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  #26  
Old 12-08-2016, 05:59 AM
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The Florida Panther is no more.. These cats were brought in from Texas and are decimating our wildlife. Its a fact. Look it up for yourselves. We went from having a hog problem to none.You could ride Dinner Island Ranch without getting out of your truck and see over 100 deer and 200-300 hogs just 3 years ago, this hunting season 1 hog was killed. Everyone around here will tell you the same. I was on a lease that was the same way..once littered in hogs and in the 5 years there are none. Now the deer populations are going to the toilet. There are way more of these cats roaming our woods than the state will admit.
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:01 AM
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The Florida Panther is no more.. These cats were brought in from Texas and are decimating our wildlife. Its a fact. Look it up for yourselves. We went from having a hog problem to none.You could ride Dinner Island Ranch without getting out of your truck and see over 100 deer and 200-300 hogs just 3 years ago, this hunting season 1 hog was killed. Everyone around here will tell you the same. I was on a lease that was the same way..once littered in hogs and in the 5 years there are none. Now the deer populations are going to the toilet. There are way more of these cats roaming our woods than the state will admit.
I'd have to request scientific data to bolster those claims. Heck, most here in Ga would love to see the hog problem cured that quick.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:17 AM
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I have read numerous stories about deer hunting in the glades during that time. My understanding was that the panther population in the late 60s was about what it was now, if not actually a little higher. So logic would tell you it is not the panthers that are suppressing the deer population now. My understanding was that there was no where near the water in the glades that there is now even with all the problems about not enough water now. I would also imagine the invasive plants which are out competing the native plants in a lot of areas would have something to do with the lower deer populations now. Predators alone, if they are native to the area, will seldom suppress the prey population below the ideal carrying capacity of an area. I take a holistic approach to wild spaces...they are not truly wild unless the apex predators are present.

High water has plagued the glades for decades. The deer heard in the 60's took a hard hit due to high water. If you watched the videos i posted you'd see just how high it gets. The population made an amazing recovery and was growing rapidly throughout most of the 70's. Then towards the late 70's and early 80's came extreme water conditions. The glades got flooded real bad in the 80's twice and had the "mercy hunts" because there was no dry ground and all the animals were starving to death or drowning. The state opened the glades with no limit..go put them out of misery and eat them. Lots of deer went to waste and the everglades haven't been the same since nor will it ever. And in those days we had the native Florida Panther...Now we have a non native Texas cougar who's numbers are way stronger than what the state is fessing up to and its all for monetary gain. They get lots of money to "protect" the Panther...Its a farse
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  #29  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:25 AM
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Kid brother was leaned back against a tree turkey hunting in the Ozarks when a big cat decided to come off a limb above him. The cougar landed about 20 yards away and left in hurry.

My brother was so impressed with the cat he can tell that story today with equal enthusiasm years later. He always remarks on the beauty of the cat and it's graceful movement in a dead run. This occurred during the time AGFC was insisting there was no cats in the state.

I like seeing reminders of what the wilderness was before we had a "better idea."
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:37 AM
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Check this out. Here's a link to the harvest report for the last 10 years at Dinner Island Ranch wma. Keep in mind this place is quota hunt only and only issue 40 permits per hunt. Hogs seem to have just disappeared.

http://myfwc.com/hunting/harvest-rep...-season-years/
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:59 AM
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Check this out. Here's a link to the harvest report for the last 10 years at Dinner Island Ranch wma. Keep in mind this place is quota hunt only and only issue 40 permits per hunt. Hogs seem to have just disappeared.

http://myfwc.com/hunting/harvest-rep...-season-years/
I did a 10 year range, 2006-07 year to 2016-17 range.

In 2006 there were a total of 33 Bucks killed @ Dinner Island

In 2016 it is showing 45, with very little variance over the ten years except for the increase in harvest.

Are you saying Panthers like hogs but not deer?

