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Old 10-29-2010, 12:32 AM
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Hi all. As its named, this thread is about bulldogs. I've been studying, researching, owning, shoveling up after and for a lack of better term living bulldogs of all types for the past 15 or so years of my life. It started back when I was 12, and got my first exposure to bulldogs via the American Bulldog, specifically Lichthardts Marley Alskling. After meeting her I was hooked. I grew up in Chicago, more specifically 10 minutes west of the Sears tower straight down I290 in a city called Bellwood. Anyways, I was so depserate to quench my thirst for knowledge on bulldogs I literally would walk block to block looking for people who had anything resembling an AB or Pit and would offer up walking them or cleaning up after them just to get some hands on time with the dogs and give me a chance to have some conversations concerning the dogs. In doing so, I only actually made things worse because the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn and know. I started to write letters to breeders in magazines, buy kennel videos, and literally drive my parents up the walls. In my conquests, I've met some of the finest AB and APBT dogmen and women and dogs, and some of the worst. I've also learned a lot of the "trade secrets" like the meaning of a lugosi dog, the value of EB and EBT blood, and a lot about all the bulldogs and bull n terriers.

I told you all that to drive home the point to my actual question here. As of late, say 7-10 yrs the name White English has been popping up and I had never heard of it before, and the dog men and women in my circle of friends hadn't either. I have been reading all kinds of "history" and "facts" concerning this breed of dog, and it just is not adding up. I'm seeing info saying they range from 55lbs up to 140lbs, are the direct descendant of the extinct aluant and is the prototype to the AB, APBT and many other breeds. Reports say they are hidden in pockets of the florida panhandle, backwoods of georgia and alabama and now up in ohio. I have a few theories about all of this but I figured id come to a place where the people are from these areas, use bulldogs and cur dogs to make their livings and I'm searching for honest to god truth and real knowledge. Is this a real thing or is it just a way for breeders to sell excess pups and dogs? If they are real, what are they really like tempermentally and physically? Any and all information is appreciated ladies and gentlemen.

Thanks in advance

Mike
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:12 AM
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If you have researched then you do see a true breed of Eng. Bull. They are mostly pure white and I have not every seen or heard of one over 75 lbs. I personally have had 2 before with 1 being solid white with blue eyes and the other having only one small black spot on it's head. Both were about 65 lbs. I now have AB and Pitts and I would say that they were more like AB other than I could not get mine to ever like their jaws ! Another words they would bite but let go of a hog. They would not hold him. There is Eng. Bulls all over the south so you should not have any problem in finding one. And you also have a different breed that's named Olde Eng. Bulls. They are short legged and used for show an pets.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:28 AM
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Now I'm not talking about the AKC version called the English Bulldog, not the Mack Truck dog. I've seen and had my hands on many of them. I'm talking about a breed called White English, Ole Southern White, Carr White English or Hills Bull. I know about the Olde English Bulldogge as well and have seen and had my hands on many of them as well. Interesting note though about the dogs biting but not holding. Me and a friend were discussing a cross dog type called Florida Cur that can look like a bulldog but act like the cur dogs, and also look like Cur dogs and act like bulldogs. Thank you for bringing that up.


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Old 10-29-2010, 02:08 AM
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Yes, I was meaning the White Eng. but their are some breeder's in Fl. that have Fla. cur's and Ole Southern Swamp cur's . The Swamp cur's are only bread bye a very few people and they are bigger style dogs for mainly catching. They are bread for more stamina than your average bulls have and don't let go for no reason ! If one of the fella's from down that way reads this then they can probably tell you who to contact.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:01 AM
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(quote)I now have AB and Pitts and I would say that they were more like AB other than I could not get mine to ever like their jaws ! Another words they would bite but let go of a hog. They would not hold him.

I agree 100% they arent any good to me as catch dogs, I have had a couple and got rid of them as pets cuz i could see them getting somone hurt in the woods. Nothing better than the bite of a pitbull
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:22 PM
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I live in Alabama and know a little about the breed but don't care for them to much. Here is a website you can go to that will tell you just about anything you want to know about the breed W.E.B. http://www.bttbab.com/. I have friends that have them and try to use them for catching hogs but just don't do what they should, they double bit. I have seen some avarage size and I have seen some around 100lbs. Great looking dogs but would not personnaly own one for hog hunting.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:12 PM
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When i was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s a white bulldog with brindle markings or a solid white bull was always called a white english. They were usually 50-80 lbs, i never knew them to be registered by any association and i still see some today but now its mostly pits in the south ga area. I remember hunting in the mid 80s as a kid on the Ocmulgee river and in Clinch co and thats the only catch dog anybody used. I think that line of dog got bred in with all these pits and the true gamey white english is a thing of the past. The ones i see today that ive tried to make catch werent any good and would not catch and lock. This is just my personal knowledge dont claim to be an expert by any means.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:51 PM
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http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/w/whiteenglishbulldog.htm
This should help
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:20 PM
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Thank you guys very much for the input. I really am after any and all firsthand knowledge and experience of any kind I can get. I've been to bttbab many times and I must say IMO there are way too many holes and misguided info in the "historical facts" and self serving quotes from books for me to get on board based on the info there. I'm not trying to slam them or anyone else, but I believe in first hand knowledge and experience over paintings, tiny excerpts from books and the ability to sway ones words to serve someones agenda, if there is one.

