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  #326  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:18 PM
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Known to exist. Like Sandra Bullock?


Like the big bang?
.
I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
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  #327  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:39 PM
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If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?
God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:41 PM
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I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
Evidence either proves or disproves claims.
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  #329  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:47 PM
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I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
There is physical evidence of the big bang. For Yahweh not so much and thank goodness for that.
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  #330  
Old 12-12-2017, 06:09 AM
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God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
What the Hebrews learned they learned through many painful lessons...if any learned at all. I am convinced some did. One may not like what they read, may not agree, may not believe...but I do find one thing, what is called the OT is replete with stories of a people "telling on themselves" through the prophets.

Who can read and miss the warnings? Who can read and miss the recorded missteps contained? Who can read and miss (as others have said) the "warts and all" revelations? Stories of a people chosen, who in that state took it to themselves to think themselves now "hot stuff", moved by a headiness that led them astray time after time, yet thinking themselves immune to the righteousness of the God they proclaimed. And finding themselves, time after time as they themselves the ones rebuked for disobedience and pride, landing in serious hot water. Captivities, humiliating defeats, dread judgments for things not hidden, but written; adulteries, murders, deceits, presumptions and craven lusts in greed for power. Not hidden, not spun as some history of a people so noble and exemplary in their manner and pursuits as to make the world blush in shame. Plainly...very much in some ways, in almost all ways, as the world at large.

But the story/stories, almost compellingly honest to a self admitted embarrassment (and as such I believe merit consideration on that basis alone) also have the rebukes and chastenings plainly contained. Warnings. Warnings issued from prophets in a call to justice, against dealing falsely, against a people so swollen in pride at their "own chosenness" as to disregard the commands of the very One whom they claim "made them special" by His choosing. One can disagree with the claims, disagree with the instructions given, disagree with the commands...but I would find it hard to disagree that these things are found...a people preserving a history replete with all their own earned humiliations. In that, by itself, something speaks.

Paul has said (that apostle) these things happened that a people may be warned. Admonished. Be instructed. Learn. That God is not a talisman to be carried, not a rabbit's foot for possession, but Himself, possessor. The claim of "knowing Him" or "having Him" is not to the end of a prideful boast of immunity, nor to a capriciousness of will as though "this God" who made the ear is deaf, who made the eye, is blind. It is both, and always, the blessing of knowing, with the stern warning of not departing from Him who has given the knowing. Too stern? Unnecessarily harsh? Not if one learns. If one learns of a proclivity to be swollen in pride, a thing never far from any, never too distant a temptation as to be "now" easily disregarded.
One can go through those pages for a plain instruction in result.

Jesus appeared after a long silence. "The" people now under the boot of the most formidable, entrenched, and far reaching worldly power the world had ever seen. It is said it was in the "fullness of time" He appeared, in this protracted silence toward the "people of God" in now misery of occupation, misery of of what probably seemed to them the most willful, and capricious exercise of such power over them, that perhaps they were "ripe" for a hearing...finally, through that suffering ready to acknowledge, "God is the Lord", and there is no escaping His righteous judgment...for any...even "His own".

Yes, I see a growth. A growth in mankind, and a mankind chosen. Daddy is "the Dad" (with whatever attendant understanding of because) as in "Because I am the Dad".
Finally understood in some measure, by at least some, now made ready to hear more. His unquestionable authority is not needing to be explained, (as never it was)...but a people called, and even made for excursions against it...have shown the result. It is a full grown son sent as though saying to those "who would/could hear"..."now that that matter is is finally understood, there is no God but God...hear all of His will for man"

I see what may appear obvious objection. "Why those people for example?" "Why that grouping for exposition" "Why that kind of plan...at all?" And I likewise understand that for any who cannot "see themselves" in that group, of "those kind of people" who could take a truth and depart so far from it as to shame themselves, this probably means little or nothing. But for some of us we identify, we see how we have made of our lives an occupation of strong and brutal forces, in likewise measure now enlightened to the truth..."we can blame no one...but ourselves"...we have deceived ourselves in our own pride. Yes, some of us are born to cry out for deliverance from those things we have "rightly earned".


