The spirit teaches

Vectorman

Senior Member
I had the pleasure this week of reconnecting with an old friend whom I hadn’t seen in a few years. Bill was the pastor of my mother’s church and I got to know him when I accompanied mom on a short-term mission trip into Central America. I could tell right away that Bill and I shared a passion for evangelism, along with hunting and fishing. But Bill's real gift was ministering to men. He even wrote a yearlong bible study that helps give you a solid foundation and teaches you how to study the bible. I along with a few guys in my church took the study.

That was 8 years ago, but I’m glad to report that our men’s bible study group is still meeting today. After our year long study was complete, Bill was called to another church in a different state and left us freshly trained bible thumpers to fend for ourselves with nothing but the Word, the Spirit and each other to guide us along as we dug through the book. It turns out that we had everything we needed. Bill did a great job at giving us the tools to learn about the bible but he was a mainline denominational pastor who followed the party’s teaching fairly closely. I would say he leaned in the direction of reformed lordship salvation.

When our group of men really started digging into the Bible with our newfound study skills, the book took us in a completely different direction. The more we learned about what the Bible really says, the more we realized that our church and denomination were teaching things that were just not true…. some things were not even close. I came to realize that just because it came from the pulpit didn’t mean it was biblical. Everything taught by pastors, Sunday school teachers, TV preachers, etc., was suspect until you checked it out for yourself from the book.

I was shocked at how many things I had to unlearn, things I had believed all my life, things that I had been taught by my church and things that I had been teaching too. We even had an occasional church staff guy join us at our study once or twice, most of them ran away to never come back. One said as he left, “I believe what you are saying is true but you are going to get me fired if I start preaching that stuff”.

I believe that God put Bill in our group to help us to reach a point but He knew we needed to separate and go it alone after that. The funny thing about this is when Bill and I started comparing notes this week, I found that over the past few years, he had reached many of the same conclusions that we had about biblical topics. He had to unlearn many things just as we did.

You see, it’s the Spirit’s job to teach, and He teaches the same truth regardless of what state you are in or how many miles you are away from each other. Our job is to be teachable. Martin Luther said the Christian life is a life of repentance. What he was saying is that you must allow the Word and the Spirit to change your mind about what you believe to be biblical truth. The problem today is that most people, especially church ministers and teachers think they know the bible so well that they can’t be taught anything. They are unteachable. I’ll leave you with a bible verse.

Proverbs 26:12(NIV)
Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
It is the saddest reality of modern organized religion. You are to be kept in line. Limited in knowledge, and never question certain things.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I had the pleasure this week of reconnecting with an old friend whom I hadn’t seen in a few years. Bill was the pastor of my mother’s church and I got to know him when I accompanied mom on a short-term mission trip into Central America. I could tell right away that Bill and I shared a passion for evangelism, along with hunting and fishing. But Bill's real gift was ministering to men. He even wrote a yearlong bible study that helps give you a solid foundation and teaches you how to study the bible. I along with a few guys in my church took the study.

That was 8 years ago, but I’m glad to report that our men’s bible study group is still meeting today. After our year long study was complete, Bill was called to another church in a different state and left us freshly trained bible thumpers to fend for ourselves with nothing but the Word, the Spirit and each other to guide us along as we dug through the book. It turns out that we had everything we needed. Bill did a great job at giving us the tools to learn about the bible but he was a mainline denominational pastor who followed the party’s teaching fairly closely. I would say he leaned in the direction of reformed lordship salvation.

When our group of men really started digging into the Bible with our newfound study skills, the book took us in a completely different direction. The more we learned about what the Bible really says, the more we realized that our church and denomination were teaching things that were just not true…. some things were not even close. I came to realize that just because it came from the pulpit didn’t mean it was biblical. Everything taught by pastors, Sunday school teachers, TV preachers, etc., was suspect until you checked it out for yourself from the book.

I was shocked at how many things I had to unlearn, things I had believed all my life, things that I had been taught by my church and things that I had been teaching too. We even had an occasional church staff guy join us at our study once or twice, most of them ran away to never come back. One said as he left, “I believe what you are saying is true but you are going to get me fired if I start preaching that stuff”.

I believe that God put Bill in our group to help us to reach a point but He knew we needed to separate and go it alone after that. The funny thing about this is when Bill and I started comparing notes this week, I found that over the past few years, he had reached many of the same conclusions that we had about biblical topics. He had to unlearn many things just as we did.

You see, it’s the Spirit’s job to teach, and He teaches the same truth regardless of what state you are in or how many miles you are away from each other. Our job is to be teachable. Martin Luther said the Christian life is a life of repentance. What he was saying is that you must allow the Word and the Spirit to change your mind about what you believe to be biblical truth. The problem today is that most people, especially church ministers and teachers think they know the bible so well that they can’t be taught anything. They are unteachable. I’ll leave you with a bible verse.

