Christians and their government

Ronnie T · Apr 11, 2012

Have you come to terms with the implications of these verses.?

Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

mtnwoman · Apr 11, 2012

Ronnie T said:
Have you come to terms with the implications of these verses.?

Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Yes, I have...and it wasn't easy for a while, then 'oh snap' it dawned on me.
It took abortion to get me there...though....years of fighting that battle. Abortion is lawful....I cannot force someone to believe as I believe on abortion. I can tell them the negative/opposite side and hope they will make the right choice for themselves. Alcohol is legal...all I can do is tell people what it can do to you, because I know, been there. So on and so on....i've pretty much been thru the whole gambit......and thus my testimony was born out of that...my salvation and my deliverance, too.....it's personal. Doesn't mean everything that is legal is good for us....I choose not to partake....cigarettes for example. I cannot force anyone else to believe as I do though about it. I can tell them, but can't force them.

I don't park in the fire zone, even though some feel entitlement to do so. I don't park in handycap, I don't speed, etc etc. I try to abide by the rules because God convicts me to. He even convicts me to put up my shopping buggy or when I dig thru clothes I fold them back up. If I drop paper outside I pick it up. Not because I'm so good, but because God is so good and I've surrendered to His conviction to respect the right things to do.

If everyone would just do what they are suppose to be doing....everything would be so much better.

My first husband wouldn't be dead if he had abided by the rules of the campsite in Lawrenceville Ga, where his firearm discharged when he dropped it....no firearms allowed.

JB0704 · Apr 11, 2012

Everybody Christian claims God was involved in our revolution, but our revolution was in direct conflict with these verses. Makes one think a bit.......

Artfuldodger · Apr 11, 2012

Very good topic and points being made. I wonder what the people in Cuba feel about it?

Artfuldodger · Apr 11, 2012

JB0704 said:
Everybody Christian claims God was involved in our revolution, but our revolution was in direct conflict with these verses. Makes one think a bit.......[/QUOTE

And similar would be the Rebels of the Civil War.

1gr8bldr · Apr 11, 2012

But what if Saddam Hussein was your leader? Or Hitler? Does the bible only apply to Americans? Paul wrote this for the present situation. The Roman government would have been much harder on Christians if they feared a revolt. Paul tried to be sure they were viewed as peaceful. He asked that they pray for their leaders. This turned Roman wrath elsewhere.

mtnwoman · Apr 11, 2012

1gr8bldr said:
But what if Saddam Hussein was your leader? Or Hitler? Does the bible only apply to Americans? Paul wrote this for the present situation. The Roman government would have been much harder on Christians if they feared a revolt. Paul tried to be sure they were viewed as peaceful. He asked that they pray for their leaders. This turned Roman wrath elsewhere.

Great point!

hummerpoo · Apr 12, 2012

JB0704 said:
Everybody Christian claims God was involved in our revolution, but our revolution was in direct conflict with these verses. Makes one think a bit.......

If we look at the Prophets we find that when God delivered His message of impending doom, resulting from their disobedience, there was a message of blessing, resulting from there return to obedience (usually the return was by a remnant). It occures to me that the claim you refer to may be revisionist history.

So should we disobey in order to bring about the blessing after the return "May it never be".

gordon 2 · Apr 12, 2012

What comes to mind here are a few things like the two sides of God's will, and how governments are legit. But mostly the word "oppose" here picks my interest.

In what way would our opposition to governments be out of caracter with God's will. If opposition is driven by the flesh then one can assume that it is driven by rancour and discourd, violence etc... But driven by the Spirit opposition must be peaceful and is accounted not as opposition but something else altogether.

“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:51-52)

What Jesus and our Father have given to us is not of this sword. We do not count ourselves and others prone to perish.

Perhaps simply to love is not to oppose and ultimately our governments are us. It is our faith, our religions, our understandings, our beliefs, our dogmas that create them.

As christians do we oppose those who disagree with us or that we have disagrements with? I think the word is plain enough how we are to proceed.

hummerpoo · Apr 12, 2012

1gr8bldr said:
But what if Saddam Hussein was your leader? Or Hitler? Does the bible only apply to Americans? Paul wrote this for the present situation. The Roman government would have been much harder on Christians if they feared a revolt. Paul tried to be sure they were viewed as peaceful. He asked that they pray for their leaders. This turned Roman wrath elsewhere.

So this is a political statement made to pacify a tyrant?