And to this end, and for us, Jesus Christ appears...in the fullness of time. Our fight against authority, The Authority, is both revealed as it is, our own rebelliousness...and the great gift given to help us lay down our arms against Him. By lifting them empty, to Him.

We do not wonder why men do not see their judgment coming...for we surely did not. We ourselves were all so "very special to ourselves" in likewise manner thinking that all we saw "happening to others" was surely not for us. But such things were all so precisely arranged for us, that we might even think so, and there discover our own pride...and then, when its dreadful bonds revealed in terrible consequences too great to bear, we might cry out. And crying out is as great a gift given that those who have, have learned not to despise it.
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  #331  
Old 12-12-2017, 08:08 AM
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God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. Why would that choice even be on the table? It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.
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  #332  
Old 12-12-2017, 08:53 AM
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yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. Why would that choice even be on the table? It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.

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but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect.
That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
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  #333  
Old 12-12-2017, 09:13 AM
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Evidence either proves or disproves claims.
But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?
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There is physical evidence of the big bang. For Yahweh not so much and thank goodness for that.
Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
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  #334  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:00 AM
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That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
I don't believe humans are perfect by a long shot, but I don't believe that we are born depraved and inherently sinful and in need of redemption, either.

We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
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  #335  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:04 AM
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That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
Oh look! Your deity happens to be among the discarded. Along with a great many other gods. Yahweh could be more yet falls short. To be expected I suppose considering his maker.
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  #336  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:07 AM
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yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. Why would that choice even be on the table? It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.
Well said.
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  #337  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:07 AM
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But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?


Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
Not 100% but pretty close to it.
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  #338  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:14 AM
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But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?
Give me any piece of evidence that disproves another god that would not apply equally to your god.
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  #339  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:24 AM
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I don't believe humans are perfect by a long shot, but I don't believe that we are born depraved and inherently sinful and in need of redemption, either.

We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
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We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others
I don't see how the second sentence is consistent with the first. In the first is exemption from any comparison, a thing is what it is.

But the second...well...comparison is again introduced.
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  #340  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:32 AM
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I don't see how the second sentence is consistent with the first. In the first is exemption from any comparison, a thing is what it is.

But the second...well...comparison is again introduced.
A thing being what it is does not make it incapable of being compared to other things that are what they are?

Humans and liver flukes have their similarities, but they are also different.
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  #341  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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I understand the concern that a loved one might get sent to the hot place if they haven't crossed the right T's and dotted the right I's in this life. If someone really believes that then of course they would want to help. What I can't wrap my mind around is why the believer can't step back from that situation and ask the question "Does my loved one really deserve to be cast in an eternal fire?". Never seems to cross their mind that anyone who might do that to their loved one is unworthy of their love and admiration.
Here is the crux of the matter. God is so Holy that He cannot look on sin. He clearly stated the wages of sin is death. That is not only physical death but also spiritual death as well. Which means separation form God. The only way back to a right relationship with your Creator, the Only True God is through the mediation of His Son whom He sent to be sin so that we may know life. So in answering you the answer is yes we all deserve to die, but God has in His Mercy provided a way out, and there is only one way. That is through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:42 AM
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A thing being what it is does not make it incapable of being compared to other things that are what they are?

