Thou Shall Not Kill......Unless

TheBishop

Senior Member
I think he worded it in a way that makes it confusing. Any way I read it though, I find it wrong.

I found it somewhat confusing myself.
 

hummdaddy

Senior Member
this is interesting , but nobody wants to play....i think you have them on the ropes for a knock out punch
 

rjcruiser

Senior Member
I want AN answer. So far all I have gotten is deflection, and for me to go find my own answer. I want to hear other peoples thoughts. If its says "Thou Shall Not Kill" how we can justify war, especially the ones of late, and the taking of someones life?

I don't want to hear what Moses said, I want to hear what you THINK!

Okay....but as far as the 10 Cs go, I think I answered it already above.

As many have written in other threads before, you can pull a bunch of verses out of the Bible to make them say whatever you want. But in the end, context is King. Know the author, know the audience, know the setting...it makes it much easier to understand.

But...to the original question...the original post...

Can killing be justified or only rationalized?

Justified in the case of self defense and in the case of punishment for certain crimes.

Your stance, btw, would fit in well with the Mennonites.

this is interesting , but nobody wants to play....i think you have them on the ropes for a knock out punch

:rolleyes:
 

Asath

Senior Member
Wait a second –

Can we rewind?

In Post #4, TheBishop highlighted a previous response by centerpin in red. Are these centerpin’s words, in red type, or were they inserted into the post by TheBishop?

(I’m just asking, since it is very confusing and impossible to respond to – once again, this is why I agree that the ‘Quote’ function is not reliable and needs to be either tightened up or abandoned. Many others have made the same point – if the function allows the options of editing or inserting into the ‘quote,’ then it is not a quote at all, but merely a convenience for the lazy, and a distraction to the other posters, who cannot reliably know just who said what.)

So, that said:

“Focus on who the 10 C's were written to as well as focus on the remaining writings of Moses that expand on the 10 c's.”

“There's an answer in my op...you just don't want to have to search to find.”

So the insistence is that if only one searches hard enough to find something that doesn’t exist, they will then agree? Nice try, but if you want to assert that there was a person named Moses, and that such a person ever wrote anything at all, you’ll have to prove that by using at least one reliable source other than the OT itself, and that simply can’t be done. Further, you are deliberately and rather ham-handedly trying to deflect the point to only your own, ignoring it, essentially, instead of confronting it.

The point is simple – ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill.’ Period. There is no embroidery around the point, as written in the GOOD BOOK. Problem is, the same Book had already described the killing of quite a few folks, and most had been killed by the same fella who said not to do that. Then it goes on to give, in both the OT AND the NT, plenty more killing and plenty of reasons why one MUST. That too is Commanded.

So FOCUS, less on yourself than on the Book in question. Search, and YOU will find.

“The 10 Cs were written for the Jews....to keep them separate from those that lived around them...along with a few other reasons....but that is the basics. Christ told the Pharisees what the most important command was....He then followed it up with a close second. Do those 2 and you'll be fine.”

WOW! Anyone else want that one? If not, I’ll understand . . .

Then THIS!: “The 10 commandments were not intended for anyone living today. They were written and used in a different period of time for a particular people.”

Well then, THAT was easy! Presumably someone, in some Church someplace, has a NEW set of Commandments that ARE intended for those of us living TODAY. Wait – Don’t tell me! Do they start with something like – ‘Thou Shalt Give Thy Money To The Pretenders’?

Then more! “Justified in the case of . . . “

Really? Where the heck in the simple Command was wiggle room for ‘justifications’ left open? CONTEXT? Be serious. Are you actually putting forward the contention that one of the most central bits of ‘moral’ teaching in the Christian Holy Bible was only meant to apply to the ancient Jewish people?

Think harder. Read the stinking BOOK! Not long after that feel good part about how thou shalt not kill, Ecclesiastes proposed that there was a ‘time to kill.’ Who did that apply to?

C’mon.
 