Thanks Again

Mike
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:29 PM
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My buddy got a olde english bulldog gave to him, and he tryed it as a catch dog while i was up there hunting with him. The dogs was trying to catch the hog, and half butt catchin it but he got real excited and jumped up and bit my friend. Well to make a long story short my buddy kicked him and the dog went to the hog, and the stupid dog went down to the hog. Sorta chewed/licked the hog the hog threw all the dogs and smacked into the dog the dog ran and shortly after the dogs caught and we tie up every thing and walked back to the truck and the dog was under the truck he didn't go hog huntin agin but my friend was nice to him and found him a person who wanted him as a pet. So there for i will not use nothing besides a pit bull. I love the breed been raised around them, owned my own sence i was like 10 ,and the good thing about them about 8 outa 10 will catch. I might have a AB but it has to be the sporty looking breed of AB the ones that sorta have the looks like a pitt.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:34 PM
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the white english dogs had been in my family over 50yrs..my grandpapa had them on his farm and my daddy still got the same bloodline.they are very laid back and loves kids but they are very good guard dogs of their yard.they are very smart..back 20 yrs ago that is all we caught with was a big male around 75lb..they are good size but still can get around..if i have time i will take some pics over the weekend and post them of some of ours..aint never heard of many of them being register..
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:01 PM
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What goin on Gin house see ur viewin
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:01 PM
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Don't know about a lot about the White English but I've got an Olde English that will catch on the ear and HOLD. He's by no means a woods dog but he's got the instinct, drive, and heart to do it. He's trained for other sport/work as well. I've seen a lot of standard AB's that are great catch dogs!
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:43 AM
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Yeah the OEB was created based on EB x APBT by Mr. Leavitt. Seeing as the original cross was very easy to repeat, every tom dick and harry started to become breeders and totally putting the screwing on all the hard work David Leavitt had done. That being the case he changed the name of his breed, now known as Leavitt Bulldogge, started a registry, has a board of directors and in order for you to be a breeder of Leavitt dogs, they must be approved. We now have the Able bulldog, renesence or gargoyle bulldog, and about 50 different variations now without any real knowledge of dogs, genettics or care for the actual stock being used in creating all these new breeds, so who really knows what their getting when they buy and "olde english bulldogge" anymore.

Rage,
I would love to talk to you about your families stock, pass around some theories I have concerning them and what not. If you don't mind I'm game for keeping it here or we can go to private message concerning it.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the input and keep it coming!

Mike
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:38 AM
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Why pravite messages i'd like to here more about them as well?
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:22 AM
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I only suggested private incase he/she didn't want names being dropped and such. I'm all for a public discussion.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:18 PM
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I can discuss OEB's as much as you want. I know people all over the country with every bit of the blood you talked about and I've had a little of it myself. I can get you to the people to talk standard AB's all you want. I don't know anything about the White English though. I'd like to hear more about them as well.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:07 PM
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Well... in all honesty, the best way this is going to get goin is for those of you who want to read up on them to be able to formulate theories and ideas and what not, go to the white english bulldog preservation society's website, read through all of what that website has to say, and see if you find holes in it or buy it. Then we can get to the nitty gritty of it all. I am still hoping to get some input by Rage and anyone else who may have something to say about it before really spilling out what I think to be true based on everything I have been told by some well known dog men and many of the conversations I've had with fellow bulldoggers. I'm not in anyway trying to come off as some knowitall or like a kid with a toy everyone wants to see and not sharing because I want peopleto be able to take everything said by me and other people and educate themselves and make up their own minds.

Hope that's ok

Keepem workin


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Old 11-03-2010, 05:34 PM
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I went to the WEB website to look and some of the dogs look to me like what ive always called a white english. Some of the dogs look to short nosed, the ones i remember had more of a pit looking head and muzzle. In the last couple of years the AB,old southern and white english have been bunched together as "one of them white bulldogs" it seems by the hunters. I would like to hear your theory Big Mike.
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Old 11-03-2010, 05:44 PM
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Mike i like the dogs in ur avatar what are they?and the white one looks like the ab i like.
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Old 11-03-2010, 06:38 PM
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idk much about them i am trying to learn about dogs and breeding and line breeding and such but i know of a guy named sarge not sure of real name but lived just outside gainesville fl and he had what he called swamp cur it was a almost pure white dog with very bullish figure and attitiude with cur dog drive heart and stamina. his kennel name was "almost home kennels" if anyone has info on sarge please pm me
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Old 11-03-2010, 08:33 PM
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Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect.

