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  #51  
Old Yesterday, 02:11 PM
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Actually.. It's not used an excuse to not give. It's used as an excuse to not give by law. We in the NT give with a charitable heart and out of love what we feel we can give.

Not everyone should give. If a family has hardship and cannot pay their bills it's foolish for them to be giving away what they need to survive. There's no law requiring it.

Same family overcomes the hardship a few years later, they may be in position to give 30% and can, because there's no law saying they must give 10%.

I think Gem once said there was no church around him that he could go to or support because of their doctrine. I find myself in the same position, I don't want to be forced to deny what I know is true, and I don't want to cause trouble in any local congregation.. But I give, and I bet Gem does too. Not because of a law, and not to a denomination, but because Christ in us.. There's many people in need, some ask for help and I have no burden to help, some don't ask, but I feel like I will die if I don't help. Jesus is bigger than any organization... Jesus is bigger than any building.
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We in the NT give with a charitable heart and out of love what we feel we can give.
Bible reference please?

Quote:
Not everyone should give.
Mark 12:43
Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.

Bible reference please, because you seem to be contradicting Jesus on this.

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If a family has hardship and cannot pay their bills it's foolish for them to be giving away what they need to survive.
Bible reference please?

Everyone has hardships that we can use as an excuse to not tithe. We are to trust God to provide.

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I think Gem once said there was no church around him that he could go to or support because of their doctrine. I find myself in the same position,
This in itself would cause me to take a long, hard look at what I believed. You know the old saying, "If you been married 9 times it might be YOU!"

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Jesus is bigger than any organization... Jesus is bigger than any building
I have no idea how this is pertinent to the subject. You didn't elaborate.
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  #52  
Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM
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[quote=SemperFiDawg;10774815]Bible reference please?



2 Corinthians 9:7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


Mark 12:43
Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, Put in everything—all she had to live on.

Bible reference please, because you seem to be contradicting Jesus on this.
That's old covenant.


Bible reference please?

Everyone has hardships that we can use as an excuse to not tithe. We are to trust God to provide.



This in itself would cause me to take a long, hard look at what I believed. You know the old saying, "If you been married 9 times it might be YOU!"
Some people never question authority, and are just accepting of what they are told is truth. They are followers, others question authority, and everything they are taught.


I have no idea how this is pertinent to the subject. You didn't elaborate.

You're giving to support your church building, your denomination, and maybe missionaries of your doctrine... Jesus is bigger than all that.

JWs give money to their denomination...Mormons give to theirs, Catholics give to theirs.. But Jesus is bigger than all that! So to give to God does not mean one must give to the organization of their choice.
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  #53  
Old Yesterday, 04:21 PM
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This;

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Remember this:[d] The person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each person should do as he has decided in his heart—not reluctantly or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver
does not support this:

Quote:
We in the NT give with a charitable heart and out of love what we feel we can give
Quote:
Not everyone should give.
No where does it say or even imply NOT to give (sow). It encourages ALL to give based on their heart which should be much.

Quote:
Some people never question authority, and are just accepting of what they are told is truth. They are followers, others question authority, and everything they are taught.
A self proclaimed follower, boasting of questioning authority?

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You're giving to support your church building, your denomination, and maybe missionaries of your doctrine... Jesus is bigger than all that
I'm giving support to the Church, the living body of Christ........OF CHRIST. Open your eyes. Can you not see the difference?
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  #54  
Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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I'm giving support to the Church, the living body of Christ........OF CHRIST. Open your eyes. Can you not see the difference?
When a Mormon tithes to the LDS, are they doing the same as you, when you tithe to the church of your choice? Are Mormon's giving to the body of Christ by tithing to their church?

I bring this question up because I don't think Mormon's are giving to the body of Christ by tithing. I also don't think you are. You and the Mormon's have decided to give 10% of your income to support your organization, which there's nothing wrong with that. If you're going to participate in it, you should financially support it.Theres also nothing biblical about it.
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  #55  
Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM
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"Sacrifices" as in tithing 10% minimal?
In essence, yes. Whenever I am leading a small group or involved in a broader mentor group and the conversation comes around to tithing I merely sit patiently for all of the usual angles, tactics and banter in attempting to convince someone how it is necessary to come to a circular end. Then I challenge the "woe is me" "can't afford to tithe" "I have bills" blah blah blah excuses against anything scriptural.

My challenge goes like this;

First I disarm them by granting them a concession of the 10% being part of the law that was fulfilled and no longer required by God.

Now, they feel vindicated, but before I let their ego get too big, I interject that all we receive, whether by gift from others or by earning is provided by God, and ask them if they agree. Typically they will.

