something in her belly? Did we write her poetry? Build a city? Or did we find her the more inclined to be delighted by a man slayer? What trophy did we present?What did we do to prepare her earth for our reception?

Where is our eye...aimed? What did we, what do we...reach out with then...to gain? What has taught us what gain is? What do we dazzle with to apprehend? What do we send out with marching orders...to bring back plunder? Some skill? Intellect? Power? Some remarkable ability to make this world...our own? What do we extend to see our own image and likeness reproduced...to be satisfied? And what do we withhold to starve out what we find displeasing...that is unlike us? In what universe would you and I not have a siege mentality?

Yes, the Bible is written by men, men who have "told on themselves" after finding themselves, the besiegers, themselves besieged by the stronger. He has made Himself to appear in their eye, then their ear, and then heart that something might be placed in their belly. And, they wrote. Moved by a Spirit.

And out from their belly shall flow rivers...

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

When we are laid waste by that stronger, spread wide open as a city whose walls are in ruin, whose doors and gates are blown off hinges by one word...the sperma of God...something will grow...implanted.

Of course God understands sex...and war. And football, decathlons, drinking contests, and hunting. And thinking.

It is we...who do not.

We are all men busy just trying to conquer the man we know we are not. And so we take the battle outside, lest we hurt our own selves.

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Really, why wouldn't He?
Do you think He's ashamed of what He's established?

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That might be a question better directed at the Church/Christianity.
Give it some thought.

WaltL1 said:

That might be a question better directed at the Church/Christianity.
Give it some thought.

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It's an interesting proposition, but I was referring to sex.

But, let's take what I perceive as your line of reasoning...to direct this toward something other.

Are you ashamed of the church? Do you know it, have you seen it, have you ever been part of it? What part of it shames you? Or, what part of it do you find worthy of shame?

You may already know I find little benefit in reference to christianity as in reference it is a blurred amalgam of religious thought. It is not that itself (the word) is an offense, but that its utility requires a more than passing explanation of term before it shows any usefulness.

If christianity is indeed understood as being comprised of those whose faith is of Jesus Christ, then it may be found one is speaking of the church...but if one is merely adopting a usage to include any and all religious practice that somehow, somewhere makes reference to Jesus Christ, it becomes less so.

"The disciples were first called christians at Antioch." It could appear this word was hung upon them, placed upon them for reference. I don't know that it was adopted to themselves for I do not find the Spirit's urging there, that is to make a name that might be given out for an identity. Believers already know the name that identifies them to each other and there is a particular prohibition I find in spirit of any impetus that would result in the sort of phrase "hey, I've got it, we'll call ourselves...this!".

But anyway, I just found this page that expands a bit on some thoughts I have come to entirely apart from it.

http://ichthys.com/mail-the-name-Christian.htm

So...when you say "church/christianity" as though there is a presumed equivalence, well, most of what is of the church do understand that to some "we all just look alike". And that's just fine so long as you understand I have never recommended christianity to you, or anyone as anything...not looking for you to enlist in it, nor endorsing it in any sense as a good, or better thing. (to "belong" to)

And I have long since been convinced that as surely as I could not "make myself belong to Jesus Christ", I have no misconceptions about my ability to make a man anything, at all. Surely including my own self. I simply found out I am owned.

I think may just be looking for family. I'm just looking for the owner of all...wherever He may be found. And in whomever He cares to show up, and when. I'm not ashamed of my owner as I perceive the depths to which He has gone to have me returned to Him. And how He was not ashamed to do it, though every bit of man's scorn and shame was heaped upon heap to soil Him.
He kept himself unsullied. Because He alone, is the keeper.

Jesus Christ.

So, no, I find nothing of shame...in Him. Nor in what He has established.

Israel said:

I've always liked Ambush's scripture reference...it's so very to the point.
We could start there.

"She lusted after their paramours, whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue is like the issue of horses. "Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom because of the breasts of your youth."


Who's "giving it up" in trade for favor from the world?

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Christians?

atlashunter said:

Christians?

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Do you believe then, that of whichever christians you are presently speaking, the faith of Jesus Christ is compromised?

Since Walt's story remains very fresh in my mind, and conversations, at least on my part, are being mulled in light of it, my mind goes to several things regarding it.

First is the matter of representation. Was there not a time when in all things our own parents were as God to us? They represented all authority and power, both over us, and to us. Pleasure and provision were at their hand alone. But we learned something as we grew, both "out of their control" and into the world in which we found ourselves.

