hobbs27
Senior Member
Sorry if this has been here before, I searched a little and didnt see it, if not enjoy, both sides should have comments on this.
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Darwinism requires faith in things unseen.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
My evidence would be dandelions. When I cut my grass the tall plants get destroyed and can't continue to reproduce. The shorter dandelions are saved from the lawnmower's blade and can live to reproduce. By the end of the summer the only dandelions still living and reproducing are the shorter ones.
I would agree that it takes faith to believe in natural selection. Why aren't there any big deer in the Florida Keys? Is it because God only put small deer in the Keys or did he let science do it?
Theistic evolutionism or evolutionary creationism requires faith.
I would agree that it takes faith to believe in natural selection. Why aren't there any big deer in the Florida Keys? Is it because God only put small deer in the Keys or did he let science do it?
Theistic evolutionism or evolutionary creationism requires faith.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Yep...but as the challenge goes...they are still dandelions.
I think the video shows darwinist that their belief is not science but relies on blind faith which is the same charge they make against creationist..very interesting.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I would agree with their charge against creationist requiring faith and not science is wrong. I don't believe science is as cut & dry as scientist and/or atheist believe it to be. Perhaps my belief in God intervening as he deems necessary into science causes my belief.
True the dandelion is still a dandelion and the tortoises on the Galapagos are still tortoises. Yet in understanding how God has allowed long neck tortoises to survive on the island with high vegetation and the short neck tortoises to survive on the island with only short vegetation doesn't show you personally the concept of natural selection?
You can't perceive any concept of natural selection beyond evolution? As a Christian who loves science I can't understand how my fellow Christians deny this process.
Just as I believe in limited free will, is it possible to believe in limited natural selection? Perhaps God literally created everything as in Genesis and then turned his creation over to natural selection, still intervening as necessary to make everything go according to his plan.
Everything requires faith. I recently took a trip to Orlando. I had to have faith that my car would mechanically take me there. I had to have faith that I would safely make the trip in all the traffic. I had to have faith that my wife wouldn't leave me for another man in Orlando.
I guess I could weigh all of the odds or I could place all may faith in God and not wear a seatbelt but regardless somewhere along the way I had to have faith. For me it was first with God, my wife, my car, and my fellow man on the highways. Could something go wrong? sure. It could be an act of God, random mechanical failure, a sleeping driver, me falling asleep, earthquake, or a weird process of natural selection where I acquired a genetically bad heart condition from my dad and had a heart attack while driving.
This would keep me from passing on this defect to future offspring and thus keep with God's scientific plan.
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bigreddwon
Senior Member
I don't think you understand the the definition of 'blind faith'.. Evolution requires no faith, at all. We have PHYSICAL. EVIDENCE. There is no 'gotcha' moment in that absurd video.
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Israel
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Were we to suddenly have revealed, "believer" and atheist alike, all the things "unseen" we both embrace, and live by, unknowingly and unacknowledged, we may all be shocked. Or surprised, depending.
One says (maybe, a little like me) "I live by faith in God alone" and finds, when someone may be discussing the latest Kim Kardashian episode, a blind rage arise.
Another may say Jesus is bunk, and yet buys a hungry man a sandwich, and never mentions it, not even ascribing it to an unseen compassion he could never prove exists, plot out, calculate or show in a blood sample. It was just there, to be done.
It seems a sobering thought to me at times, how the Jesus I speak of may be the only reason another man says Jesus is bunk, because I have never truly been able to show the real one.
The impediment to faith may not be in them, at all, but me. For this I need Jesus, not only his mercy, but his light...to help a man who, though not saying Jesus is bunk, may need some debunking of himself.
I think of the sheep and goats...the goats easily proclaiming "all" they have done for the Lord, their many efforts and reliances on things done, perhaps even "backed up" by miracles the Lord, in mercy, saw to provide.