Seems from everything I've read the Burmese Python and the Hogs are the two most concerning non-native invasives in South Florida, so if one is gone, one only has to worry about the other.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:13 AM
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I wonder why there are still plenty of deer and hogs in Texas, then?
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  #33  
Old 12-08-2016, 09:43 AM
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The deer numbers across all of South Florida are way down. Dinner Island has the most deer acre for acre out of any of our wma's but it won't be that way for long. Since you looked at the harvest record you probably noticed many years with hog harvest in the hundreds as high as almost 500 and now this year just 1. From hundreds to 1. They didn't just pack up and leave that's for sure. The deer harvest numbers for the big cypress have plummeted and is the reason for UGA's current deer predation study. They collared 100 deer and in the first month or so 38 were killed and 36 were confirmed panther kills..the other 2 were bobcats.
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:10 AM
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I wonder why there are still plenty of deer and hogs in Texas, then?
Maybe because they're not protected and are legal to harvest .
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  #35  
Old 12-09-2016, 09:20 AM
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The deer numbers across all of South Florida are way down. Dinner Island has the most deer acre for acre out of any of our wma's but it won't be that way for long. Since you looked at the harvest record you probably noticed many years with hog harvest in the hundreds as high as almost 500 and now this year just 1. From hundreds to 1. They didn't just pack up and leave that's for sure. The deer harvest numbers for the big cypress have plummeted and is the reason for UGA's current deer predation study. They collared 100 deer and in the first month or so 38 were killed and 36 were confirmed panther kills..the other 2 were bobcats.
The deer population was artificially high in the area in the 60s and 70s...in the videos you posted the gentleman was talking about how they had to transplant hogs to the Everglades. Plus, and this is a big one, there were more cats in the Everglades when the deer population was rising. It is never correct to blame a population crash of one prey species that is native to the area. There are a multiple of reasons for the deer crash, more water, less space, invasive plants and apparently invasive species. Quiet frankly the transplanting of wild hogs in the 50s or when ever it was would have helped hurt the deer population. Hogs out compete deer.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector View Post
The deer population was artificially high in the area in the 60s and 70s...in the videos you posted the gentleman was talking about how they had to transplant hogs to the Everglades. Plus, and this is a big one, there were more cats in the Everglades when the deer population was rising. It is never correct to blame a population crash of one prey species that is native to the area. There are a multiple of reasons for the deer crash, more water, less space, invasive plants and apparently invasive species. Quiet frankly the transplanting of wild hogs in the 50s or when ever it was would have helped hurt the deer population. Hogs out compete deer.
Yep, and there are more predators down in that swamp than just cats. Gators and pythons eat their fair share I'm sure.

Sounds like another hog hunter sore that his invasive species isn't there to make a living on anymore.