How much of scripture could be explained away with similar thinking?

Artfuldodger · Apr 12, 2012

hummerpoo said:
How much of scripture could be explained away with similar thinking?

Yes i'm reminded on this forum that verse is not for you but _____. God was addressing the ______. Acts was written for the _____.

hobbs27 · Apr 12, 2012

1gr8bldr said:
But what if Saddam Hussein was your leader? Or Hitler? Does the bible only apply to Americans? Paul wrote this for the present situation. The Roman government would have been much harder on Christians if they feared a revolt. Paul tried to be sure they were viewed as peaceful. He asked that they pray for their leaders. This turned Roman wrath elsewhere.

Glad to see it when folks realize Paul's words were to the people of that time.We are blessed to have the recorded message that God sent to them for an example.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

We live in an especially good nation, in especially good times despite the poor economy, and poor leadership we currently have.We are spoiled, and not enough us "oh me", are on our knees praying for the persecuted Christians around the world...it's sad to say but too many of us are attending churches that preach prosperity on this side.We're giving up on eternal salvation, for worldly comforts.
One of the neat things about Christianity is that it thrives and grows among those that are persecuted, among the poor, and among the meek.I had rather have the Holy Spirit with me any day, than all the riches of the world.The Romans saw this in Christians, it amazed them that they would give up their life rather than deny Christ.They showed great love for the brethren too, and were submissive to the empire.
God will judge us all, but He holds to our leaders a greater responsibility.
leaders of nations will be held responsible.
Leaders of churches will be held responsible.
The Husband is held responsible for his duties over the wife.
Parents are held responsible for their duties over the children.
And vice versa, a child is held responsible for obeying its parents, a wife is to be submissive to her husband,we as Christians are to tithe to our churches...time or money,we are to obey the laws of our nation, and we are all to be submissive to God.
I fall short and do accept the chastisement I need to correct me at times.

formula1 · Apr 12, 2012

Re:

Yes, I have come to grips with it, knowing that this kingdom is not my own, yet I must live in it in a peaceable fashion inasmuch as it does not violate my relationship with Christ! But it does bring questions!

Does being subject to governmental authority precede the desire to change it in a peaceable fashion? Does it mean you deny your heavenly Father and your Savior Christ in order to satisfy the rule of your government? Does it mean you must not challenge your government when the rights of the innocent are infringed? What do you do when 'doing what is good' is in direct conflict with your government's stated position? These are the questions I ponder as I read this and I believe most are answered by looking a little deeper at the context of this passage and I will leave you with that context. Just take a look at the passages before and after and study them. God Bless!

Romans 12
9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.
17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13:
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Ronnie T · Apr 12, 2012

In my mind, I believe these verses carry a hidden message for us today. "Stand up".... "Get up"..... "Get back to the ministry of My will".... "Get your mind back on My church rather than on your nation".... "Or I'll destroy your nation, just as I did Israel".

Israel didn't destroy itself, God destroyed Israel. According to these verses, God can do the same to any nation.
At least that's what it seems to say. ??????????

hummerpoo · Apr 12, 2012

formula1 said:
Yes, I have come to grips with it, knowing that this kingdom is not my own, yet I must live in it in a peaceable fashion inasmuch as it does not violate my relationship with Christ! But it does bring questions!

Does being subject to governmental authority precede the desire to change it in a peaceable fashion? Does it mean you deny your heavenly Father and your Savior Christ in order to satisfy the rule of your government? Does it mean you must not challenge your government when the rights of the innocent are infringed? What do you do when 'doing what is good' is in direct conflict with your government's stated position? These are the questions I ponder as I read this and I believe most are answered by looking a little deeper at the context of this passage and I will leave you with that context. Just take a look at the passages before and after and study them. God Bless!

Romans 12
9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.
17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13:
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

I was hoping that someone would bring up the point that I highlighted. Rm. 13:3 says in part "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil." We can not always assume that the converse of a statement in scripture is true, but to ask "what if our good behavior is a cause for fear from authority?" seems a legitimate question. The temptation is to throw the commanded behavior out the window and adopt the ways of the world; which is to ignore 12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good".

Abortion being a favorite subject of many, I will attempt to use it. I think everyone reading this would agree that assassinating an abortionist does not conform with the teaching of scripture, but what about an orginized protest in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic. I drive by one several times a week in my work, protest that is. It bothers me, it conflicts with the attitude prescribed for those who follow Christ. Would an unmarked offering of drinks and pastry be more appropriate? I think so.

