You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.
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Abraham's salvation?
- Thread starter Artfuldodger
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You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.
hobbs27
Senior Member
I'm understanding you. I just don't know where you are getting that idea since it is contrary to all the scriptures we have looked at.
Maybe you can explain the nature of eternal life in a dead man?
j_seph
Senior Member
Which bible are you quoting? Sorry but KJV just seems a little more powerful
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
hobbs27
Senior Member
Its the Holy Bible, I think I copied and pasted from the NLT version because it's easier for some to understand. Either way, it translates the same.
I like the KJV also, used with concordance... But I don't think we're suppose to discuss our opinions of that topic here, so that's all I'll say about that.
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I sure can. It's called quickening. Abraham was quickened (Rom.4:17).
hobbs27
Senior Member
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
So Abraham had faith in God that raises the dead to life... It doesn't say Abraham was raised. In fact if you continue on in Roman's 5, we see that death reigned from Adam... But as the author writes at the end of Roman's 5. Now ...IE at that present time grace ruled giving them eternal life.
21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So you would have me believe that a spiritually dead person is able to believe by faith and remain spiritually dead with no change? And that he can have imputed righteousness?
hobbs27
Senior Member
Adam had faith in the day he died spiritually... He was disobedient but he had faith. Adam brought sin into the world and that sin ruled until the Cross when grace came to town.
You and I are saved by that grace brought to us by the deeds of our Lord and Savior at Calvary.... Until Calvary Abraham was still a dead man with imputed sin. Awaiting our redeemer to loose him from the bondage of sin and death.
Faith alone does not save... But grace through faith.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Hebrews 2:10
God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Acts 5:31
Then God put him in the place of honor at his right hand as Prince and Savior. He did this so the people of Israel would repent of their sins and be forgiven.
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
Savior? Can we change the scriptural meaning of what Jesus became on the Cross? Even if he was prophesied to become our savior? Can we bestow that title on Jesus even before God the Father did?
"He will save his people."
"Jesus became the Savior."
When did he do this? When he lived a perfect life as a man and suffered, as a man, on the Cross.
Luke 24:26
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?"
Then God put him in the place of honor at his right hand as Prince and Savior. He did this so the people of Israel would repent of their sins and be forgiven.
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
Savior? Can we change the scriptural meaning of what Jesus became on the Cross? Even if he was prophesied to become our savior? Can we bestow that title on Jesus even before God the Father did?
"He will save his people."
"Jesus became the Savior."
When did he do this? When he lived a perfect life as a man and suffered, as a man, on the Cross.
Luke 24:26
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?"
hobbs27
Senior Member
Daniel 12:2New Living Translation (NLT)
2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace
The Old Testament saints did/will receive everlasting life only after the resurrection.
The others everlasting disgrace... But either way they receive/d it at the Resurrection after the Cross.
2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace
The Old Testament saints did/will receive everlasting life only after the resurrection.
The others everlasting disgrace... But either way they receive/d it at the Resurrection after the Cross.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Is Everlasting Life the same thing as Eternal Life? Is not Everlasting Life an item in reference or pertaining to the body? and Eternal Life differently it is an item of the spirit of man, pertaining to the spirit?
I have always assumed perhaps incorrectly that these two items were very different. One concerned the resurrection of the body and the other the born again spirit ( mind, emotions, motivation, the heart which is from above) of the individual.
To eternal life we share in the life of God. To everlasting life the body is cured of the curse of death-decay.
????
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hobbs27
Senior Member
I can't reason why there would be a difference. If offered eternal life or everlasting life, does one sound more appealing than the other?
As for spiritual or physical life and death... What scripture do you base an eternal spiritual, physical dead... But then physical life meets spiritual eternal life once again?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I've had a similar thought in reading scripture about salvation. Sometimes it reads like physical salvation such as for a city about to be invaded by the Roman army and sometimes it reads like spiritual salvation from eternal death.
Parallels if you may.
Perhaps the same parallels with the eternal live and everlasting life. One physical and one spiritual.
Parallels if you may.
Perhaps the same parallels with the eternal live and everlasting life. One physical and one spiritual.
gordon 2
Senior Member
The difference , which I understand now ( which might be incorrect), is that all will resurrect to everlasting life and the last judgement, but not all will know eternal life or they will have rejected God in their lifetimes, which is the same thing and so their fate will be different than those who have cleaved to God in this life.
Concerning death. My understanding of physical death is in spiritual context. Spiritually death is due to the fall. That is I don't spiritualize it to mean spiritual death. In this case for me it means physical death or death of the body. ( If fallen man was to have everlasting physical life on earth well -- we and all of creation would be in a bigger pickle that we are now...etc)
So I'm suggesting that Adam and Eve had both everlasting life and eternal life originally. They lost physical everlasting life ( death of the body) but maintained eternal life. Some of their offsprings managed to hold on to eternal life, or life with the Father ( Noah, Abraham et al), but many lost this relationship with time. Some even had high places to unknown gods... They were not partakers of the divine, they did not have eternal life itself.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Gordon, I would like you to read this. Posted in a study group I participate in by JL Vaughn.
JL is a mathematician and studies ane text and culture. Agree with him or not, I'm sure you will gain something from it.
What was Adam's death?
Adam was promised the death for eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. What kind of death was it?
Some say this death was physical death. Some say this death was spiritual death. And some say this death was spiritual death followed by physical death 900-some years later.
Physical Death:
Some believe Adam was created immortal, that, had Adam not sinned, he would never die. Does this make any sense?
Before Adam sinned, he had to eat to live.
Adam was told to name the animals. He named the lion "does violence" and the hawk, "tears flesh." (Those who will protest this need to consider that their argument also applies to naming the woman.)