They can have every Python and Hog that ever existed where they weren't suppose to as far as I'm concerned.
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  #37  
Old 12-09-2016, 09:57 AM
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As for the Texas cats, there were 8 females transplanted. That is it. They were of a subspecies closest genetically to the Florida panther. There was always genetic interchange between the Florida panther and the Eastern cougar until the eastern cougar was extinct. You read the old writings from back in the early 20th century about the gladesmen, there just were not many deer there...before the ditching and draining and canals and the diking of the bit O, there just were not many deer....that was not prime habitat, deer can not live off of saw grass, wire grass and the subtropical forbs. The growth of agriculture and drying of much of the everglades out is what led to there being a decent deer population. Keep in mind, this deer population started to explode while there were still plenty of panthers in the area. They were responding to the changing environment. Ecosystems are delicate and the slightest little change has a ripple effect that can at times seem astronomical. We know cats eat deer, we also know from the study of the cats they tested in north Florida that they ate more raccoons, possums and smaller game than they did deer. We know the pythons have pretty much wiped out that population in the everglades, we also know that pythons eat deer....Well, we also know that panthers have a rather large home range, with a males well exceeding 100 square miles. We know that panthers do not allow competing panthers in their home range. We know that panthers kill trespassing panthers. Now here is the clincher. We know you can find more large pythons in one male panther's home range than there are panthers in Florida. And we also know due to a recent publication that one python was found with 3 deer in its stomach.....so, we know that a python can eat a number of south Florida deer a year. What does this tell me....if any one animal is driving the crash in south Florida deer, it is the python....even when it is not eating deer, why? Because it is wiping out all other primary components of the panther's diet. If that is all they were doing....eating all the meso-prey....that would be enough to increase predation on deer...but, they are ALSO eating deer. You want to help the deer? Hunt down and kill every python you can find. There is a small market for python hides...grow that market. You could create a whole new generation of gladesmen who make their living off of python hides. Oh yeah, one last thing.....the higher water, concentrates the deer on the hammocks...which also makes them easier prey for the pythons. The pythons do not have natural predators in South Florida to limit their growth, sure some birds will eat juvenile pythons, and gators will eat a medium sized python...maybe even a large one...but we also know the pythons prey on gators too....you have an environment in South Florida that is in stress due to its alterations over the last 100 or so years. It is in stress due to unregulated urban and suburban sprawl. It is in stress due to lacks of water at time and exclusion of fire at times. It is in stress due to nitrates and phosphates being feed into the system disrupting the aquatic plant diversity. You have a system that is in stress due to invasive plants that out compete the native plants and you are creating monocultures of Australian pines, Brazilian pepper, etc...and they you throw in invasive super predators, the pythons. It is a wonder you have any deer left quiet frankly. They are putting more water into the everglades, more annually than has been there for decades, this is good, but it is also effecting the deer, it is limiting their population, bringing it back to its levels of old....plus all the other problems discussed above. The flood, drought and fire cycle is what is natural for the everglades...it has been altered too much. Maybe it is getting restored little by little, it needs to be, Florida Bay is shot out....That area was home to the panther long before any humans moved there....hopefully it will be home for them for ever....and hopefully they will expand their territory.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by redneck_billcollector View Post
The deer population was artificially high in the area in the 60s and 70s
Artificially high? Seriously?? What magazine did you get that from? At one time the everglades had one of the largest deer heards in the nation, and they were thriving. Man and high water changed that. The panther/cougar problem doesn't much concern the everglades as it is to wet to hold them as there is really not much for dry ground.. Now the rest of South Florida is a different story. These cats are solid down here and their numbers are steadily growing and the areas with an abundance of them has seen a drastic decrease in wildlife. Look at the Big Cypress.. the deer heard is going to the toilet and nobody seems to know why. The cypress has plenty of dry ground when the water comes up and aside from that nothing has changed. The state upped the size for deer to be legally harvested yet the numbers are less and less. Again there is a reason the state and UGA are conducting this predation survey. The deer harvest used to always be between 200 and 300 and the last few years hasn't seen 100. The addition lands has produced 1 deer this year and Bear Island only 5. So far this year we've had 40 cougars hit by cars and they are now stalking hunters and even attacking our turkey decoys. Never ever has there ever been this amount of encounters with these critters. You talk to all the gladesman you want and you'll hear the same thing.."hunted out there my whole life and never saw one till recently". Now they're everywhere.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:51 AM
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For the last few years, I am becoming more and more interested in the Florida Panther. Florida Wildlife Commission states that there are about 180 in the state, but, I believe this number is being purposefully understated.
In my small business, I have the ability to talk to many people who spend time in the woods, and the stories are very consistent; local fauna populations are plummeting as the Florida panther population expands. Yet the FWC continues to claim that there are only 180.
Recently, a gentleman came to my shop, and the discussion led to panthers. He claims that he has a friend that was contracted by the state to insert GPS chips into panthers from I-4 south, and this project stopped after his friend "chipped" 240!!!
I was shocked at this, however, how true is this claim? So I submitted a public records rquest to FWC for any information on financing GPS chips into cats. The response is shocking.
I was shocked at this, however, how true is this claim? So I submitted a public records request to FWC for any information on financing GPS chips into cats. The response is shocking.
I am urging anyone interested in the local ecosystem to urge your state legislatures and the Governor to immediately STOP all further funding any projects to expand the size of the panther herd. This animal is decimating the local wildlife populations, and the ecosystem cannot sustain such an apex predator. For example, did you know a mature tom cat can kill a deer every four days? Furthermore, did you know that cougars were imported from Texas to breed with the Florida cats? How is it that wild hogs can be considered 'pests' because they are 'non-native', yet these cats from Texas are protected?
Additionally, when I ask the question: what happens when the cats eat all the local fauna, the response is: nature will balance itself out, which translates into, the cats will starve themselves out of existence. So why spend the money, and sacrifice the ecosystem, when the endgame is the same as it would have been when there were only 24 Florida panthers???
Below is the response to my request from FWC. It leads to tons of more questions, towhich I have yet gotten answers to. Please act now, before its too late.

Thank you for contacting the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) regarding the Florida panther. In response to your question we do not use any such implantable GPS chips on panthers. We do use transponder chips in all live panthers that we handle but those chips only allow us to identify a specific panther, not track it. This transponder chips are the same kind of chips used in veterinarian offices to help identify pets if they get lost. We pay for it out of our allocation from the FL Panther Trust Fund. We have no easy way to tabulate how many we have used but it is likely around 500 or so. They cost about $1 each because we buy needles that have a chip inside and each needle is in a sterilized wrapping.