TheBishop

Senior Member
The part in red was my response to the first point.
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
I want AN answer. So far all I have gotten is deflection, and for me to go find my own answer. I want to hear other peoples thoughts. If its says "Thou Shall Not Kill" how we can justify war, especially the ones of late, and the taking of someones life?

I don't want to hear what Moses said, I want to hear what you THINK!

I wouldn't kill anyone, or any animal....would you? And I want AN answer!!
 

TheBishop

Senior Member
I wouldn't kill anyone, or any animal....would you? And I want AN answer!!

I don't have a problem with the taking of life when necessary.
 
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Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
this is interesting , but nobody wants to play....i think you have them on the ropes for a knock out punch

Much of the dialogue from the atheist side of the isle make me often wonder if Bill Maher has become a member.
That's why many of us won't get into a lengthy discussion any more than we do.

Your smug comments and caricatures that exaggerate your negative attitudes towards God make us not want to share internet space with you.

I know, I know, you got a comeback now, don't you. We're this, or that, and we're worse than you........
It's just not interesting.

:huh:
 

hummdaddy

Senior Member
Much of the dialogue from the atheist side of the isle make me often wonder if Bill Maher has become a member.
That's why many of us won't get into a lengthy discussion any more than we do.

Your smug comments and caricatures that exaggerate your negative attitudes towards God make us not want to share internet space with you.

I know, I know, you got a comeback now, don't you. We're this, or that, and we're worse than you........
It's just not interesting.

:huh:

i think the more you dodge the atheist questions proves their points... telling a deist this stuff about not wanting to share internet space ,well you want to rid me from this earth too...this is the basis of your religion:pop:
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
saying national defense? I don't think its quite that easy.

Can killing be justified or only rationalized?

.

If you truly knew God you would know that it cannot be justified or rationalized but it can by the grace of God be forgiven.
Thats all I got to say about that.
 

fish hawk

Bass Master
i think the more you dodge the atheist questions proves their points... Telling a deist this stuff about not wanting to share internet space ,well you want to rid me from this earth too...this is the basis of your religion:pop:

lol!!!
 

rjcruiser

Senior Member
Bishop...just wondering if you saw my reply in post #24.

Not trying to stump you or prove a point, just want to make sure you saw me answering your question.
 

rjcruiser

Senior Member
Wait a second –

Can we rewind?

In Post #4, TheBishop highlighted a previous response by centerpin in red. Are these centerpin’s words, in red type, or were they inserted into the post by TheBishop?

(I’m just asking, since it is very confusing and impossible to respond to – once again, this is why I agree that the ‘Quote’ function is not reliable and needs to be either tightened up or abandoned. Many others have made the same point – if the function allows the options of editing or inserting into the ‘quote,’ then it is not a quote at all, but merely a convenience for the lazy, and a distraction to the other posters, who cannot reliably know just who said what.)

So, that said:

“Focus on who the 10 C's were written to as well as focus on the remaining writings of Moses that expand on the 10 c's.”

“There's an answer in my op...you just don't want to have to search to find.”

So the insistence is that if only one searches hard enough to find something that doesn’t exist, they will then agree? Nice try, but if you want to assert that there was a person named Moses, and that such a person ever wrote anything at all, you’ll have to prove that by using at least one reliable source other than the OT itself, and that simply can’t be done. Further, you are deliberately and rather ham-handedly trying to deflect the point to only your own, ignoring it, essentially, instead of confronting it.

The point is simple – ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill.’ Period. There is no embroidery around the point, as written in the GOOD BOOK. Problem is, the same Book had already described the killing of quite a few folks, and most had been killed by the same fella who said not to do that. Then it goes on to give, in both the OT AND the NT, plenty more killing and plenty of reasons why one MUST. That too is Commanded.

So FOCUS, less on yourself than on the Book in question. Search, and YOU will find.

“The 10 Cs were written for the Jews....to keep them separate from those that lived around them...along with a few other reasons....but that is the basics. Christ told the Pharisees what the most important command was....He then followed it up with a close second. Do those 2 and you'll be fine.”