Some will claim that Eden had different physics. That Eden was safe. Yet, several places, we are told, were like Eden, or like the garden in Eden. Genesis 13:10. Eden was in our physical world.
And Adam lived some 900 years after he sinned. We have a saying, "Justice delayed is Justice denied." Or as Solomon wrote, "Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Ec. 8:11. Dying 900-some years after the event is not punishment for his crime.
If physical death was God's intended punishment, then the serpent was correct when he said, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When they ate, "the eyes of both of them were opened." If physical death was Adam's death, then the serpent told the truth and God was the liar. But the serpent was the liar and God told the truth. Adam died, the type of death God intended, in the day he ate. That death was not physical death.
Spiritual Death:
For those who say spiritual death, what is this spiritual death they talk about? A common answer is, "Separation from God." What is that?
Was Abel separated from God? Abel appeared to have a fine relation with God, until his brother killed him. "Enoch walked with God." Was he separated from God? "Noah was a just man, perfect in his accounts. Noah walked with God." Was Noah separated from God? They were all dead in Adam, for Romans 5:14 tells us, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned [as Adam had sinned], ..."
What really drives this idea of "spiritual death" is the interpretation that "natural" (in 1 Cor. 15:44-46) means "physical" and "spiritual" means "non-physical." (And because of this confusion, "non-physical" often means "other physical.") Adam's death wasn't physical death, therefore, it must have been non-physical death. That tells us what Adam's death isn't, not what it is or was.
Adam's death was not "separation from God." Spiritual death provides no answer to the question, What was Adam's death?"
What was Adam's Death?
To understand Adam's death, we need to look at what Adam was given, what was taken away, and what Christ restored.
1. Luke 3:38 tells us that Adam was a son of God. As Jesus was the only begotten Son, this suggests that Adam was adopted.
With that Adam was given all the things a rich man would have been expected to provide an adopted son:
2. The image of the Father.
3. The breath of life.
4. Land and wealth.
5. Work to do.
6. And a wife.
And how do we know these were lost?
1. The sons of the son are also sons of the father. Adoption into Christ is one of the themes of the New Testament. Adoption would not be needed, unless somewhere along the line, they ceased being sons. Adam's death in Genesis 3 fits.
2. In Genesis 5:3, Seth was in the image of Adam, not the image of God. The son was in the image of the father. In the New Testament, Jesus was in the image of God and we are to be conformed to that image. Without Christ, we don't have the image. Somewhere the image was lost.
(A whole theology has developed concerning the image of God. This theology is not based on Scripture, but is based on the assumption that all humans have the image and animals don't. I prefer to use Scripture, not vain philosophy to determine what Scripture means.)
3. In John 20:22, we see Jesus giving the disciples, the breath of life. Theologians have argued that the breath of life is what gives physical/biological life to all living creatures. But is that what it really means? Scripture also has God's breath. Is Scripture physically alive? God's breath doesn't give physical/biological life. It gives some other sort of life.
In Polynesian cultures, when a child is born, the father breathes the breath of life into his child. Literally he blows in the baby's face. Does this have physical significance? No. It is a declaration by the father that the child is his. When God gives the breath, He is showing what is His.
4. When Adam was thrown out of the garden, his land and wealth were given to another. In Rev. 20-21, we are given a city with streets of gold. The wealth is restored in Christ.
5. Adam's work increased. Is. 65:23 shows what this increase was. Adam became a servant. He was no longer working for himself. Eve was no longer producing sons of God. Instead Adam was working for his Master and Eve was producing more servants. In the New Heaven and New Earth this would be restored back to how it was in the garden,
6. Adam got to keep his wife. But she also lost everything and became a servant.
Adam lost all those things. Christ restored them.
The son was dead. The son became a servant. This was Adam's death.
Adam's death, on the day he ate, was not physical death. It wasn't spiritual death. God's adopted son, lost his adoption and became a servant. Those "in Adam," from that point forward were servants of God. Those "in Christ," are sons of God.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Interesting.
Yet, this is where my mind goes:
Rev: 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
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We serve an awesome God, and He serves us, and He says uncomfortable stuff like this:
John 6:53 Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
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In the account where God would have the life of the Adam and Eve limited, He gives reason. Gen 3:22-24
Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"
hobbs27
Senior Member
Whatever death Adam endured in the garden. Jesus has replaced. It couldn't be physical death because physically we still die.
Notice. God prevented Adam from taking of the tree of life by banishing him from its presence... Jesus brought us back into its presence, that we may have eternal life.
What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
How did Abraham eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood having died before Jesus shed the blood for him to consume?
My guess is by the promise. Abraham promised to drink it when it became available.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Question: "What is the meaning of the tree of life?"
Answer: The tree of life, mentioned in the books of Genesis and Revelation, is a life-giving tree created to enhance and perpetually sustain the physical life of humanity.
https://www.gotquestions.org/tree-of-life.html
Perhaps Adam was promised spiritual death for eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. He died spiritually when he ate from that tree.
With the knowledge he gained from eating from that tree, he learned that he needed to eat from the "Tree of Life" to gain everlasting physical life.
Then again what kind of everlasting and/or eternal life did he have to begin with?
Answer: The tree of life, mentioned in the books of Genesis and Revelation, is a life-giving tree created to enhance and perpetually sustain the physical life of humanity.
https://www.gotquestions.org/tree-of-life.html
Perhaps Adam was promised spiritual death for eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. He died spiritually when he ate from that tree.
With the knowledge he gained from eating from that tree, he learned that he needed to eat from the "Tree of Life" to gain everlasting physical life.
Then again what kind of everlasting and/or eternal life did he have to begin with?
