Not bowed to Baal?

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him."

Romans 11:4-
And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

One group was chosen for their faith and the other group was chosen by grace and not works.
I wonder if it was because of the two different covenants they were under?

I am inclined to see this exchange, and what is illuminated in it, as prompted more in regards to the complaints offered by Elijah.

God knows the pity parties I have myself thrown, so I do not offer up Elijah as an outstanding example of anything to demean his estate. If anything, if a commonness of experience may be gleaned and recognized (not for the purpose of finding fault, but instruction), then perhaps, such instruction is found eminently beneficial.

"I have reserved" says the Lord to Elijah. This is not Elijah's work, this is not, nor was ever, on Elijah's shoulders to initiate or complete. Does this mean that, at times, the disciple does not seem to feel that much has been placed on his shoulders to such a point of feeling burdened to a breaking?


I have known many that would readily admit to it, few who do not, at least acknowledge it. (If not in succinct word, then at least by implication of their behavior) Of such it seems plain they "carry a burden" easily discerned in their being quickly provoked, and quickly turning from a patience in enduring to a discharge of some fiery judgment in which their lamentation may be heard.
Yes, there's a reason I am able to see this. And, others, too, no doubt. Probably because we have "been there", know that estate, have found mercy there toward ourselves, and seek (at best in Godly fear) to not quickly enter into a judgment against them, but show the same mercy we have been shown, lest we also slip...again.

It is a curiously powerful place this, our Lord Jesus Christ, that we have entered. Having on the one hand, a gift of such necessity and overarching import within ourselves as cannot be measured, in jars of clay. On the one hand it is easy to mistake the importance of the message now for an imparted importance to our very own selves for delivery.

It's a remarkably small step from "since the message is so important, and I am entrusted with it, and to it, I must therefore be very important among men".

But it is there we begin, if tempted to that thinking, to lose sight of the very Lord, our first love, who has entrusted anything to us. And there the gospel begins to feel as burden, not gift, as work, not delight and a joy given us, and inwardly we easily begin to recount all that "we have been through" for its sake, and lose sight of what the Lord has done for us to its delivery.

It is for this reason (I believe) Paul said he spoke as a fool, recounting his trials, though not lying about them, but knowing a certain embarrassment before the Lord, yet he felt a pressing to make known to the brethren there is indeed a cost, even if "on our end" by comparison, paltry, there remains an attaining that comes only through a suffering of sorts that is inextricably bound to pursuing the truth found in Jesus Christ. It can never be discounted, but likewise, is never to become for us our own museum.

Each man speaks surely, from his place in the Lord, and any scars, wounds, lashings that have helped him see are to solely entrusted to the Lord for His keeping and delight. If and when He sees fit to reveal such of one, to another...it is done.

It is laughable to me now, how that one might think the Lord needs reminding of either "where we have been" or what we have been through...but I also know such laughter is not quite fitting, for I am only a breath away, if the Lord choose, to allow me to experience again all the confounding bleakness manifest in the soul that is so easily provoked to the "why me?" pity party.

Yes..."why me" is also inclusive of this response..."are you sorry I have showed you My salvation, made known to you the suffering of my own Son, for you? Does 'why me?', not include that?"
"Would it be better for you to not know in your 'why me?'..."

God forbid!
And here a Holy fear may take hold, renewing again in a love that eclipses what was formerly seen as a suffering "rendered" rather than a suffering graced to participate in, and a mind may be changed...both as to suffering, the nature of "a" man, and a vision of such magnanimous grace toward deliverance that lips are wisely censured.

Yes, there is no denying our Lord's words as to the "many" and the "few", and when we feel the pressure of what appears and overwhelming number of resistances against us, it is wise to remember the endurance of our Lord in bearing such contradictions against himself. And there we may decide (or seem to be allowed to) whether seeing Him, knowing Him, being in communion with Him, is really worth the words we have offered in endorsement of it that bring us to these places of pressure, or whether we ourselves, would prefer to be counted as hypocrites before Him.