Sincerely,

Ashley Scruggs
Division of Habitat and Species Conservation
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  #40  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:11 PM
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I am basing my statements about deer in the glades on a number of books....Gladesmen by Glenn Simmons and Laura Ogden which is a collection of stories and recollections of Gladesmen who made their living in the Swamp before it was made a national park...going back to the late 19th century. Florida Enchantments by A W Dimock, who was a wealthy sportsman who hunted and fished in late 19th century south Fla and early 20th century. To include crocodile and manatee hunting for zoos up north. Those are just a couple. I also have a large collection of journals from various indian agents in Florida who kept track of the deer hide trade right after the first Seminole war and where the hides came from. There is also an interesting account by William H. Simmons who traveled through all of Florida and is considered one of the best accounts of the natives of Florida during the early 19th century. He talked about there being very few if any natives south of the Kissimmee basin because there was nothing for them to eat...there was a lack of deer and bear...not enough to sustain the natives. The account was published in 1822. Game was so limited in the area, the Seminoles did not even move into south florida until the end of the second Seminole war and then the only reason they moved there was because of the removal act and nobody could find them. (same with the Miccosukee). The deer started to increase in the everglades after the Labor day Hurricane of 1935 when the Government implemented the water management plans that started draining the everglades. The deer population started to rise with that and reached its peak in the 60s. All accounts about the early gladesmen talk about the same thing....they ate gators, cooters, fish....and birds along with coons possums, and squirrels...venison was seldom on their menu. Also many of the early calusa sites in south Fla. did not have much deer remains...ie bones in the trash middens compared to other game, fish and manatees. Many archeologist reasoned there were many reasons for the Calusa to rely on the sea for food, but felt the lack of large game was one simply because the evidence of deer consumption was lower in Calusa sites than any other natives of the costal southeast. But none of that is either here nor there. When we know the deer population was growing we also know that there was a healthy panther population. As for the state understating the numbers...that is counter intuitive. Here is why. They are federally listed. Under federal law it is harder to get waivers to develop land if there is a protected population. Developed land is worth more to the state government than the federal government for tax reasons, especially in Fla, where there is no state income tax. The state government has been pushing for the delisting of panthers since it has been in Republican hands...so why would a government who wants to get rid of the listing...lie about the numbers being lower than they really are? They wouldn't. There are huge tracts of land, really influential people want developed...but the panthers listing is keeping that from happening. Believe me, it there were more panthers than the states says, they would be screaming that fact from Tallahassee. It is republican law makers, who control the government, who are saying the florida panther is not a separate species...they have lost that debate, so don't you would think they would say they are doing alright if they had the evidence to back it?
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Old 12-11-2016, 06:58 PM
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As for the Texas cats, there were 8 females transplanted. That is it. They were of a subspecies closest genetically to the Florida panther. There was always genetic interchange between the Florida panther and the Eastern cougar until the eastern cougar was extinct. You read the old writings from back in the early 20th century about the gladesmen, there just were not many deer there...before the ditching and draining and canals and the diking of the bit O, there just were not many deer....that was not prime habitat, deer can not live off of saw grass, wire grass and the subtropical forbs. The growth of agriculture and drying of much of the everglades out is what led to there being a decent deer population. Keep in mind, this deer population started to explode while there were still plenty of panthers in the area. They were responding to the changing environment. Ecosystems are delicate and the slightest little change has a ripple effect that can at times seem astronomical. We know cats eat deer, we also know from the study of the cats they tested in north Florida that they ate more raccoons, possums and smaller game than they did deer. We know the pythons have pretty much wiped out that population in the everglades, we also know that pythons eat deer....Well, we also know that panthers have a rather large home range, with a males well exceeding 100 square miles. We know that panthers do not allow competing panthers in their home range. We know that panthers kill trespassing panthers. Now here is the clincher. We know you can find more large pythons in one male panther's home range than there are panthers in Florida. And we also know due to a recent publication that one python was found with 3 deer in its stomach.....so, we know that a python can eat a number of south Florida deer a year. What does this tell me....if any one animal is driving the crash in south Florida deer, it is the python....even when it is not eating deer, why? Because it is wiping out all other primary components of the panther's diet. If that is all they were doing....eating all the meso-prey....that would be enough to increase predation on deer...but, they are ALSO eating deer. You want to help the deer? Hunt down and kill every python you can find. There is a small