Proverbs 26:12(NIV)
Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.


We live in a world of false news and false church? Spinning the wheel of fortune today is peppered with Spin Again blocks?

Quote: The problem today is that most people, especially church ministers and teachers think they know the bible so well that they can’t be taught anything. They are unteachable.

This is a somewhat of a blanket statement. But I'm not sure it means what is means. It might have been meant to mean something else than it means? Maybe?

I don't know how this could be fact checked?>>>> Does thinking that you know the bible well make one unteachable?

And this is kind of an interesting statement.


Quote : Martin Luther said the Christian life is a life of repentance.

Interesting in that I have to wonder when the priest said this? Was it before or after he married the nun? Context?

In any case, I'm impressed by the speed of your learning. I have to wonder that at the rate of your conclusions on church things and teaching that if in 8 more yrs you're still teachable?

Could you be a bit more specific about a couple of things that you have come to unlearn?
 
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Vectorman

Senior Member
"most people" is a blanket statement and I should have narrowed that group.

Some of the things that I had been taught and needed to unlearn were things like repentance for salvation, the sinners prayer, tithing, baptism, signs of spiritual maturity, and many others. You see there was a time in my life when I thought of myself as a mature christian but after a true study of the Bible I realized that I was not, because most things that I believed to be biblical truth were not learned from the book, it was things taught to me by pastors and sunday school teachers. This bible study which continues today has revealed that many of my (previous) denominations positions were just biblically incorrect.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
"most people" is a blanket statement and I should have narrowed that group.

Some of the things that I had been taught and needed to unlearn were things like repentance for salvation, the sinners prayer, tithing, baptism, signs of spiritual maturity, and many others. You see there was a time in my life when I thought of myself as a mature christian but after a true study of the Bible I realized that I was not, because most things that I believed to be biblical truth were not learned from the book, it was things taught to me by pastors and sunday school teachers. This bible study which continues today has revealed that many of my (previous) denominations positions were just biblically incorrect.

So what makes your study such a "true study" compared to another's study? Is it not the case that most think their study is the true one?

If I wanted an equally "true study" of scripture as you seem to have found how would I go about this?

What is the most import true position for you that the spirit which teaches has thought you?

By the way I can see that bible study can show that one's understanding of denominational positions are incorrect; that is a previously held understanding of the position. Is this not the case with our understanding of many and varied christian positions? We assume we understand some positions when we don't. In some cases it is not the positions that are at fault, but our individual understandings or misunderstanding. And these misunderstandings can be, yes, spurred along by our elders...
 
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Vectorman

Senior Member
It's very simple, we studied the book, not someone's interpretation off the book. It's like fishing, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. (or he will be broke for the rest of his life because of buying fishing gear!)

I think that many people today want a church pastor or elder to feed them on sunday morning, to tell them what to believe, it's very comfortable being spoon fed. To have every story in the Bible turned into some morality lesson that may or may not have anything to do with the context of what's going on.

Instead elders should be training people how to study the Bible for themselves and let them dig out the truth that's in it. To figure out who's talking, to whom are they talking to and what they are talking about. To helping them understand that "context is king" when studying the Bible. To show them that if I'm reading about discipleship and think it's talking about salvation how it will cause confusion in my understanding of the word. To help them understand that the promises to Israel are not promises to the church. To help them see that Paul's gospel of grace is not the same as John's gospel of the kingdom. etc etc.

The point of my initial post was not a statement that I have figured out biblical truth and everybody else is wrong. The point was that I allowed, like many others, other people to do my Bible study for me. I had believed my pastors, s/s teachers, denomination's teaching instead of digging it out for myself. Many times they are right, many times they are wrong, but we ourselves are responsible for knowing truth. I can't use the excuse " but the pastor told me __________ ".

For this I don't need to defend or justify myself to you or anyone. So I'm finished doing that. Good day.

Vectorman
 

centerpin fan

Senior Member
Some of the things that I had been taught and needed to unlearn were things like repentance for salvation, the sinners prayer, tithing, baptism, signs of spiritual maturity, and many others.

Spend ten minutes searching this forum, and you will see thread after thread where people disagree on every one of those topics. These are people no less committed to Bible study than you.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I don't think it's the topics he is talking about more than the learning technique. While it's OK to follow your denomination and it's elders, one should learn on their own as well.
It would benefit elders to teach their congregations to do so as well.
Vectorman was not saying the things he has found out on his own are what you should believe but to at least form your own beliefs based on spiritual reading yourself.
To take off your denomination goggles and read the scripture as an individual guided by the Holy Spirit himself.

I think ya'll might have misread him and then him misreading ya'll. Perhaps?

I welcome a fresh voice so hopefully Vectorman will stick around.
 