And I think of sheep. When told of their reception, didn't say "of course we knew to feed you when hungry, visit you when sick, clothe you when naked...what, didn't you know we read the Bible? We even read the parable of sheep and goats!"
No, they did these things, not even knowing they were, and to whom.
I am a little sobered.
One says (maybe, a little like me) "I live by faith in God alone" and finds, when someone may be discussing the latest Kim Kardashian episode, a blind rage arise.
Another may say Jesus is bunk, and yet buys a hungry man a sandwich, and never mentions it, not even ascribing it to an unseen compassion he could never prove exists, plot out, calculate or show in a blood sample. It was just there, to be done.
It seems a sobering thought to me at times, how the Jesus I speak of may be the only reason another man says Jesus is bunk, because I have never truly been able to show the real one.
The impediment to faith may not be in them, at all, but me. For this I need Jesus, not only his mercy, but his light...to help a man who, though not saying Jesus is bunk, may need some debunking of himself.
I think of the sheep and goats...the goats easily proclaiming "all" they have done for the Lord, their many efforts and reliances on things done, perhaps even "backed up" by miracles the Lord, in mercy, saw to provide.
And I think of sheep. When told of their reception, didn't say "of course we knew to feed you when hungry, visit you when sick, clothe you when naked...what, didn't you know we read the Bible? We even read the parable of sheep and goats!"
No, they did these things, not even knowing they were, and to whom.
I am a little sobered.
WaltL1
Senior Member
Don't be too impressed.
Note his insistence on using "kinds". Like show me how a giraffe evolves into a mouse. Which of course is not how evolution occurs. But we'll ignore that.
And his insistence on "observable". Like I want to watch something evolve right in front of me so I can observe it.
Which of course is not how fast evolution naturally occurs. But we'll ignore that too.
And of course we will ignore the FACT that things have evolved. Including us.
His questions amount to "do you still beat your wife".
What is "very interesting" is those who don't bother to learn what evolution actually is and is not yet deny it.
ambush80
Senior Member
Gosh. I can't believe I'm asking this of you but could you elaborate?
I implore you to please try to use simple language because I'm not a very eloquent person and parables go over my head.
Say it like we're sitting in a john boat together catching crappies.
hobbs27
Senior Member
I don't think you understand the the definition of 'blind faith'.. Evolution requires no faith, at all. We have PHYSICAL. EVIDENCE. There is no 'gotcha' moment in that absurd video.
Maybe it is you that doesn't understand the definition of Darwins theory of evolution? It requires animals to change kind, matter of fact he believed all living things came from a single living thing. Monkeys and banannas are related...To believe that requires blind faith because there is no evidence of it.
The claim that Darwin's theory of evolution is science is also a bogus claim because it doesn't hold up to the definition of science, which must be observed.
This is not my field of passion and if you choose to believe in the theory of evolution, more power to you, but it does indeed require blind faith.
660griz
Senior Member
You see, in the real world, absent of mystical acts of a supernatural being, we must assume everything has a logical reason. When we don't know, we use the evidence we have to come up with theories that make sense. Other folks research and either come up with the same theory or a different one. If they come up with a different one, that theory is researched...and so on. Folks like me, who may be interested in knowing, may say, "that sounds good." Or, we may say, "I don't really care how the elephant came to be.
Guess what, there is no repercussion for not believing the theory of evolution. No he!!, nothing. Life and death are unchanged.
If the only evidence of evolution we had was one book, written thousands of years ago, about a theory that was introduced by a man 100 years before it was written about, where the first part of the book was dismissed even by believers, I don't think you would have a whole lot of evolution believers.
Another big difference is, the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have at the moment. Folks are working hard to prove it or find THE answer. Most everyone hopes THE answer is found and don't really care if the original theory is correct. We just want facts.
Finding out the truth does not scare us.
Guess what, there is no repercussion for not believing the theory of evolution. No he!!, nothing. Life and death are unchanged.