We learned of friends, playmates, things to do...which provided pleasures. Our parents, were not so "sole" as once they were. In this, their power to please was seen as fleeting as we sought out the "others" and other things. I think parents remember when the time has come that the child is not merely content to be held and cuddled...it wants down. The child is learning of its own powers. To crawl, to walk, to move about and discover...to exert some independence.

And here is where the seeming divergence of power and authority occur. For the parent's authority is undiminished even if its powers "over" the child begin a waning that not unusually, by teen years, is almost absent. Their powers to ground, chastise, restrict...even punish corporally are so outstripped by other pleasures discovered that their ground of authority is now open to attack.

We may attack on grounds of hypocrisy, and what child is not expert in finding a parent's pecadillos when they can be turned to the child's service? A child better than I never sought to uncover their parent's weaknesses. And capitalize, by whatever means, that were to the child's (seeming) advantage. Their power is now as nothing...and to the child, their authority, that is to dispense truth in matters of right and wrong, may be abandoned. They are reduced now, completely, no longer gods, at all. Just "other people". Simply to be regarded as to himself, the child sees fit.

And this is where the maintenance of authority by the parent despite all the casting off by the child may lead to the understanding of sorrow. The parent may not relinquish responsibility for what is now in as complete a resistance as can be exercised, still feeding, still housing, still caring for by means what to itself, wants as little to do with them, as possible.

It has much to do with growing in power that may lead to the mistaken notion that it now has power to completely cast off authority. But many is the child that returns, is brought to see and understand certain things about all of this that says (often through the power of life to inflict its undeniable power of tutelage) by authority of life
"Mom...Dad...I am sorry...and thank you...I see now..." Some, never get that opportunity, for life's patience with them has outstripped what has been afforded of it...to their parents.

Many things have power, but only One holds all power and authority to perfection. It is easy to see the flaws of power (to search out and find its weaknesses to be exploited) when one is pressed to by his own quest for it. And thereby even lose all seeming sense of authority. Even power given to serve...can be turned to its own service.

I didn't bother reading your long drawn out post. You've been repeatedly asked to make your point in a more concise manner. It appears you're either unwilling or unable to do that and I'm unwilling to read and try to piece together your posts that just seem to ramble. When it continues despite others requests (and I'm not the only one who has made the request) to get to the point it leads one to believe it's intentional.

That said...

My response to your question was made with the many ways christians rip off pop culture and secular marketing in mind.

Seth Andrews has an excellent speech on this topic on youtube titled The Copycats: How Christianity Steals The Best Ideas.

People who claim Jesus is the "reason for the season" while they decorate their Christmas tree don't exactly have a claim on originality.

atlashunter said:

I didn't bother reading your long drawn out post. You've been repeatedly asked to make your point in a more concise manner. It appears you're either unwilling or unable to do that and I'm unwilling to read and try to piece together your posts that just seem to ramble. When it continues despite others requests (and I'm not the only one who has made the request) to get to the point it leads one to believe it's intentional.

That said...

My response to your question was made with the many ways christians rip off pop culture and secular marketing in mind.

Seth Andrews has an excellent speech on this topic on youtube titled The Copycats: How Christianity Steals The Best Ideas.

People who claim Jesus is the "reason for the season" while they decorate their Christmas tree don't exactly have a claim on originality.

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First, it would appear you find it important enough to communicate to me your consideration that you find me something...or at least my communication as something akin to...well...would inane suffice?

If I am not being presumptuous in that interpretation, then at least we have established some ground of agreement.

But it is your apparent need to let me know "how you find me" that is far more important. Not that I am anything at all, but that need to communicate this...(and we have all learned it)...to speak to things of their relative importance to us, is really all we (indeed, any of us) are ever about.

Unless, of course, you are the only man who has never uttered to himself, or aloud, "I don't need this". But,
everything is grist for the mill. Even the thing that prompts us to "but...I don't need this".

As to intent...and intentions, those things are a little less easily discussed. For judgment of intent is a sticky wicket. Here we find ourselves insufficient to disentangle our own self from the thing being judged. We need...help.
So am I surprised you bring a posse? Why would I be? We all call for back up.

When it continues despite others requests (and I'm not the only one who has made the request) to get to the point it leads one to believe it's intentional.

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So, even in this, I need a care in judgment. A help. A helper. I too, call for "back up". Are you just another man who, not finding a "thing" to his approval, yes, even a thing like me (or at least its communications), must bring to bear a weight of opinion (this being the opinion of others) for some sort of reconciliation to himself or need, by that weight...to affect what he believes...needs change?