A more general way to convey what I'm trying to say might be to contrast your words "in direct conflict with your government's stated position" and 12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all" (hope I'm not taking you out of context). Doesn't it take more than a stated position for us to even consider action opposed to authority.

I guess it comes down to this: do we know more about how to change things that appear to us to be wrong in the world, or has God given us clear teaching of how to be "A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION"?

StriperAddict · Apr 12, 2012

hummerpoo said:
I was hoping that someone would bring up the point that I highlighted. Rm. 13:3 says in part "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil." We can not always assume that the converse of a statement in scripture is true, but to ask "what if our good behavior is a cause for fear from authority?" seems a legitimate question. The temptation is to throw the commanded behavior out the window and adopt the ways of the world; which is to ignore 12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good".

Abortion being a favorite subject of many, I will attempt to use it. I think everyone reading this would agree that assassinating an abortionist does not conform with the teaching of scripture, but what about an orginized protest in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic. I drive by one several times a week in my work, protest that is. It bothers me, it conflicts with the attitude prescribed for those who follow Christ. Would an unmarked offering of drinks and pastry be more appropriate? I think so.

A more general way to convey what I'm trying to say might be to contrast your words "in direct conflict with your government's stated position" and 12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all" (hope I'm not taking you out of context). Doesn't it take more than a stated position for us to even consider action opposed to authority.

I guess it comes down to this: do we know more about how to change things that appear to us to be wrong in the world, or has God given us clear teaching of how to be "A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION"?

Good points.
Keep in mind that the verses in Romans were breathed out by a man whose preaching went against the rule of the day, and got him whipped, beaten, chained and imprisioned more times than most martyrs of the faith.
It was illegal for Paul to continue to preach Christ. That was the order of his day (and is quickly coming on this present time as well).
Yet he knew he must obey God and not man.
Now, if one would suggest I'm saying we toss out the local and national rule of law, nah! they didn't get it.
There is a place for standing for the gospel and truth when unrighteousness is at the door.
Start with an appeal, and keep your case straight to the point, as Paul did as he appealed to his leaders of his day.
The bombers of abortion clinics are a bad example... sorry, had to say it in case this gets touted as righteous. The wrath of man doesn't lead to the righteousness of God. But there are "self" righteous peeps out there that believe that.
Back on topic with a question...

Can you think of other matters of governance that are against the betterment of man? Or evil? How is your witness for Jesus changing the landscape? (The question is just for consideration, not a condemnation)

formula1 · Apr 12, 2012

Re:

hummerpoo said:
I guess it comes down to this: do we know more about how to change things that appear to us to be wrong in the world, or has God given us clear teaching of how to be "A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION"?

I would say, if the excellencies of Jesus are proclaimed, that would cover these issues for the most part, and folks just might come out of the dark, just as you and I come out of the dark. I doubt if it will work any other way.

I still see Romans 13:8 as the culmination of the principle displayed in the OP. And even the verses in Ch. 12 I quoted. God bless!

gordon 2 · Apr 12, 2012

StriperAddict said:
Good points.
Keep in mind that the verses in Romans were breathed out by a man whose preaching went against the rule of the day, and got him whipped, beaten, chained and imprisioned more times than most martyrs of the faith.
It was illegal for Paul to continue to preach Christ. That was the order of his day (and is quickly coming on this present time as well).
Yet he knew he must obey God and not man.
Now, if one would suggest I'm saying we toss out the local and national rule of law, nah! they didn't get it.
There is a place for standing for the gospel and truth when unrighteousness is at the door.
Start with an appeal, and keep your case straight to the point, as Paul did as he appealed to his leaders of his day.
The bombers of abortion clinics are a bad example... sorry, had to say it in case this gets touted as righteous. The wrath of man doesn't lead to the righteousness of God. But there are "self" righteous peeps out there that believe that.
Back on topic with a question...

Can you think of other matters of governance that are against the betterment of man? Or evil? How is your witness for Jesus changing the landscape? (The question is just for consideration, not a condemnation)

When I think of the sacrafices the WW11 vets did for peace, especially the civilian soldiers of Florida who persued in their inferiour tanks the Third Reich's tanks and armour from the shores of France and Italy right up to Berlin so that the western world might enjoy freedom idividual and cultural-- in my mind their's make all other sacrafices since pale in comparison.