Humans and liver flukes have their similarities, but they are also different.
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We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
Did I misinterpret the comparison of "better/worse"? If so...and you only meant distinction of kind, then I stand corrected. Might you see how a better/worse stance includes a judgment beyond mere distinction of kind?
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  #343  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:46 AM
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Here is the crux of the matter. God is so Holy that He cannot look on sin. He clearly stated the wages of sin is death. That is not only physical death but also spiritual death as well. Which means separation form God. The only way back to a right relationship with your Creator, the Only True God is through the mediation of His Son whom He sent to be sin so that we may know life. So in answering you the answer is yes we all deserve to die, but God has in His Mercy provided a way out, and there is only one way. That is through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
A god so holy he cannot look on sin yet knowingly created all the conditions for it to be. A god that declares people evil and then intentionally waits for them to become more evil so that he can destroy them. A god that hardens the hearts of men so that he has the pretense to kill the first born of an entire nation. Sorry but your claims simply don't add up.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:10 AM
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Oh look! Your deity happens to be among the discarded. Along with a great many other gods. Yahweh could be more yet falls short. To be expected I suppose considering his maker.
You do know I was speaking of the comparison men make among themselves? Neither did the original context imply an inclusion of any but man. But you have seen fit to turn it to your purpose, which is of course, something you are capable of doing.

I think you're swinging about as high as your arms can reach, being as specific it seems as you can, in mention of "name"...not simply finding fault in god as concept, but that very one. Of course you must. Above all He must appear as offense to you. Precisely because He is...above all...and there's a thing that just cannot bear being found to be not god over all.
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  #345  
Old 12-12-2017, 11:25 AM
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You do know I was speaking of the comparison men make among themselves? Neither did the original context imply any inclusion of any but man. But you have seen fit to turn it to your purpose, which is of course, something you are capable of doing.

I think you're swinging about as high as your arms can reach, being as specific it seems as you can, in mention of "name"...not simply finding fault in god as concept, but that very one. Of course you must. Above all He must appear as offense to you. Precisely because He is...above all...and there's a thing that just cannot bear being found to be not god over all.
He happens to be the most popular one in our culture and yeah the suck is pretty strong with him. The suck is stronger for the Muslim version of this god if that makes you feel any better. It's easier to find fault in particular gods when inconsistent and dubious claims are made for those gods than would apply to a generic god concept.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:40 AM
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What the Hebrews learned they learned through many painful lessons...if any learned at all. I am convinced some did. One may not like what they read, may not agree, may not believe...but I do find one thing, what is called the OT is replete with stories of a people "telling on themselves" through the prophets.

Who can read and miss the warnings? Who can read and miss the recorded missteps contained? Who can read and miss (as others have said) the "warts and all" revelations? Stories of a people chosen, who in that state took it to themselves to think themselves now "hot stuff", moved by a headiness that led them astray time after time, yet thinking themselves immune to the righteousness of the God they proclaimed. And finding themselves, time after time as they themselves the ones rebuked for disobedience and pride, landing in serious hot water. Captivities, humiliating defeats, dread judgments for things not hidden, but written; adulteries, murders, deceits, presumptions and craven lusts in greed for power. Not hidden, not spun as some history of a people so noble and exemplary in their manner and pursuits as to make the world blush in shame. Plainly...very much in some ways, in almost all ways, as the world at large.

But the story/stories, almost compellingly honest to a self admitted embarrassment (and as such I believe merit consideration on that basis alone) also have the rebukes and chastenings plainly contained. Warnings. Warnings issued from prophets in a call to justice, against dealing falsely, against a people so swollen in pride at their "own chosenness" as to disregard the commands of the very One whom they claim "made them special" by His choosing. One can disagree with the claims, disagree with the instructions given, disagree with the commands...but I would find it hard to disagree that these things are found...a people preserving a history replete with all their own earned humiliations. In that, by itself, something speaks.

Paul has said (that apostle) these things happened that a people may be warned. Admonished. Be instructed. Learn. That God is not a talisman to be carried, not a rabbit's foot for possession, but Himself, possessor. The claim of "knowing Him" or "having Him" is not to the end of a prideful boast of immunity, nor to a capriciousness of will as though "this God" who made the ear is deaf, who made the eye, is blind. It is both, and always, the blessing of knowing, with the stern warning of not departing from Him who has given the knowing. Too stern? Unnecessarily harsh? Not if one learns. If one learns of a proclivity to be swollen in pride, a thing never far from any, never too distant a temptation as to be "now" easily disregarded.
One can go through those pages for a plain instruction in result.