Alapaha Blue Bloods and Bully Pits are some of the newest creations. The Alapaha Blue Bloods already have a ridiculous story. In about 20 years there will be some stupid --- story about how the Bully Pits was found in someones family and they were the only ones that had it.

Last edited by MULE; 11-04-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:55 AM
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Hoghunter,
They are my old dogs, now both deceased. The female(red) is the mother to the white one, out of applegates vader red x kouras whoopie the pooh. Good first bulldogs.

Crackercur,
Thank you for bringing up Sarge. Tomorrow I will get into my take on the ab, web and the whole lot.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MULE View Post
Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect.
Thank you so much for bringing this up, it needed to be brought up again.
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:40 PM
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Ok, here goes it. I apologize now for it being so long winded.

I do not buy the claims that their is an actual breed of bulldog called the White English bulldog, and here is why. First and foremost, it has already been said here it was just a generic name for any buldog type dog with a brindle body and white head or white body. I dont buy it because, as already stated here, people realized how easy it was to make a $ by creating new names for everyday things, coming up with fake and romantic histories AND it is very easy with a ittle know how, to make any breed of dog already in existance, and ill prove it.

I do not believe the history that goes with the web being the direct descendant of the now extinct alaunt. The alaunt is an extinct running mastiff. It was supposedly brought here by the spanish and english hundreds of years ago, and have been instrumental in the WEB. The fact that they went extinct over 150yr ago leads me to believe this is false. The claim is backed by the WEBs ability to open its mouth wider than other dogs and that is a trait of the alaunt blood, and it went along with this picture The claim that the WEB has been kept pure without the infusion of other breeds in small pockets on the florida panhandle, georgia and alabamas back woods, and now up in ohio doesnt make sense, because there would have to have been a very large population of these dogs to be able to sustain a healthy population. I find it funny that people on the florida panhandle, backwoods of geogia and alabama and ohio havent heard of them if they are so prevelant and so great of a dog. I also find it extremely coincidental that when the AB's popularity and sales started to diminish, the new extremely old and pure WEB started to take hold. Also, just about all of these breeders who have the supposed WEB aso keep AB and APBT at the same time. That in itself shows me that these claims of the supposed superiority of these dogs to be false, otherwise there woud be no need for these breeders to keep more than just the WEB, unless they are in it for the money. I also find it very suspect that these early settlers would take a dog who could potentially hit the 100lb mark due to sheer logical constraints. How could the dirt poor homesteaders and trailblazers have afforded to spend what little money they had or take extra time and effort to feed such a big dog, when the family itself was struggling to eat. Why would they take 1 dog with 1 set of teeth, ears and eyes when they could have taken 2 or even 3 of the smaller and much more useful and efficient Cur type or hound type dogs, who could not only hunt down and dispatch quarry, would guard the home and family with serious conviction, and 3 of the smaller dogs having more teeth, eyes and ears would still live longer, eat less and be able to work harder making life easier on the homesteaders. Not only that, they could reproduce the working dogs that helped them so much because they had mutiple dogs, instead of having to shell out some money or trade some goods for another single dog. These WEB are supposed to be all around farm style working dog, yet by many accounts they have to be taught to bite and HOLD, which doesnt constitute a bulldog in my mind. They are supposed to be catch dogs par none, yet they arent holding and preferring to bay the quarry. They are supposed to be able to dispatch an adversary as a slashing kill dog, but if it wont commit to a bite or to the fight yet more comfortable to bay or bark, they cant bark an enemy to death. Bulldogs are not slashing dogs who bite and rebite, but hounds and curs are. People say they are purest when they have little or no coloring and have blue eyes. Well, that in itself is false, because bulldogs were ALWAYS brindle, fawn or dark colored dogs. It wasnt until the White English TERRIER was infused to the blood and then bred upon and inbred on, that the white started to take over. White, as you may or may not know, is simply a marking, like a chest or face blaze, that kept expanding over generations and consumes the body, and leaves only a patch or saddle of color. In reality, a dog with a color patch and majority is white, is actually a colored dog with a white marking. These supposed WEB are suposed to be family guardians, yet many of these sites say things along the lines of "show me a southern farmer who walks arond in scratch pants, and then ill believe the WEB was bred to be a family guardian". How can a dog who is supposed to take on all manner of threat when facing its family who doesn have human aggression or not supposed to have human aggression, be a family guardian? I have been told by some WEB people you need special tools to TEACH the WEB HOW to bite..... how to bite.... That goes against everything that a bulldog is. I should have to teach a bulldog to NOT bite everything in its path of vision. I am perfectly fine teaching a bulldog where to bite or how to target, but to have to teach a bulldog it is not only ok to use its jaws, but how, does not set well at all.