So then we shift the discussion to Grace, Mercy and Faith in God, and how many ways we show that Faith to God. One of which is tithing out of a show of appreciation for what He provides for us.

But they are still broke, have bills, yada yada yada.

So here is where I interject the challenge part. It is a 30 day challenge. I ask them to identify all of the things they purchase on a weekly basis that are absolutely not necessary for them to survive. Add up the dollar cost of those items and now use that money, whether it is 2%, 5% or 10% of what they earn and tithe it weekly. I ask them to keep a ledger of money earned and gifted to them vs money tithed. At the end of the 30 days if they don't have just as much money as when they started and weren't tithing, I will pay them the money they tithed back.

Once they accept this challenge I throw in the caveat; You cannot out give God. Understanding that this isn't a "the more I give the more I'll get" game with God, but instead the more faithful I am and more appreciative of what He provides for us, the more Faithful I am in advance for how good He is to us.

Once they understand where their heart should be in tithing and accept the 30 day challenge it is usually a sealed deal and they never go back to their old ways.

In 20 years of issuing this challenge I have only had to pay back a months worth of tithes, and it was a very small amount at that, twice. I am not convinced that their heart nor Faith were ever in the right place to accept who is really in control of their lives.
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  #56  
Old Yesterday, 09:12 PM
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But they were all communal.
but only one were followers of Christ
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  #57  
Old Yesterday, 11:14 PM
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In essence, yes. Whenever I am leading a small group or involved in a broader mentor group and the conversation comes around to tithing I merely sit patiently for all of the usual angles, tactics and banter in attempting to convince someone how it is necessary to come to a circular end. Then I challenge the "woe is me" "can't afford to tithe" "I have bills" blah blah blah excuses against anything scriptural.

My challenge goes like this;

First I disarm them by granting them a concession of the 10% being part of the law that was fulfilled and no longer required by God.

Now, they feel vindicated, but before I let their ego get too big, I interject that all we receive, whether by gift from others or by earning is provided by God, and ask them if they agree. Typically they will.

So then we shift the discussion to Grace, Mercy and Faith in God, and how many ways we show that Faith to God. One of which is tithing out of a show of appreciation for what He provides for us.

But they are still broke, have bills, yada yada yada.

So here is where I interject the challenge part. It is a 30 day challenge. I ask them to identify all of the things they purchase on a weekly basis that are absolutely not necessary for them to survive. Add up the dollar cost of those items and now use that money, whether it is 2%, 5% or 10% of what they earn and tithe it weekly. I ask them to keep a ledger of money earned and gifted to them vs money tithed. At the end of the 30 days if they don't have just as much money as when they started and weren't tithing, I will pay them the money they tithed back.

Once they accept this challenge I throw in the caveat; You cannot out give God. Understanding that this isn't a "the more I give the more I'll get" game with God, but instead the more faithful I am and more appreciative of what He provides for us, the more Faithful I am in advance for how good He is to us.

Once they understand where their heart should be in tithing and accept the 30 day challenge it is usually a sealed deal and they never go back to their old ways.

In 20 years of issuing this challenge I have only had to pay back a months worth of tithes, and it was a very small amount at that, twice. I am not convinced that their heart nor Faith were ever in the right place to accept who is really in control of their lives.
You've probably raised a lot of money for your church doing this. Nice trick.
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  #58  
Old Today, 06:17 AM
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Law will always provide a man a position to make a show. And this, most especially, to himself. It matters not whether the law is "give 10%" (or twenty or 30...or all) or "Speed Limit 50 MPH". A man can look to a "thing" and measure himself against it. This works very well for the man intent on showing himself, and before others "he is right". One could even say it seems very well designed into law.

And while among men, a believer in Jesus Christ would have to be very dense indeed to not (at very least) begin to see the most bizarre...yet natural sprouting up of a most peculiar sort...homo legialis. The lawyer. (No, not lawyers of the professional sense, but of the most generic sense, the more fundamental sense, born out of that which appears to come with the laying down of any law, a need for its "right" interpretation.)

For, apart from resource being made available to us of our own endorsement, how then, can we endorse our own selves know anything of our own selves? (Translation: "If there is not an ultimately reliable thing upon which I can depend to tell me what the "law" really means, I am surely lost in all my doings)

But I am not writing for the more (it appears) satisfied to tell themselves they are coloring within the lines...but to the few I perceive are actually suffering in a wonder encroaching into their own consciousness "have I, am I...really losing my mind?"