Jesus appeared after a long silence. "The" people now under the boot of the most formidable, entrenched, and far reaching worldly power the world had ever seen. It is said it was in the "fullness of time" He appeared, in this protracted silence toward the "people of God" in now misery of occupation, misery of of what probably seemed to them the most willful, and capricious exercise of such power over them, that perhaps they were "ripe" for a hearing...finally, through that suffering ready to acknowledge, "God is the Lord", and there is no escaping His righteous judgment...for any...even "His own".

Yes, I see a growth. A growth in mankind, and a mankind chosen. Daddy is "the Dad" (with whatever attendant understanding of because) as in "Because I am the Dad".
Finally understood in some measure, by at least some, now made ready to hear more. His unquestionable authority is not needing to be explained, (as never it was)...but a people called, and even made for excursions against it...have shown the result. It is a full grown son sent as though saying to those "who would/could hear"..."now that that matter is is finally understood, there is no God but God...hear all of His will for man"

I see what may appear obvious objection. "Why those people for example?" "Why that grouping for exposition" "Why that kind of plan...at all?" And I likewise understand that for any who cannot "see themselves" in that group, of "those kind of people" who could take a truth and depart so far from it as to shame themselves, this probably means little or nothing. But for some of us we identify, we see how we have made of our lives an occupation of strong and brutal forces, in likewise measure now enlightened to the truth..."we can blame no one...but ourselves"...we have deceived ourselves in our own pride. Yes, some of us are born to cry out for deliverance from those things we have "rightly earned".


And to this end, and for us, Jesus Christ appears...in the fullness of time. Our fight against authority, The Authority, is both revealed as it is, our own rebelliousness...and the great gift given to help us lay down our arms against Him. By lifting them empty, to Him.

We do not wonder why men do not see their judgment coming...for we surely did not. We ourselves were all so "very special to ourselves" in likewise manner thinking that all we saw "happening to others" was surely not for us. But such things were all so precisely arranged for us, that we might even think so, and there discover our own pride...and then, when its dreadful bonds revealed in terrible consequences too great to bear, we might cry out. And crying out is as great a gift given that those who have, have learned not to despise it.
The OT (and NT) are full of stories of events that have been proven to have never happened at all.
They are full of events that cannot be proved to have ever happened.
Whats left is not much to have faith in.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:45 AM
bullethead bullethead is offline
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But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?


Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
The same evidence that You use to disprove any and all other gods is good enough for me.


I am not 100% sure of much of anything let alone the existence of a being that is beyond my capability to understand. But, I am not going to pick one god out of the tens of thousands of gods JUST to somehow make myself feel good and hope that I picked the right one.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:35 PM
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Give me any piece of evidence that disproves another god that would not apply equally to your god.
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The same evidence that You use to disprove any and all other gods is good enough for me.
So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:27 PM
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So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
My disbelief is based off of lack of evidence. My disbelief is the result of whether it is more likely or not a god exists based off of evidence.
A sunrise is not evidence.
A feeling is not evidence.
A man written book that was done by mostly anonymous authors over thousands of years and its contents decided upon by councils is not evidence.
An unexplained experience is not evidence.

If any of those were evidence of a god that is to be worshiped then there are many gods and they all should be worshiped.

If there exists such a thing that is responsible for creating creation I am convinced that no major or minor religion has gotten their version correct. Especially if such a being wants itself known to its potential followers.
If in fact a god exists I am not capable of understanding it's complexity. If in fact it exists and I am supposed to know of it, it should be capable of contacting me in a way (that only such a being could) that makes it crystal clear and unique to me.

I am open to such contact 24/7.
A god would already know that.
If such a being wants me to know it, it will contact me. If such a being could care less if I know of it, it won't contact me.

Until then I have to go with what I am able to observe and educate myself about.
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:46 PM
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So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
And in a sense your disbelief has disproved all of those other gods. You have seen enough evidence, or better yet LACK of evidence, that has you positive that those gods just do not exist and the people who say that those gods exists are mistaken and their evidence is not really evidence that convinces you.
I go one god further.
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