If the only evidence of evolution we had was one book, written thousands of years ago, about a theory that was introduced by a man 100 years before it was written about, where the first part of the book was dismissed even by believers, I don't think you would have a whole lot of evolution believers.
Another big difference is, the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have at the moment. Folks are working hard to prove it or find THE answer. Most everyone hopes THE answer is found and don't really care if the original theory is correct. We just want facts.
Finding out the truth does not scare us.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
Somebody didn't watch the video.
Israel
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To be examined without fear. To understand no fear does not mean that the examination will not show areas of blindness...areas with which I may be quite at home, but which may cause others...to trip.
660griz
Senior Member
I don't know of any debate within the scientific community with regards to common descent. Evidence abounds...if you look.
I guess you could say we have 'faith' they are not lying to us. I believe we landed on the moon too.
Whales possess internally reduced hind parts such as the pelvis and hind legs. Occasionally, the genes that code for longer extremities cause a modern whale to develop legs. On October 28, 2006, a four-finned bottlenose dolphin was caught and studied due to its extra set of hind limbs.[56] These legged Cetacea display an example of an atavism predicted from their common ancestry.
I guess you could say we have 'faith' they are not lying to us. I believe we landed on the moon too.
Whales possess internally reduced hind parts such as the pelvis and hind legs. Occasionally, the genes that code for longer extremities cause a modern whale to develop legs. On October 28, 2006, a four-finned bottlenose dolphin was caught and studied due to its extra set of hind limbs.[56] These legged Cetacea display an example of an atavism predicted from their common ancestry.
ambush80
Senior Member
StriperrHunterr
Senior Member
What I find most compelling is the commonality of genes in DNA between all life on this planet.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Funny, this too is the most compelling part of my faith in Christianity, as Christ stood on the mount of olives and told his disciples of the temple, not one stone would be left upon another.
Some forty years after His death and resurrection the Romans sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the temple with catapults of brimstone and fire burned the temple, later they completely disassembled the stones and even plowed the very foundation.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Something I find interesting is meteorites have the same elements found on the earth like iron, nickel, etc.
I guess every planet in the universe share these same elements. Might be gold in them thar planets!
ambush80
Senior Member
In my opinion, belief in prophesy is soft minded.
http://www.godswatcher.com/hister.htm
Many of Nostradamus' prophecies center around a mysterious person he referred to as "Hister". Nostradamus was known to play word games with the names of famous people. The word "Hister" is thought by many to be a combination of the two words "Hitler" and "Ister", thus providing both Adolph Hitler's name and place of origin. Ister was the Latin name for the Danube region of Germany where Hitler was born.
It is thought by many that Adolph Hitler was the second of two antichrists coming to bring much death and destruction to the world. Napoleon is thought to be the first of these two antichrists described in Revelation 13. These two Last Days antichrists were also described in the book of Revelation Chapter 13, where the first beast has seven heads (Bible Code:leads a seven-nation empire) and the second beast has two horns (Bible Code:heads an empire led by two military leaders). There are many references to Adolph Hitler in Nostradamus' famous book, the Centuries, that do indeed seem to represent actual historical events surrounding the life and career the infamous National Socialist (NAZI) leader. The following quatrains are the only quatrains specifically referring to "Hister":
NOSTRADAMUS QUATRAIN #2 - 24
Wildmen ferocious with anger, crossover rivers,
Bestes farouches de faim, fleuves tranner,
The greater part of the battlefield will be against Hitler;
Plus part du champ encontre Hister sera;
In armor of steel the great (army) will make the assault,
En caige de fer le grand fera treisner,
When the child of Germany shall heed no one.
Quand rien enfant de Germain observera.