For these few, old touchstones are no longer availing. You know who you are, and you cannot help but feel you have stepped into a la la land of sorts, like ships perhaps ventured a little too far from shore, from old trusty beacon and familiar shoreline to help you know your position. In the present "out there" you feel as men talking only to the wind where words of intent seem to be carried willy nilly on the gusts, and you never see them "touch down"...or in, to what intent, to, and of you, intended. And you surely have no lawyer in your crew to tell you "it's ok, you're still doing things...right". In truth, you know you have no crew at all. Just you, and wind, and waves.

That you might prefer not being buffeted is all of laughter now...when it is found; your preferences stacked against wind and wave are most laughable. The "what I prefer" against the "what is" is absurdly seen infinitely small as to be less than useless to anything. Your own rudder, as with beacon and shoreline, is long since gone.

I'm just speaking to the wind here, sane ones...move along to your own tides. Only God knows where any of us are being carried.

But, you others, now questioning sanity "is it even a "real" thing???" or just a clever vanity whereby two men (or any multiple thereafter) may come together to declare another "insane" to their own purposes? That clever way of pushing the "odd man out"? Words like sanity mean little in a boat holding only one. One just does...what one does. And your speaking to the wind is past being considered odd, and if pressed by any consciousness to make an account, you are even past caring whether it is born of necessity or to some hope of availing...after all...you just do...what you do. That's all any man...ever does. You can't even answer to yourself to register any fixed-ness of position.

You know though. Don't you? You know. You agreed to cutting of ties. You agreed to severing lashes to land, to the familiar and erstwhile...sensible. Oh, yes, if it was in you for blaming (is it still in you for blaming?) you might say "it was the call", the call started all this...but you can't deny the call... its perfection of claim upon you is all too real in showing your complicity. "Yes" is yes here, and no is no, there is no other thing of "maybe". You do what you do...and in that is all, also of "not doing what you do not do". You cannot measure anything against anything in your doing. Unless you want to summon up the "all" you do not do. Here there is no shelter to be found...in trying.


Yes, the once little cabin of maybe...and comfort of "trying" into which you once secluded yourself for shelter, has also been long since carried away...by the wind. You really have nothing at all...to show. And you know...among men this is craziest of all to have nothing to "show"...to present, to display, that might somehow secure the right (in their discerning) to be. Even here. Especially here. "In the world".

"Come up with a reason we should let you stay"

Deny that "being" is enough, has all and always been only enough...to be.

"Present to us your intent of cooperation in being, and we will consider your application to be 'amongst us'." "Of what sort of work are you capable, what sort of production are you fit to?" Tell us. Now. "Show us your letter of intent...to cooperate." With "us".

And all you hear...is the wind...laughing.

And you know...you are out of your mind. And you are really at a loss to say whether it be of joy or sorrow that you must laugh along, it matters not now, to you, which compels you...the laughter is all.

The lawyer will try to tell you your estate if before accelerating to 50 you are breaking the law, and/or if venturing to 51 you are reprobate. Submit in mind to this and you will soon learn, must learn....will "have to" learn then, that the only fit place to fix one's eyes is always, and unremittingly, upon the speedometer, there can be no other assurance of "rightness". A blackened windshield in this can serve to keep one from the distraction of all taking place outside the vehicle.
Drivers, start your engines, and then "try" to not crash into one another.
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  #59  
Old Today, 07:48 AM
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You've probably raised a lot of money for your church doing this. Nice trick.
By "church" do you mean the congregational body of Christ? or a building people hang out in on a weekly basis?
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  #60  
Old Today, 09:59 AM
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When a Mormon tithes to the LDS, are they doing the same as you, when you tithe to the church of your choice? Are Mormon's giving to the body of Christ by tithing to their church?

I bring this question up because I don't think Mormon's are giving to the body of Christ by tithing. I also don't think you are.
Well just who exactly is The Church.... other than you?
Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I think the Church is the body of Christ whose only qualification to become a part of is accepting Christ as your personal savior.

Why do you not think my tithing is not giving to the body of Christ. The money feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shows Gods love and shares the Gospel to the lost. If that is not helping to advance and grow the Kingdom , just what is?
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  #61  
Old Today, 10:07 AM
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You've probably raised a lot of money for your church doing this. Nice trick.
Trick? Hobbs, the more you talk the less convinced I become that you have any love in your heart except for yourself. You have built an entire deviant religion based solely on your interpretation of scripture, with the central purpose being to service your prideful ego.
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Old Today, 10:18 AM
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Trick? Hobbs, the more you talk the less convinced I become that you have any love in your heart except for yourself. You have built an entire deviant religion based solely on your interpretation of scripture, with the central purpose being to service your prideful ego.
I say the poor should not give 10% of their income in tithing. You still want to squeeze it out of them saying in one place it is sinful to not tithe. You have failed to demonstrate this sin you would cast on the poor as a new testament commandment... Yet I have a prideful ego?