market for python hides...grow that market. You could create a whole new generation of gladesmen who make their living off of python hides. Oh yeah, one last thing.....the higher water, concentrates the deer on the hammocks...which also makes them easier prey for the pythons. The pythons do not have natural predators in South Florida to limit their growth, sure some birds will eat juvenile pythons, and gators will eat a medium sized python...maybe even a large one...but we also know the pythons prey on gators too....you have an environment in South Florida that is in stress due to its alterations over the last 100 or so years. It is in stress due to unregulated urban and suburban sprawl. It is in stress due to lacks of water at time and exclusion of fire at times. It is in stress due to nitrates and phosphates being feed into the system disrupting the aquatic plant diversity. You have a system that is in stress due to invasive plants that out compete the native plants and you are creating monocultures of Australian pines, Brazilian pepper, etc...and they you throw in invasive super predators, the pythons. It is a wonder you have any deer left quiet frankly. They are putting more water into the everglades, more annually than has been there for decades, this is good, but it is also effecting the deer, it is limiting their population, bringing it back to its levels of old....plus all the other problems discussed above. The flood, drought and fire cycle is what is natural for the everglades...it has been altered too much. Maybe it is getting restored little by little, it needs to be, Florida Bay is shot out....That area was home to the panther long before any humans moved there....hopefully it will be home for them for ever....and hopefully they will expand their territory.
Well Said Billcollector...Well said.
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Old 12-11-2016, 07:05 PM
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I recently heard about a DNA test USFW did on our Panthers and I quote..There is no significant difference DNA wise between the Texas Cougars and the SF Panthers.
That would mean they are not some side throwback and undeserving of special considerations....
Haven't heard a peep about this for months . Lot's of Funds at stake here
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:41 PM
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Well Said Billcollector...Well said.
Thank you. I am a student of Aldo Leopold and am of a firm belief that all ecosystems are complicated to the extent that it is hard for humans to easily understand them fully. My true passion are the longleaf / wire grass savannas of both the upper and lower coastal plains of the deep South. The interaction of the animals and plants along with the fungi and bacteria are truly astounding. The whole nitrification of the soil along with the interaction of periods of drought, fire and flood just fascinate me with ever single life form having a role to play. It is that way with all ecosystems and our wet soil systems are so important and yet so ignored by everyone. You all have been seeing the effects of mismanagement on a grand scale this year in south Florida. I look at each ecosystem as a complicated tapestry and when you start removing threads randomly and adding threads randomly you are bound to destroy the tapestry and its pattern. Just look no further than our eastern hardwood forests with the removal of the American Chestnut. The crash of deer and all other animals that relied on that one tree to make it through the winter. The fertility of the streams were altered, the whole forest changed in nature with oaks and sweetgums becoming some of the more dominate trees...oaks are good, we all know that, but we all know they are not reliable for mast every year and on bust years we see the effects....chestnuts on the other hand always had bountiful mast crops and they drove the forest cycles. The forests and wetlands of south Florida will never be the same, but we should not just say "oh well" and go on about our business. Predators are always the best indicator of a system, the proverbial canary in the mine, and if you create a healthy ecosystem predators will not have that huge effect on the prey base....at first it always seems that it does, but in reality it does not. When the sportsman is used to an artificially high game base, they naturally do not like predators being reintroduced...but in the long term it helps, just look at the changes in Yellowstone and the natural return of the beaver since the wolves have returned. A true sportsman realizes this. I hunt to be part of the environment, the success of my hunts are never measured by how much game I harvest...it is measured by the whole experience....the birds and animals I see...the flowers....the sounds and yes, it would be so much more if in fact I saw a panther track a bear track or a wolf track...just knowing I am not the only creature looking for prey.
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:34 PM
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So, since cougars from Texas were brought to Florida to help increase the Florida panther population, then why aren't deer from Texas also brought over to increase the herd of Key deer?
Also, hogs are classified a 'non-native' species as they were introduced. Ditto pythons. So then, how aren't these cross bred Texas/Florida cats also considered non-native?
The time has come for the panthers to be taken off of the Endangered Species list, and all public funding needs to cease immediately. The day is coming in which we won't see anymore fauna in our woods, all in the name of saving the panther. Then what happens, the panther dies of starvation....
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by westcobbdog View Post
I read that same article. Lets hope those Cougars and Pythons don't eventually move northward into Ga some day.
That would be bad. Just look at the so called "reintroduction" of the coyote has done to fawn size animals as well as calves. Not to mention quail, rabbit and other GAME animals.

