Pretty stinging indictment on the Church in America

hobbs27 said:

You've probably raised a lot of money for your church doing this. Nice trick.

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SemperFiDawg said:

Trick? Hobbs, the more you talk the less convinced I become that you have any love in your heart except for yourself. You have built an entire deviant religion based solely on your interpretation of scripture, with the central purpose being to service your prideful ego.

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hobbs27 said:

I say the poor should not give 10% of their income in tithing. You still want to squeeze it out of them saying in one place it is sinful to not tithe. You have failed to demonstrate this sin you would cast on the poor as a new testament commandment... Yet I have a prideful ego?

Obviously you haven't understood my point. It's the opposite of what you suggest. You may give money to the church to help the hungry etc, etc....but at the same time a large portion of your money is going to fund the church building itself, pay for power, lawn maintenance, parking lots, roofing, AC... I know, I once sat on the board of a church.

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Miguel Cervantes said:

And so the conundrum for a Christian is exposed.

Where do you go from here? Taking care to not get trapped in the belief that your personal tithing to specific organizations directly linked to the people in need does not become a mission of "works" for you, subtly transforming the intent of your tithing to begin with.

When you take the intentions of the heart and tithing out of Faith to God out of God's hands and put your human controlling spirit over it, are you tithing out of Faith or the need of self-gratifying works? Where does God exist in that model?

If you do not have enough Faith that God will use the leadership of that church to put the money where it is needed to do His will, then where is your justification in your Faith in God's will and what he provides for you?

I fully understand your distrust of humans and how ornery they are in church councils, boards, etc. and the in fighting and conflict of how and where money can be spent. They are humans and subject to the ego's that come with their God given free spirit to choose to be so. It is the very reason I left one church that was sitting on hundreds of thousands of privately donated money earmarked for a building campaign, but refused to do anything with it out of fear that they would have to supplement it with loans and go into debt and fail as a church.

My parting words to the building committee was; You don't have to be afraid of the latter, you have already succeeded in that failure.

Is it our hearts duty to follow our minds instead of Faith in God's will for the money we tithe? If we truly give it freely do we let our distrust in man (church managment) stand in the way of God's will and His ability to bring those in control to accountability in order to accomplish His mission? Creflo Dollar comes to mind here.

Conundrums abound if we choose to control the path of our tithes. But then, if we tithe through that method we are not truly tithing as it's defined intent is stated, we are merely humans donating money. The spiritual difference between donating and tithing are worlds apart.

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hobbs27 said:

I say the poor should not give 10% of their income in tithing. You still want to squeeze it out of them saying in one place it is sinful to not tithe. You have failed to demonstrate this sin you would cast on the poor as a new testament commandment... Yet I have a prideful ego?

Obviously you haven't understood my point. It's the opposite of what you suggest. You may give money to the church to help the hungry etc, etc....but at the same time a large portion of your money is going to fund the church building itself, pay for power, lawn maintenance, parking lots, roofing, AC... I know, I once sat on the board of a church.

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SemperFiDawg said:

First. I didn't say it was a sin not to tithe. God did.

Second. Maybe you haven't been keeping up with the conversation, but our entire budget goes to missions. If you want to say paying the light bill doesn't count because people can read their bibles in the dark or the church can feed the hungry cold uncooked food then I will cede the point. I guess sitting on a church board is what made you so high and mighty as to think you are above what is biblical. Maybe you should try the pew if you can descend to that level again. Though I can't see that with your self proclaimed boasting of not being a follower and challenging authority. I give thanks to God that he keeps me humble enough to not be deaf to those who are clearly more spiritually mature than me.

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hobbs27 said:

Sitting on the church board didn't make me feel high and mighty.. It broke my heart. It showed me what religion has done to Christianity... It showed me how fake people are.... Always pray for your deacons or board members, they need it. They have to deal with all the mess no one else see's going on.

To your first point. It isn't possible for us to give 10% of our harvest to the levitical priests.. The Law is fulfilled and levitical priests no longer exist. Not to mention we are merely Gentiles and were never under the Law, so we don't have to be circumcised or tithe.

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hobbs27 said:

I say the poor should not give 10% of their income in tithing. You still want to squeeze it out of them saying in one place it is sinful to not tithe.

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SemperFiDawg said:

Excuses. You don't owe them to me. There's another that will hear them.

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hobbs27 said:

Yes, I have excuses. My excuses are Jesus Christ ' Death, burial, and resurrection that freed God's people from the bondage of Law.

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SemperFiDawg said:

Why am I debating with someone who has created their own counterfeit of Christianity.

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SemperFiDawg said:

Why am I debating with someone who has created their own counterfeit of Christianity.

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SemperFiDawg said:

First. I didn't say it was a sin not to tithe. God did.

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Miguel Cervantes said:

I would love to see that Book/Scripture & Verse.

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SemperFiDawg said:

Post #9 has you covered.

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hobbs27 said:

The fulfillment of the law through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is counterfeit Christianity? I don't think it gets much more orthodox than that.

Maybe you should have stopped....

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SemperFiDawg said:

I should have remembered I was engaging someone who's only purpose for scripture is to twist it to stroke his intellectual ego and ignored you which I'll do from now on.

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Miguel Cervantes said:

So you also believe in the cutting off of hands of thieves and stoning women to death whom you believe to be prostitutes? Why do you cling so tightly to the law that was completed with the crucifixion?

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SemperFiDawg said:

Tell me brother, are you free from the 10 commandments also. They are surely OT Law, or are you called as a Christian to observe it to the Nth degree by not even committing murder with your tongue. If you understand the Sermon on the Mount I'm confident you understand that his followers are called to the Nth degree because it's a heart/love calling. So you say the tithe is dead based on being old covenant. Maybe you are correct, which begs the question the rich young ruler asked. "What must I do to be saved?" And Christ answered with a Nth degree answer: "Sell all and follow me." I highly doubt those who argue against tithing based on it being old covenant , aren't doing so to swallow the New camel. If you have sold everything you own and given it to the poor, my apologies. Speed limit indeed!!!!

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Miguel Cervantes said:

If the Bible were to be taken at it's many generations of "literal" translation, yes. But that isn't the case now is it?

To "sell everything you own" was quite clearly a metaphor to cast aside your worldly ties and travel with him in his ministry. Otherwise His charge to John to take care of Mary after his crucifixion would have been null and void, even careless or contemptuous. For in those days a man must have a house and belongings in that house to take in and care for an elder, or even a wife, even when charged to do so by Jesus.

Now, we also have to make note of the differences between the moral / Mosaic Law and the Rabbinical Law of the Hebrews. All were observed pre-Christ, even post-Christ until the concept of his Commission and greatest Command were taking effect in the new movement called Christianity.

Sadly, many have yet to fully grasp the purpose of His coming and His sacrifice.

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