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  #26  
Old 11-04-2010, 06:25 PM
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You ain't scared to type are you?
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  #27  
Old 11-04-2010, 06:34 PM
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You ain't scared to type are you?
Nope. Not when its concerning bulldogs. You should here some of the conversations I've had this past week with my buddy Scott about just that, bulldogs. Like I said I'm sorry its so long winded, but I'm of the opinion of thuroughness is better than assumptions. If you ever want to talk to me on the phone send me a message with your number and ill call you up. I wish I had the means to just come on down there for a year or 2 and just go around seeing all kinds of bulldogs work and breeding yards and meet you guys in the flesh. Till I can, phones and emails is the best I can do.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2010, 05:38 PM
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what kinda dog u call this?
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2010, 06:15 PM
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Looks like White English to me !! And as far as the true Mastiff dog, it dates back way beyond any spanish blood. The original Mastiff was used by roman gladiator's in their battles against lions and tigers. The dog was known to have weighed up to nearly 400 lbs !! This is where ALL bulldog blood originated. The last and closes DNA of this dog thats still living is the Cane Corso. And there are plenty of WHITE ENGLISH BULLDOGS in the south. Everything has been crossed one time or another to make a certain breed thats why we have Mastiff's all the way down to Boston terrier's.

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Old 11-05-2010, 07:10 PM
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This is where AKC comes in.....it helps buff out the kinks and "stabilize" the breed if ya get my drift. It isn't 100% foul proof but it does help keep it real.
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  #31  
Old 11-05-2010, 08:56 PM
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Rage,
Id call them bulldogs. I assume you're going to say they are WEB from your families strain. If so, thanks for sharing some pictures. If they are your families dogs, can you pleaase share some info about them? Any and all would be great.

Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.
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  #32  
Old 11-06-2010, 08:15 AM
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Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.[/quote]

I have a ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World that has this description in it.
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  #33  
Old 08-11-2014, 04:15 PM
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I know I am resurrecting and an old thread, but I am able to answer some of the OP's questions about white english dogs since I have two of them. Note they were generally not called bulldogs and likely the name White English predates the way the term is now used. Bulldog say about a century and half ago was more commonly used for dogs that fought bulls and also I suppose that would work with cattle. Many cur dogs and many bulldogs and some White English will throw an unruly bovine, usually by grabbing an ear, but will not bait them. The baiting bulldogs, attacked tending to try and pin the bull by his nose, the same way a wolf would do it.
I am in northwest Florida between Pensacola and Milton, FL and in the late 80's and early 90's the elder locals would talk about the White English, most notably its temperament. They were meant to guard livestock, kids, chickens and what have you in your yard or farm. The key thing is that it takes more to trip their attack switch compared to many other guarding breeds and they also turnoff very quickly.
Origins: The name white english goes back to at least 1870's, but by the mid-19th century there were no such dogs in England that still resembled them. Some people think they were named after the extinct shepherds mastiffs that was likely still about in the late 18 th century England. The shepherds mastiffs tended to white as is the great Pyrenees which is a long-haired shepherds mastiff. Dogs were likely ancestral to the WE type were transported to the Americas meaning from Terra de fuego to the US atlantic coast by first the spanish, then French, and the English. There were a lot of different dogs of Mastiff/alaunt/alano/wolf hound types brought here, especially to the "La Florida" area that includes Georgia, Alabama, Florida, and Louisiana. These dogs were bred and selected to make working dogs.
Different localities had their own types of dogs. There were kill dogs like the fila and cuban blood hounds to catch slaves, brindle and red bulldogs (have lower threshold to attack), and the white english type.
One of my dogs does definitely have some old shepherds mastiff in her. Her father was in the 130 lb range and had rear dew claws that are still seen in some alpine mastiffs. Right now my Memphis is a long thin dog that is gaining wt with big shoulders and big head. She is now 75lbs and I expect here to make 85 and perhaps more. One of her litter mates (Missy in California, owner flew in to Memphis, rented a car to get to northern MS) is 60 lbs and Media still retained by Ray Lane the breeder is in the 80 lbs range or bigger now. The point is most lines of these dogs are not really pure and can throw all sizes and a good variation of proportions. Some females can be less than 50 lbs. The muzzles should between 3 and 4 inches and show no sign of "old english bulldog/pug" influence. Coat can be totally white or have some red, red brown, or black patches depending on the locality. Some color is preferred since the all white dogs often throw blue eyes and deafness. Also they have more problems reacting to flea bites and such.
Many of them are not good catch dogs and you will risk your life if you use them to hold a hog while you tie the backlegs. They often let go once the hog stops resisting.
To be a white english it must never growl at its master over anything including food. If it does or snaps at a child it should die. It should have a lot of common sense.