CLICK HERE FOR OLD FRENCH DICTIONARY
The above quatrain describes the last days of the NAZI empire. Allied troops, fed up with the long war, are finally able to crossover Germany's rivers and make their final assault on Berlin. Hitler, behaving like an angry child, sat in his bunker in Berlin and refused to take the advice of his generals to surrender. The NAZI leader ultimately shot himself in the head, and his body was burned by his assistants and dragged into the streets where it would not be recognized. The charred body of Hitler's double was left for the allies to discover.
NOSTRADAMUS QUATRAIN #4 - 68
In a place very close, not far from Venice,
En lieu bien proche non eslignie de Venus,
The two (agree to) expand into Asia & Africa
Les deux plus grans de Asia & Afrique
From the Rhine & that Hitler will now speak for Venice;
Gu Rhin & Hister qu'on dira sont Venus;
Cries, tears, at Malta & the coast of Liguria.
Cris, pleurs, a Malta & coste Ligustique.
CLICK HERE FOR OLD FRENCH DICTIONARY
The above quatrain tells us about a secret meeting that took place between Adolph Hitler and Italy's dictator Benito Mussolini on June 2, 1940 at the Brenner Pass near Venice, to discuss Italy's formal entry into WWII. It was agreed at this meeting that Mussolini would declare war on Britain and France, and that Italy would initiate an African campaign. Adolph Hitler would then sign the Tripartite Treaty with the Japanese, expanding the war into Asia. Just over a week later, on June 10th, 1940, Italian forces began their attacks on Malta and the Ligurian coast of France.
NOSTRADAMUS QUATRAIN #5 - 29
Liberty is not able to be recovered,
La liberte ne recouvree,
They shall be occupied by a dark, fierce, iniquitous villain;
L'occupera noir, fier, vilain inique;
When the edicts of the pope will be overruled
Quand la matiere du pont sera ouvree
By Hitler, and Italy becomes a fascist republic.
D'Hister, Venice fashee la republique.
CLICK HERE FOR OLD FRENCH DICTIONARY
The NAZI (National Socialist) leader Adolf Hitler and Italian (Fascist) leader Benito Mussolini, act together to remove the influence of the Pope from all sectors of the nation of Italy. Mossolini was then established as the military dictator of the new Fascist republic. The freedom of the people of Italy was ended, and a state of martial law was instituted in all parts of the new fascist/socialist state.
StriperrHunterr
Senior Member
True, but elements on their own don't evolve. I like what the rest of the universe would seem to hold in store for us, but the commonality of life on genetic scales, but diversity in macroscopic scales, is truly amazing.
NDT had a cool metaphor for this, us versus animals and us versus aliens, that put the whole thing into perspective for me one evening.
Started out as a 3% difference between us and out next most intelligent cousins from the tree of life; apes of some sort. That 3% gave us language, music, Einstein, and all sorts of things. Less that 3% and apes are about as comparable as our toddlers in terms of intelligence. Take just one more 3% difference from us to aliens, and humans are nothing more than children groping around making fridge paintings with our understanding of the universe.
It certainly made me evaluate our true, versus perceived, position in a universe potentially filled with other examples of intelligent life. But that was also the point he was trying to make.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Ambush, I appreciate all the info you provided, but I'm not interested in Nostradomus anymore. His prophecies are and were false. The biblical prophecies however were true and I'm one of the few Christians that will tell you they have all come to pass just as they were told. I'm also one of the few that will say unbelievers will not burn forever. I take God at his word that through faith I will not perish but have everlasting life....to perish is to die, not live eternally in punishment.
The Bible, The presently active God in my spiritual life are the evidences I place my faith in, it is blind to others, but not to me. So I accept from others I have a blind faith in Christ. Those believers in Darwinism, have a theory and so called experts as their basis for faith..To me that is just as blind of a faith.....agreed?
The Bible, The presently active God in my spiritual life are the evidences I place my faith in, it is blind to others, but not to me. So I accept from others I have a blind faith in Christ. Those believers in Darwinism, have a theory and so called experts as their basis for faith..To me that is just as blind of a faith.....agreed?