You speak like an intelligent man, so I would assume you know how dirt common that is. Maybe you have just let it slip for the moment, or had a temporary lapse of memory. (and that is always...most common to man when he encounters a thing he believes "needs change") And of all things, this is forgivable. We rarely see how our "putting the shoulder to the wheel" will turn out...ultimately.

One man conversations

atlashunter said:

I didn't bother reading your long drawn out post. You've been repeatedly asked to make your point in a more concise manner..... (and I'm not the only one who has made the request) to get to the point it leads one to believe it's intentional.

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I always skip them and have asked for less fluff myself too.

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance..." Well, you know the rest.

Pretty well spoken by a man whose posse couldn't keep themselves from showing up. They had to.

Every man will discover with whom they've been riding. After all, the Master has told every one of us "There is nothing hidden except to be revealed."

And, "... what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Even now some are saying within themselves "Should I say anything?"

Tell me again, now which post didn't you read?

Behold, you despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which you shall in no way believe, though a man declare it unto you.

No posse. Just people in agreement that long rambling posts chock full of incomplete sentences and incomplete thoughts are not conducive to having a discussion.

It's easier to say which I did read... or understand in less than twice the time it takes to read. I got the underlined one. That's the one I really read. Then I decided to try to give this short one a try anyway. It looks like you're trying to say that you are being persecuted, proving you're here from God, fulfilling a prophecy or something. That's the only thing I could pull from it. I'm probably totally wrong so I'll go back to skipping them.

Israel said:

Pretty well spoken by a man whose posse couldn't keep themselves from showing up. They had to.

Every man will discover with whom they've been riding. After all, the Master has told every one of us "There is nothing hidden except to be revealed."

And, "... what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Even now some are saying within themselves "Should I say anything?"

Tell me again, now which post didn't you read?

Behold, you despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which you shall in no way believe, though a man declare it unto you.

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I missed this thread at some point...it seems interesting but it is way too long to read through it now

TripleXBullies said:

It's easier to say which I did read... or understand in less than twice the time it takes to read. I got the underlined one. That's the one I really read. Then I decided to try to give this short one a try anyway. It looks like you're trying to say that you are being persecuted, proving you're here from God, fulfilling a prophecy or something. That's the only thing I could pull from it. I'm probably totally wrong so I'll go back to skipping them.

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Everyone is part of prophesy's fulfillment. Everyone has a role.

And I appreciate your responding, it speaks.

And I truly do hope that in your faith there is found no room for the absurd notion that Jesus Christ is short sighted.

atlashunter said:

No posse. Just people in agreement that long rambling posts chock full of incomplete sentences and incomplete thoughts are not conducive to having a discussion.

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You speak of christmas and tree decorating. You believe your eye has captured all there is to the Christ of God according to some practices tolerated, even with His name attached.

Another of you imagines he plays gotcha with those he assumes must surely have their homes festooned with crucifixes.

In your expression you say far more about what you see, but of course, cannot say anything about what you don't.

It's not the crosses/crucifixes/tree that you can see and consider yourselves so expert in that are of any concern.

It is the One who allowed and allows for them.

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

For he (God) has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

When you begin to see that, you will begin to understand grace. Such grace that allows for a thing to which He now allows His name attached...man.

One is either tolerated...or allowed.

Adam, where are you?

I suppose if there was a pagan living in the household alongside the Christians these practices might be called tolerance. And the numerous Christian copycats of secular music groups shown in that video? And the blatant (and illegal) use of trademarked brands? Is that also tolerance? Or is it imitating the worldly to try to make Christianity more appealing?

atlashunter said:

I suppose if there was a pagan living in the household alongside the Christians these practices might be called tolerance. And the numerous Christian copycats of secular music groups shown in that video? And the blatant (and illegal) use of trademarked brands? Is that also tolerance? Or is it imitating the worldly to try to make Christianity more appealing?

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I'm sorry, I didn't watch the video.

But I am glad that your interest in it has led you to ask that final question. It touches upon a thing in which I have also had many struggles with my own conscience which you may (or obviously may not) want to hear. But your question:

Or is it imitating the worldly to try to make Christianity more appealing?

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means far more to me than I could possibly tell you in a few words. That you ask it, and the way that you do (the very particular word usage) has volumes in it that:

#1 I really could not have expected from what might have appeared a quasi adversarial discussion.

and

#2 Are (or at least could be) to one man akin to the opening of a can of worms, but to another (like me...starving) more like the opening of a free buffet.

But, since you have already pointed out I am gassy, a windbag that tends to vent in uncertain terms and by uncertain happenstance (in which we also find agreement), I would rather not presume upon a new found kinship and abuse you.

But, your question ( from my point of view) is a singularly good one.