There are very few breeders breeding white english dogs and there are great personality differences amongst those that do.
Many of what WE still exists has been interbred with the newer American Bulldog stock that often has a very different behavior, notably a lot more drive and may display dominance to human members of the family and a lot of dog aggression. The point is as a country dog people have bred these dogs as they see fit and so finding dogs with the original behavior and that are also healthy is a task. White English are not common now in my area and I am not even sure if they exist here anymore.
I went on the net a few years ago once I relocated back to florida and started to look for WE or White English and came across Heather Wilkins and Ray Lanes' postings and they described what I have been told by people about WE 15-20 years earlier.
Eventually Josh W.of Dixie, Georgia sent me a female on hay truck that his father was driving to pensacola that was really not completely suitable behavior wise for his breeding program, but still a very good dog. She is too friendly and to much for a WE. She likes to climb on my lap and barks to demand attention. She came from a cross with a WE dog from Alabama and one of Josh's Georgia WE. The mother of Ginger, Julie was recently bred and sent off to hog hunter near by. Josh says that Julie will catch and has a lot of drive. Julie is also too aggressive for his breeding program (She bit someone at three months of age) while her daughter Ginger was too friendly. Ginger will act aggressively to towards human intruders, especially if Memphis my other dog initiates it. Memphis being a mixture of Georgia Giant and the Carr type dogs is true Old WE in behavior. Her only faults is that she is extremely territorial and possessive of bones and such. She does not like to share, but then what dogs do? She shows no dog aggression, distinguishes between my neighbors and strangers, and is laid back, but ready to react to anything that she does not understand. Alerts to snakes, but does not attack (Neither does Ginger), important if you want your dog to survive in the south. Neither of these dogs can open their mouths to 180 degrees like their grandmother Dixie could do. I saw Dixie at the age of 13 do it and it is hard to believe. Dixie died at almost 14 years of age and IIRC threw her last litter of pups at about 12 years of age. At 13 yrs when I saw her her, breeding did not take.

I am willing to answer any question to the best of my ability. If Memphis continues to do well likely I will breed her when she reaches about 2 yrs of age. I need to talk to Josh, Heather, and Ray about that when the time comes since they are the ones with suitable males for my Memphis.

Last edited by barnetmill; 08-21-2014 at 09:29 PM.
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  #34  
Old 08-11-2014, 04:31 PM
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Funny that I got a notice for this thread today as I just recently got an American Bulldog. His name is Bronco and he is a hybrid. His father is of Johnson lineage and the mother is Scott. Here is a pic of him at four weeks. Right now he is five weeks old and I still have to wait three weeks before I can bring him home. I can't wait!
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  #35  
Old 08-11-2014, 05:22 PM
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Nice picture of an American Bulldog pup with an interesting eyepatch. I am trying to load a picture to this forum of my two pups last winter in the snow in NWFL of all places. Picture is Jan 29 2014. Ginger is the one with the color and a much younger Memphis is almost all white except for a little color on her noggin which is identical to her grandmother dixie.
My first attempt to post a photo: 129-14DSCF0140 - Copy.jpg (204.4 KB)
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  #36  
Old 08-11-2014, 05:29 PM
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Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.

Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.

Thanks for posting the picture.
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  #37  
Old 08-11-2014, 05:39 PM
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Barnetmill,

I noticed you are in fl. so thought I would mention that the lady that I got the pup from has six more if you know someone looking for one. The parents are good looking dogs and registered. It's also their first litter.
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  #38  
Old 08-11-2014, 06:01 PM
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Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.

Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.

Thanks for posting the picture.
I will keep the availability of pups in mind. The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE. The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too. Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness. Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.
In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds. Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.
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  #39  
Old 08-11-2014, 06:11 PM
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I will keep the availability of pups in mind. The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE. The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too. Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness. Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.
In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds. Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.
Interesting. Thanks for the information.

All but one of the pups are white with a little black in them but very little. There is one solid white female.

One fault of the father is that he has one grey eye. She said grey but maybe it is actually blue? I did verify that my pup can hear as I had read about the chance for deafness.

If I remember correctly, the lady said that one of the parents is from the Orlando area and the other is from Georgia.
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2014, 12:47 AM
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Some duties of old WE are to guard everything that the master owns. That includes chickens and even the outside cats.
The white Memphis has generally been best for that. She likes to run over to my little cat and sniff it. The cat runs away with the dog's nose under her tail in terror. But Memphis will not hurt it and I call her back when she does that. Ginger just plain does not like the cat, but has been taught not to attack it.
I obtained a test rooster since i plan to eventually raise chickens. Memphis was cool with the rooster initially. Ginger had to be taught not to pin it down. I was very hard on her, but she got the idea that she was not to chase the chicken and pin it. All was going well until Memphis caught the rooster in the dog house and it took two weeks to stop her from punishing and persecuting that rooster. Memphis being very territorial would tolerate the other dog Ginger in the dog house, but not the rooster. She was punishing it with small non-lethal bites. The Rooster was terrified. I punished (corrected is the better term) Memphis and now she is leaving the Rooster alone. I can when ready get some hens and let the dogs do their jobs. It is obvious that the dogs and Chickens cannot share the same small yard and very soon I will fence my acreage allowing the chickens and dogs to have different territories. The job of the dogs is to run off coyotes , foxes, and what have you that may invade my place. If hogs show up the job of these dogs is to kill or drive them off and not to hold them. Holding is not really in their job description. And they are not bulldogs. True old WE are really more like small mastiffs and primarily protective in function.

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Old 08-12-2014, 02:41 AM
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This is a quote from a previous thread. " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."

Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) The recipe for making a treedog/coondog when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound. In the 1950s till today, my uncle, and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer. His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?

I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in. I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????

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  #42  
Old 08-12-2014, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapy View Post
This is a quote from a previous thread. " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."

Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) The recipe for making a treedog/coondog when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound. In the 1950s till today, my uncle, and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer. His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?

I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in. I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????
I also am not an authority, but you have lot of the best kind of knowledge since you speak of what you have seen.

One thing that reduced the amount of the old bulldog and also WE stock is that they were cross-breed with other dogs to make superior hybrids. The first generation cross is quite good, but further crosses of the first generation cross are not that predictable. Everyone from pit dog fighters to cattlemen had their favorite crosses.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:04 AM
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After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it.
I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:26 AM
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After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it.
I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.
Since the OP was looking into the WE, the American Bulldog is a part of that story and needs to be mentioned. This is an old thread and the OP has not yet offered any more information or questions.
Then you have the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog which has a bit of controversy about it and is a part of the WE story. There are very strong differences of opinion about its origin. But the real important question for a dog owner is how good was the kennel that produced their particular bulldog and whether it was in the beginning a chance cross between a WE and a Catahoula or not is maybe not so important.
Here is one version of the Alapaha story: Mars Hill Kennels > A Brief History of the Alapaha Blue-Blood Bulldog see: http://www.oldsouthernbulldogs.com/n...blood-bulldog/
Lana did suffer serious burns from a house fire.
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On Tuesday morning, April 28, 1992, Ms. Lane was in her home, when it caught fire. As a result of that fire, Ms. Laneís Foundation sire, "Lanaís Marcelle Lane", ARF Reg. No.: ABBB12M, died, and, Ms. Lane was badly burned [3rd degree burns over 30% of her body]. From that day forward, Ms. Lane was under a doctorís care, for she suffered a great deal from her burns and disfigurement. To help relieve her pain, her doctor prescribed pain pills, as well as other prescription drugs, that affected her memory and attitude towards others. As a result of her memory loss,......
I have been told by one breeder that the fire was not an accident and that someone that she had mistreated set the fire. Lana was quite controversial, but the line of dogs that she bred still remains today. Crossing catahoulas into bulldogs has been done before and obviously a lot people like the result. And like I said the Alapaha blue blood bulldog is also part of the WE story.
Quote:
the afore-mentioned bulldog that Ms. Lane saved, to the best of our research, contains canine genes coming from the early "Colonial American Bulldog" [which is the original "American Bulldog" or "Old English White", that was brought to America by the 17th century colonists], and other "Old World Canine Genes", that make up todayís "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard". However, itís the dominate "Colonial American Bulldog" gene that makes this dog so great; but, needless-to-say, it is the recessive gene colors of the "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard" that add to the dogís beauty. You can see these recessive colors appear in her "Blue Merle" & "Silver Dollar" Alapahas".
Heather Wilkins says about the same as the above ancestry of the Alapaha.
Marker R. Nicholas Sr., was Lana's Trainer and has a several lines of Bulldog. If you want another view on southern bulldogs and WE see this link: http://975918329886551044.weebly.com/about-us.html