Obviously you haven't understood my point. It's the opposite of what you suggest. You may give money to the church to help the hungry etc, etc....but at the same time a large portion of your money is going to fund the church building itself, pay for power, lawn maintenance, parking lots, roofing, AC... I know, I once sat on the board of a church.
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  #63  
Old Today, 11:12 AM
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I say the poor should not give 10% of their income in tithing. You still want to squeeze it out of them saying in one place it is sinful to not tithe. You have failed to demonstrate this sin you would cast on the poor as a new testament commandment... Yet I have a prideful ego?

Obviously you haven't understood my point. It's the opposite of what you suggest. You may give money to the church to help the hungry etc, etc....but at the same time a large portion of your money is going to fund the church building itself, pay for power, lawn maintenance, parking lots, roofing, AC... I know, I once sat on the board of a church.
And so the conundrum for a Christian is exposed.

Where do you go from here? Taking care to not get trapped in the belief that your personal tithing to specific organizations directly linked to the people in need does not become a mission of "works" for you, subtly transforming the intent of your tithing to begin with.

When you take the intentions of the heart and tithing out of Faith to God out of God's hands and put your human controlling spirit over it, are you tithing out of Faith or the need of self-gratifying works? Where does God exist in that model?

If you do not have enough Faith that God will use the leadership of that church to put the money where it is needed to do His will, then where is your justification in your Faith in God's will and what he provides for you?

I fully understand your distrust of humans and how ornery they are in church councils, boards, etc. and the in fighting and conflict of how and where money can be spent. They are humans and subject to the ego's that come with their God given free spirit to choose to be so. It is the very reason I left one church that was sitting on hundreds of thousands of privately donated money earmarked for a building campaign, but refused to do anything with it out of fear that they would have to supplement it with loans and go into debt and fail as a church.

My parting words to the building committee was; You don't have to be afraid of the latter, you have already succeeded in that failure.

Is it our hearts duty to follow our minds instead of Faith in God's will for the money we tithe? If we truly give it freely do we let our distrust in man (church managment) stand in the way of God's will and His ability to bring those in control to accountability in order to accomplish His mission? Creflo Dollar comes to mind here.

Conundrums abound if we choose to control the path of our tithes. But then, if we tithe through that method we are not truly tithing as it's defined intent is stated, we are merely humans donating money. The spiritual difference between donating and tithing are worlds apart.
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  #64  
Old Today, 02:38 PM
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And so the conundrum for a Christian is exposed.

Where do you go from here? Taking care to not get trapped in the belief that your personal tithing to specific organizations directly linked to the people in need does not become a mission of "works" for you, subtly transforming the intent of your tithing to begin with.

When you take the intentions of the heart and tithing out of Faith to God out of God's hands and put your human controlling spirit over it, are you tithing out of Faith or the need of self-gratifying works? Where does God exist in that model?

If you do not have enough Faith that God will use the leadership of that church to put the money where it is needed to do His will, then where is your justification in your Faith in God's will and what he provides for you?

I fully understand your distrust of humans and how ornery they are in church councils, boards, etc. and the in fighting and conflict of how and where money can be spent. They are humans and subject to the ego's that come with their God given free spirit to choose to be so. It is the very reason I left one church that was sitting on hundreds of thousands of privately donated money earmarked for a building campaign, but refused to do anything with it out of fear that they would have to supplement it with loans and go into debt and fail as a church.

My parting words to the building committee was; You don't have to be afraid of the latter, you have already succeeded in that failure.

Is it our hearts duty to follow our minds instead of Faith in God's will for the money we tithe? If we truly give it freely do we let our distrust in man (church managment) stand in the way of God's will and His ability to bring those in control to accountability in order to accomplish His mission? Creflo Dollar comes to mind here.

Conundrums abound if we choose to control the path of our tithes. But then, if we tithe through that method we are not truly tithing as it's defined intent is stated, we are merely humans donating money. The spiritual difference between donating and tithing are worlds apart.
But it would appear you have already established the tithe as (for want of a better expression) the legitimate (?) means of the expression of giving amongst believers.

Though it is true, as with all things given...words, money, material goods, our only assurance to their "good" end is God. I am simply convinced the consciousness of percentages (if only to my own conscience) has an unsavory effect.
Yet, only God knows...if it should.


It can become (and perhaps must become...?) as the speedometer mentioned in my last post.

This is not even addressing the matter of apostolic instruction in regards to giving...what it is, what it is not.
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