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I happen to be one person who wants panthers here.
Not me. Ask the people out west that have to hire hunters with dogs to get rid of them.

There is a TV show about that. Mountain Men.. I think.

We don't need any invasive species here. 2, 4 legged finned or snakes or nothing else!
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:28 PM
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Thank you. I am a student of Aldo Leopold and am of a firm belief that all ecosystems are complicated to the extent that it is hard for humans to easily understand them fully. My true passion are the longleaf / wire grass savannas of both the upper and lower coastal plains of the deep South. The interaction of the animals and plants along with the fungi and bacteria are truly astounding. The whole nitrification of the soil along with the interaction of periods of drought, fire and flood just fascinate me with ever single life form having a role to play. It is that way with all ecosystems and our wet soil systems are so important and yet so ignored by everyone. You all have been seeing the effects of mismanagement on a grand scale this year in south Florida. I look at each ecosystem as a complicated tapestry and when you start removing threads randomly and adding threads randomly you are bound to destroy the tapestry and its pattern. Just look no further than our eastern hardwood forests with the removal of the American Chestnut. The crash of deer and all other animals that relied on that one tree to make it through the winter. The fertility of the streams were altered, the whole forest changed in nature with oaks and sweetgums becoming some of the more dominate trees...oaks are good, we all know that, but we all know they are not reliable for mast every year and on bust years we see the effects....chestnuts on the other hand always had bountiful mast crops and they drove the forest cycles. The forests and wetlands of south Florida will never be the same, but we should not just say "oh well" and go on about our business. Predators are always the best indicator of a system, the proverbial canary in the mine, and if you create a healthy ecosystem predators will not have that huge effect on the prey base....at first it always seems that it does, but in reality it does not. When the sportsman is used to an artificially high game base, they naturally do not like predators being reintroduced...but in the long term it helps, just look at the changes in Yellowstone and the natural return of the beaver since the wolves have returned. A true sportsman realizes this. I hunt to be part of the environment, the success of my hunts are never measured by how much game I harvest...it is measured by the whole experience....the birds and animals I see...the flowers....the sounds and yes, it would be so much more if in fact I saw a panther track a bear track or a wolf track...just knowing I am not the only creature looking for prey.


Yep. Well spoken, Brother Jay.
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:57 PM
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That would be bad. Just look at the so called "reintroduction" of the coyote has done to fawn size animals as well as calves. Not to mention quail, rabbit and other GAME animals.



Not me. Ask the people out west that have to hire hunters with dogs to get rid of them.

There is a TV show about that. Mountain Men.. I think.