Of course do not fail to read Heather's website at: http://oweps.weebly.com/the-carr-white-english.html
While I do not like to type that much I thought another view was needed to this thread and this may be more than most really want to know about the WE.
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  #45  
Old 08-25-2014, 04:55 PM
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Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.
Quote:
I have a ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World that has this description in it
.[/quote]
Many books and also much internet material is full of misinformation.
When possible personal experience, reliable documents, or that of people that are reliable is the best source especially when talking about american dogs derived from "Mastiff types sources". Some things will likely never be proven to the satisfaction of scientific scrutiny. For instance I can not tell the origins of or even define what a pitbull is. Plenty is written on it and a lot of it is contradictory. What I can say is we know when properly bred they make some of the best dogs a man could have for everything from hog hunting to be a personal playmate and protector of a child. Companion for children is shown by by the dog (Actually dogs) on the "Little Rascals" which was a pit bull. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_the_Pup
Quote:
was an American Staffordshire Terrier character in Hal Roach's Our Gang comedies (later known as The Little Rascals) during the 1930s. Otherwise known as "Pete, the Dog With the Ring Around His Eye", or simply "Petey"
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:17 PM
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Great research, I feel the same. Good write up!
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Old 06-26-2017, 02:02 PM
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I sure hate to revive such an old thread but I'm hoping Rage will see this and comment. Rage the two pictures you posted to this thread, can you tell me those dogs names please sir? I believe I have a female out of your family's old line of white English. Again sorry to revive such an old thread.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:57 PM
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Happily the white english is still around here. I grew up with them, never seen one with short legs. almost all the farms had them. very intelligent and good hog dogs. They are getting harder to find. they originally came up from st augustine. very intelligent and very protective of children. Ive seen a few that would run around 100 pounds or so.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:49 PM
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Yes sir they sure are! Very different temperament from most American bulldogs and pits. There seems to be more of them still around in Georgia than here in Al. I got my girl from Ga. pretty positive that my girl comes from the line of dogs Rage's family raised. Which is why I was hoping he would see my post and comment. I'd like to talk to him.
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Old 08-14-2017, 06:29 PM
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My Alanos are used for catching hogs with my Plotts. All my Alanos are from Spain from the best hunting stock. These dogs trace back to the 3rd century when they were brought by the Alani tribe. These dogs have been documented with my family since at least the 1300's. They were also brought with ancestors from my family to Cuba, Florida, and Louisiana on military expeditions and to settle in the 1600's. My family brought Alanos not Mastifs. In the 1980's a group of Alano aficionados brought back the breed to decent numbers by rounding up the best old blood stock that was still being used in the northern mountains to catch and hold the wild cattle. I have a great historical article written more than a century ago from English Bulldog experts that the English Bull dog orginated from their importation of Alanos. There is also a great research book recently published in Spain that has all the old breeds as they describe the history of the Alano and all the breeds that came from them.
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