President Eisenhower cautioned what could come out of this sacrafice to poison our society--if we were not careful.

In the same way perhaps as a christian I can warn that the sacrafice of Jesus on the cross can poison our society if we are not careful. We can misappropreate it in our lifes. If we make for it a dogma that life is going to hades in a handbasquet and only personal get ahead salvation is were it's at, than I think we undo the will and purpose of Jesus for us.

As a christian it is my duty to point to the Good News of the Kingdom, a kingdom in the here and now and of the cross. It is my mission to point to the Holy Spirit given by Jesus for the resurection and grace for the Kingdom. Or a Kingdom of Grace. And that grace is the counter to opposition in the old man, it is the sword of our sacrafices--grace is. It is creative and freedom creating. It is tempered by peace in its workings and goals.

hummerpoo · Apr 12, 2012

StriperAddict said:
Good points.
Keep in mind that the verses in Romans were breathed out by a man whose preaching went against the rule of the day, and got him whipped, beaten, chained and imprisioned more times than most martyrs of the faith.
It was illegal for Paul to continue to preach Christ. That was the order of his day (and is quickly coming on this present time as well).
Yet he knew he must obey God and not man.
Now, if one would suggest I'm saying we toss out the local and national rule of law, nah! they didn't get it.
There is a place for standing for the gospel and truth when unrighteousness is at the door.
Start with an appeal, and keep your case straight to the point, as Paul did as he appealed to his leaders of his day.
The bombers of abortion clinics are a bad example... sorry, had to say it in case this gets touted as righteous. The wrath of man doesn't lead to the righteousness of God. But there are "self" righteous peeps out there that believe that.
Back on topic with a question...

Can you think of other matters of governance that are against the betterment of man? Or evil? How is your witness for Jesus changing the landscape? (The question is just for consideration, not a condemnation)

First I have to admit that I am finding it difficult to zero in on where we are in this discussion, witness the poor focus of my previous post. My intent was to focus on the converse of 13:3, "what if our good behavior is a cause for fear from authority?" I attempted to steer away from the radical anti-abortion movement to the more accepted marching up and down the sidewalk carrying signs, an activity for which I have not been able to discern a ligitimate objective (I do not consider scaring potential clients away to be a ligitimate objective; if there is something scripturally legitimate being said to those driving by, I don't see it).

Perhaps if I respond to more of F1's post:
Does being subject to governmental authority precede the desire to change it in a peaceable fashion? No. Peaceable being clarified as Spirit guided love.

Does it mean you deny your heavenly Father and your Savior Christ in order to satisfy the rule of your government? Never

Does it mean you must not challenge your government when the rights of the innocent are infringed? No. With the stipulation that the nature of the challenge is such that the challenger is obviously subservient to Power behind the challenge.

Perhaps we are to the point of discussing specific matters of governance; I'll let you decide.

How is my witness for Jesus changing the landscape? In the last three places I've worked there has been a definite change for the better; I will leave the eventual result to God. Wish I could be as certain about the churches I have attended. That is a real burdan because my greatest concern is for believers.

hummerpoo · Apr 12, 2012

formula1 said:
I would say, if the excellencies of Jesus are proclaimed, that would cover these issues for the most part, and folks just might come out of the dark, just as you and I come out of the dark. I doubt if it will work any other way.

I still see Romans 13:8 as the culmination of the principle displayed in the OP. And even the verses in Ch. 12 I quoted. God bless!

No argument with what you say, or what I believe is in your heart as you say it. You might note that I only pointed out a small quibble with you previous post. Perhaps my concern is best shown by what Ronnie pointed out recently about the divorce rate and support for the death penalty. We are called to be "a peculiar people". I don't believe that we have been left to figure out what that means; I believe we have been told what it means. I wish I were smart enough to quantify the NT for how much is said about how we are to treat people versus what we are to say to people. If the number of people who are saved could be determined by counting those who truly stand apart from the world in the way they relate to the world ... I'll stop there with that thought, I'm wandering anyway.

You are right, 13:1-7 is not a random thought thrown in between the verses you quoted. You would be correct to say that he who does not "Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax {is due;} custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor" does owe something other than "to love one another"; and he has not "loved his neighbor and fulfilled {the} law."

It would also be true that he who is not "subject to the governing authorities" has "conformed to this world" and has not "been transformed by the renewing of his mind" and has not "proven what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

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