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NE GA Pappy

Mr. Pappy
Some of the things that I had been taught and needed to unlearn were things like repentance for salvation, the sinners prayer, tithing, baptism, signs of spiritual maturity, and many others.

Why don't you take them one at a time and help us understand more of what you are talking about.

What did you church teach about repentance for salvation, and what have you learned from your study?

Maybe you could go down the list like that, and we could discuss it more in depth.
 

formula1

Daily Bible Verse Organizer
Re:

Indeed the Holy Spirit does teach but we all better be sure that we know how to listen. Otherwise, we might be better off following the examples of our elders and leaders in the church!
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
To me repentance for salvation means that I couldn't quit sinning and save myself. Therefore I repented from that way of thinking and turned to God's way. God's way was that we can't quit sinning and therefore needed salvation in the form of a Messiah.
If I could have saved myself, then I wouldn't have needed Jesus to die for my sins. I would have just, quit sinning.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
To me repentance for salvation means that I couldn't quit sinning and save myself. Therefore I repented from that way of thinking and turned to God's way. God's way was that we can't quit sinning and therefore needed salvation in the form of a Messiah.
If I could have saved myself, then I wouldn't have needed Jesus to die for my sins. I would have just, quit sinning.

Even though you can't stop, you do still try to ........ right?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I don't think it's the topics he is talking about more than the learning technique. While it's OK to follow your denomination and it's elders, one should learn on there own as well.
It would benefit elders to teach their congregations to do so as well.
Vectorman was not saying the things he has found out on his own are what you should believe but to at least form your own beliefs based on spiritual reading yourself.
To take off your denomination goggles and read the scripture as an individual guided by the Holy Spirit himself.

I think ya'll might have misread him and then him misreading ya'll. Perhaps?

I welcome a fresh voice so hopefully Vectorman will stick around.[/QUOTE]
----------------------------



I agree Art. Vectorman needs to witness here. And I welcome a fresh voice as you do.

So don't run off Vectorman. You have valid points... that Christians need to understand I hope.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
Spend ten minutes searching this forum, and you will see thread after thread where people disagree on every one of those topics. These are people no less committed to Bible study than you.

Good point, I believe that it's ok to disagree about interpretation of scripture, I also believe that if we both are searching for truth that sooner or later we will arrive at the same position. Many, many times I have walked out of my Bible study group with a different opinion than when I walked in. We have to allow scripture to change our mind. If I walk into a Bible study group with the intention of proving to everybody else that I'm right and they're wrong on a biblical topic that I'm not only wasting my time but also everybody else's too. That's the reason that we should be meeting with others and "reasoning from the scriptures" discussing why we believe what we do. Asking them what verses they use to support their position, being willing to look at it from their direction, because they may be right!!

Vectorman
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Even though you can't stop, you do still try to ........ right?

But of course;

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Could be like "discipleship" and salvation. Perhaps repentance from sin is the first step of discipleship. It's the fruit of salvation, not the cause.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
It's the fruit of salvation, not the cause.

Exactly!! When people tell me that you have to repent of your sins to be saved, I ask them which ones(sins). If repentance is a requirement for salvation then the answer has to be ALL of them.......... well who has done that?

I think that maybe we focus on sin too much in the new testament church. Paul said that everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial. If we focus on loving God and loving our neighbor and always being prepared to share the hope that we have to someone who wants to hear it. The sin issue will take care of itself.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Exactly!! When people tell me that you have to repent of your sins to be saved, I ask them which ones(sins). If repentance is a requirement for salvation then the answer has to be ALL of them.......... well who has done that?

I think that maybe we focus on sin too much in the new testament church. Paul said that everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial. If we focus on loving God and loving our neighbor and always being prepared to share the hope that we have to someone who wants to hear it. The sin issue will take care of itself.

Yes, just follow the Great Commandment and the others will be included. Love will supersede discipleship. The rule book becomes less important once it's placed in our hearts.
 

Israel

BANNED
I don't think it's the topics he is talking about more than the learning technique. While it's OK to follow your denomination and it's elders, one should learn on there own as well.
It would benefit elders to teach their congregations to do so as well.
Vectorman was not saying the things he has found out on his own are what you should believe but to at least form your own beliefs based on spiritual reading yourself.
To take off your denomination goggles and read the scripture as an individual guided by the Holy Spirit himself.

I think ya'll might have misread him and then him misreading ya'll. Perhaps?

I welcome a fresh voice so hopefully Vectorman will stick around.[/QUOTE]
----------------------------



I agree Art. Vectorman needs to witness here. And I welcome a fresh voice as you do.

So don't run off Vectorman. You have valid points... that Christians need to understand I hope.

While it's OK to follow your denomination and it's elders...


What is speaking this?
 
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