We don't need any invasive species here. 2, 4 legged finned or snakes or nothing else!
We did not "reintroduce" the coyote in GA. It came here on its own...if you consider it a coyote. As for its impact on deer, I wish they would take more. We have too many deer as it is. As for quail...interesting fact. The Albany Quail Project originally started by Auburn and now under the guidance of Tall Timbers would disagree with you. It is the most extensive study on wild quail ever done....anywhere, with thousands of quail with radio transmitters and hundreds of nest cams, their conclusion is that our "coyotes" have a positive impact on quail populations. Coons and possums are the number one and number two culprits on raiding nests, up to 80% of the nests being destroyed in some areas of the study by those two animals. The study found that the higher the number of "Coyotes" and bobcats the more successful hatches, why you ask, the nominal predation on birds by these two animals were outweighed by their preying upon the coons and possums and with more coyotes and cats, you had more quail. Back to the deer. You must not have been deer hunting very long in GA. When I started deer hunting, there were no coyotes here...but, there were also very few deer. If you saw a doe, which you couldn't shoot by the way, it was the talk of the deer camp, and I am talking about in SOWEGA, which is the best area to hunt deer now. The deer population grew, with these wild canines whose populations grew at the same time, quiet frankly, beyond the carrying capacity. If you ever see a browse line in the woods, there are way too many deer. I have lots of wild canines on the land I own, and I have lots of deer. The problem comes with objects that concentrate deer, feeders, food plots, etc. These concentrate deer predators. I have seen our deer season go from ...not being able to harvest deer in certain counties, and a one buck limit in the others....to now where the limits are more than the majority of hunters can take in a year. At one time or other every state in the union had bounties on cougars...that is not the case any more. I have hunted them....I was not paid to do so, I paid a lot to do so, they are really good eating (many mountain men of old preferred its meat to all others...it is just like veal) . He does it on the show because it is legal and I imagine he likes the meat. As for houndsmen being hired to hunt them, yeah, just as they are in Fla. it is to put collars on them and study them. I know a few houndsmen that make some good money doing it, the guide I hired did that during the off season. Panthers would not be an invasive species here, they were here originally, GA had a bounty on them. They were extirpated, so if they show back up, they are a natural part of our environment. The whole state of GA is considered part of the historic and natural range of the Florida subspecies of Felis concolor. By definition, invasive species is something that did not occur naturally or evolve in a certain local. Panthers were here before we were and they were here until the last century.....on a regular basis, not the rare young male looking for females. Interesting you would say 2 legs in talking about invasive species....all white people would fall in that category, and arguably so would all natives, they did not evolve here.
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:18 PM
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So, since cougars from Texas were brought to Florida to help increase the Florida panther population, then why aren't deer from Texas also brought over to increase the herd of Key deer?
Also, hogs are classified a 'non-native' species as they were introduced. Ditto pythons. So then, how aren't these cross bred Texas/Florida cats also considered non-native?
The time has come for the panthers to be taken off of the Endangered Species list, and all public funding needs to cease immediately. The day is coming in which we won't see anymore fauna in our woods, all in the name of saving the panther. Then what happens, the panther dies of starvation....
You do that, and every little piece of property in SWFLA that is not owned by the state will be subdivided, with the exception of some of the older ranches. Also a decent chunk of the land owned by the state and the feds down there that is not being subdivided is there only for the panthers. The texas cougars are closest genetically with the eastern cougar....which always had a genetic interchange with the Fla. panther. Strange though. I understand that on the ranches in the area there is still a decent deer population. I only see this on another forum I am on with a number of deer hunters who hunt ranches in panther areas. I also see some decent deer harvested on them. But then again, the ranches are on the only decent deer habitat down there and are burned on a regular basis for stimulating grass growth, and this also stimulates forbs and legume growth. The ranches tend to be more xeric in nature which is better for the deer.....
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:33 PM
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After double checking on the Seminole subspecies of deer a few moments ago, I think I am going to book a hunt on a ranch south of Ft. Meyers with an outfitter for next year. No high fence, and some really nice Seminole whitetails harvested this year. I actually think it is a couple of ranches that this outfitter leases hunting rights on. They even say if you are lucky you can see a panther. They have a decent harvest rate. Combo deer hunting and canal tarpon fly fishing trip in the near future...
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:46 PM
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Default That would make YOU RONG. redneck_billcollector

1st paragraph
Among the non-native wildlife found throughout the southeast, coyotes are unique in their ability to rapidly acclimate to a variety of habitats. With the extirpation of the red wolf in the last century across Georgia, the coyote (Canis latrans) has been able to fill a once occupied void and now can be found statewide.

Last paragraph under NUISANCE
second sentence:
Trapping and/or hunting are additional solutions against nuisance coyotes. Because coyotes are a non-native species in Georgia.
That would either make YOU or GDNR wrong.

Iíll go with GDNR.

And I have been hunting Georgia over 40 years.
Pretty sure I know the drill.

Read more here:
http://www.georgiawildlife.com/node/1391

No, we donít need big cats either.

Boutí half-way down the page. Note the date.

Although coyote populations are increasing in Georgia, and studies show they kill and eat newborn fawns each spring, Whitney said studies are still under way to get a more precise picture of their impact on whitetail deer numbers.

More on that here.
http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/me...s-deer-decline
They are NOTHING compared to what big cats would be.

If you need more, maybe you can disagree with UGA.
http://athenaeum.libs.uga.edu/xmlui/...pdf;sequence=1

STATUS........ on down the page a little.
In Georgia, coyotes are non-native and there is no closed season for harvest. Coyotes can be
captured with foothold traps and live traps. Hunting can also be effective using distress calls to lure in
the animal. Their fur is still valued and coyotes may be seasonally hunted for commercial pelts.

They are NOTHING compared to what big cats would be.

One way to find out for sure if Cats make it this far north
would be for one to step in my cross hairs. Then we would know.
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Last edited by Big7; 12-12-2016 at 07:22 PM.
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