WOW! Anyone else want that one? If not, I’ll understand . . .

Then THIS!: “The 10 commandments were not intended for anyone living today. They were written and used in a different period of time for a particular people.”

Well then, THAT was easy! Presumably someone, in some Church someplace, has a NEW set of Commandments that ARE intended for those of us living TODAY. Wait – Don’t tell me! Do they start with something like – ‘Thou Shalt Give Thy Money To The Pretenders’?

Then more! “Justified in the case of . . . “

Really? Where the heck in the simple Command was wiggle room for ‘justifications’ left open? CONTEXT? Be serious. Are you actually putting forward the contention that one of the most central bits of ‘moral’ teaching in the Christian Holy Bible was only meant to apply to the ancient Jewish people?

Think harder. Read the stinking BOOK! Not long after that feel good part about how thou shalt not kill, Ecclesiastes proposed that there was a ‘time to kill.’ Who did that apply to?

C’mon.

:confused:


Hmm...must've been a long winter up your way.
 

Four

Senior Member
Christians here have an easy way out of this (i would think)

Can't you just abandon the 10 commandments? It's old testament stuff, and most OT stuff Christians ignore / say isn't valid anymore.

Why is it easy to ignore not eating shellfish, or stoning disobedient children, but not the 10c?
 

TheBishop

Senior Member
Bishop...just wondering if you saw my reply in post #24.

Not trying to stump you or prove a point, just want to make sure you saw me answering your question.


I got it. Your willing to risk eternal punishment, ignoring 3 "golden rules" to preserve your worldly life. Its ok I would do it too. But then again, I don't believe in sin.

Your answer covered the first part what about a case for war? War is not really self defense, nor are most of the conflicts in which we engage, national defense. Most of our fights have been about economics , or preserving our way of life. So how do we reconcile the taking of life in those circumstances?
 
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rjcruiser

Senior Member
Christians here have an easy way out of this (i would think)

Can't you just abandon the 10 commandments? It's old testament stuff, and most OT stuff Christians ignore / say isn't valid anymore.

Not true. The OT is still very valid today.

This is and could be a thread in and of itself...but I don't want to digress...nor do I have the time.

I got it. Your willing to risk eternal -darn-ation, ignoring 3 "golden rules" to preserve your worldly life. Its ok I would do it too. But then again, I don't believe in sin.

Your answer covered the first part what about a case for war? War is not really self defense, nor are most of the conflicts in which we engage, national defense. Most of our fights have been about economics , or preserving our way of life. So how do we reconcile the taking of life in those circumstances?

What 3 "golden rules" am I ignoring in my initial response?

I would disagree to a point that war is not really self defense. Some is and some isn't. It really depends on the war.

History will show you though, that there were and are many Christians that were conscientious objectors. It isn't really a term used anymore today as the draft is no more, but I know of Christians in other countries that have been killed and imprisoned because they wouldn't fight in unjust wars.
 

Four

Senior Member
Not true. The OT is still very valid today.

This is and could be a thread in and of itself...but I don't want to digress...nor do I have the time.

That may be your opinion, but you have to acknowledge that when a criticism of Christianity / god is brought up and the OT is used, it is generally disregarded.

Heck, the whole thread about "what makes you a christian" is filled with jesus jesus jesus, and the OT is never mentioned
 

JB0704

The Original JB
My personal position is that I believe defending your family / home / person is justified, and force necessary for a succesful defense is what should be used. If a man with a gun breaks in, it may take a gun to stop him.

I am against capital punishment, in all cases.
I am "anti-war" unless such a war is necessary to defend ourselves and our interests (such as defending allies).

As far as "Thou shalt not kill" I believe, just based on the whole work, that this is referring to murder on an individual level. The people who it was commanded to follow were also commanded to kill in battle. Moses killed an Egyptian who was abusing an Israelite before he led the Jews out of Egypt. So, it seems that it is not a blanket command to cover all circumstances.

Thats just my opinion, though.
 
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