Here is what I honestly think these WEB realy are. Nothing but excess dogs breeders have and needed to sell. Dogs, like has already been stated, are of no special breeding or consequence and just got a handle by the people keeing them. I believe as member here has stated, were just any white or brindle and white bulldog type dog running around the farms and woods. I believe many of these WEB are nothing more than PIT or AB cross dogs, and here is why. A member here brought Mr Sarge who created the swamp cur. He created it using Bull Mastiff, Catahoula cur, APBT and AB. I have a friend who went to Sarges with his cousin to get a dog and then noticed these huge white bulldog looking dogs, asked sarge what they were, said they were swamp curs. Needless to say they passed on the deal and werent impressed with the swamp curs cuz yould get bulldog looking dogs whod bay, cur lookin dogs whod catch and everything inbetween. Now, i mentioned that to talk about the "georgia giant" strain of WEB talked about on bttbab. Those dogs are supposedly LGD(livestock guardian dogs) directly descended from Spanish Mastiffs. What I really believe happened is, Sarge sold his Swamp Curs to some unsuspecting people fr $100 or $150 and they grew up, were bred and selected for certain traits, most noticed is size, and what is said to happen is they have thicker fur, feathering on the tail and rear legs and excessive dew lap reacing 140lbs. Johnson ABs have continuous addition of St Bernard(which would account for the thicker fur and feathering) English and Bullmastiff(accountig for the massive bone index, head size and dew lap) and alsoLGD like Great Pyreneese by sheer dumb luck of farm dogs breeding to whoever they like. Breed that kind of dog to another mastiff, which was the Bull Mastiff used by Sarge, and these strong genes are now being doubled and tripled up on. The Catahoula and APBT genes seem to have been washed out and a white giant dog resembling a bulldog was made. Nothing ancient or unexplainable happened there. That brings me to how they are wrong about the bulldogs being LGD. True LGD have little to no contact with the human handlers, live exclusively with the flock, bonding to the animals they are entrusted to guard. With that comes a need for minimal to an absence of prey drive. Bulldogs have prey drive coming out of every orrifice. How can a dog who is bred to catch and chase game all of a sudden lose those instincts and be safe to be left unsupervised with sheep or stock of all ages, sizes and health extremes and NOT try and catch and kill it? Also, LGD will not leave the flock to fight, meaning they wont go past a certain distance that they have decided is a safe zone. A bulldog wil NOT stop or turn away from a fight, especially on his own accord and not tethered. These people take pictures of bulldogs lookig out into a field or checking out some chickens behind a fence and say its an LGD. No, its strictly a farm dog doing farm dog things. That explains the LGD or Georgia Giant. As far as the other types, they honestly seem like other breeders culls based on the descriptions and variance of type. I mean, any bulldogger worth his or her salt wouldt keep a bulldog who didnt have the bulldogs conviction, meaning willingness to do what is asked of him till the bitter end. The descriptios of these WEB not biting and holding, typewriter mouthed, baying is NOT Bulldog or running Mastiff traits but Cur or Hound traits. You can get 10 pictures of WEB and none will look the same. Some are straight APBT crosses, AB crosses, random bred mutt from who knows where but they look the part and no parental history is actualy known or the truth isnt given, and bam you now have the oldest more pure stock out there. Slashing bulldog? ad:

Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls. Breedsknown to work bulls, apbt, ab, eb, mastiffs, shepherds, rottweilers, boxers, cattle dogs, collies...... Dogs known to be in the south that came in white or brindle and white, APBT, AST, SBT, AB, Boxer, St Bernard, EB, Great Dane..... All serious dogs back in the day, all were readily available in the south and all were and still are interbred. Here is where the making a bulldog comes into play
St bernard X Bull Mastiff


Bull Mastiff X Boxer


EB x APBT


APBT x Malinois


EB x Dogo


staffordshire Bull Terrier X AB


EB x Boxer


The next series is ALL Boxers,note the colors and head and body shapes.





This is a Boxer from a dog show in 1957 Russia




How hard would it have been to call any one of the dogs I showed here bulldogs, and even WEB cuz they fit the profie of colors, size and variance. The size variance, tepmeramentand type variance PROVES it is not a breed or even a type that WEB is just a name used to describe a bullog looking dog in the south.

If Im wrong im wrong and I'll admit it, but its gonna take some serious convincing with real proof to show otherwise.

I appologize if I came off as a know it all or blowhard, not my intention. Im just really trying to get to the bottomw of this, and im quite tired of the "factual history" swaying unknowing public.

Mike
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