It's like a no brainer when finally brought there...but Oh, the bringing shows only one thing...what He has endured to make us His own...where he has tread in such humility even beneath the depths our self pity, and waits patiently till it is exposed...that he may shore us up.

Up.

Yes, it is all of grace.

That One has prayed..."that your faith may not fail..."

Listen for His intercession for us, and we will hear it "for us", even when we do not know at all who is, who is not, see who is, see who is not, of that company of 7000.
He who is faithful in little (like merely speaking the truth), may find himself seeing more than he could have ever imagined. Or is capable of "making up".

Artfuldodger said:

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him."

Romans 11:4-
And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

One group was chosen for their faith and the other group was chosen by grace and not works.
I wonder if it was because of the two different covenants they were under?

Click to expand...

When I read Romans on those who had bowed to Baal and a remnant chosen by grace I most simply read that those who had bowed to Baal is the majority as a remnant is chosen by grace. Baal seems to me indicative of a false God or false Gods in this case. Today we might say simply that many ( a majority) are given to the Kool Aid drinks of the world and have become hard in mind and spirit.

On the other hand those of a remnant chosen by grace simply means that a few, a minority, a relatively small percentage have seen fit not to put the world's drinks to their lips to the extent that it has caused spiritual derangement and obscured the will of God for man. These are chosen by favor simply because they can hear God's voice.

I might venture to say that those chosen by works refers to the Jews or Israelites who had been formed by the works of God who brought them out of Egypt when they were called Hebrew to latter form them into a people for which God would reveal his designs to all the world. So God chose the Hebrews not because they knew Him especially but by His works He formed them into a people from which man would learn to know God--the God of Abraham, Jacob, etc...

So the writer(s) of Hebrews seem to be saying to me... God does not chose the descendants of the Hebrews because they were formed by His works, but rather He calls ( gathers to himself) man through Jesus Savior those who will have enough sense yet to hear, listen and follow Him -- a remnant who has not had a disastrous binge on the world's Kool aids. So God's favor or grace is afforded to those who hear and chose to walk with Him. It is not afforded to those who claim to be His by name or social circumstance alone or of a genealogical or social history and yet they cannot hear Him having long ago left his designs--and yet even continue to call themselves His for motives foreign to the Spirit that once formed them.

There is no finer event of grace, where a man or a woman can come into God's favor of a relationship with Him than at the foot of The Cross be they people who see themselves formed from God's works and yet they are blind to the Holy Spirit in the today of their lives and those foreign to Him in every way.

Artfuldodger said:

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him."

Romans 11:4-
And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

One group was chosen for their faith and the other group was chosen by grace and not works.
I wonder if it was because of the two different covenants they were under?

Click to expand...

I'm going to take an unmerited guess and say Baal is figurative of the antichrist. Everything else is in the OT yet I have not seen a figurative antichrist

1gr8bldr said:

I'm going to take an unmerited guess and say Baal is figurative of the antichrist. Everything else is in the OT yet I have not seen a figurative antichrist

Click to expand...

Could the Baal or false gods in Romans 11 be the ones in Romans 1?
They knew God yet exchanged worshiping him for gods with the images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Regardless the remnant was chosen by grace in Romans 11 vs the earlier account where there was a remnant chosen for not bowing to Baal.

Artfuldodger said:

Could the Baal or false gods in Romans 11 be the ones in Romans 1?
They knew God yet exchanged worshiping him for gods with the images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Regardless the remnant was chosen by grace in Romans 11 vs the earlier account where there was a remnant chosen for not bowing to Baal.

Click to expand...

I do not know. I looked it over again..... There are many parts even of the NT that I can't attach to the OT, therefore, I gloss over them. Romans 1 looks like Sodom where Lot was. The mention of "approved of those who do" seems to be in contrast with Lot who was troubled by what he saw....... But to offer his daughter to a gang rape..... I will never be able to digest that unless it was figurative but we have no indication of that. So once I hit a snag like that, it all breaks down and I almost wonder why I would invest in trying to figure it out

1gr8bldr said:

I do not know. I looked it over again..... There are many parts even of the NT that I can't attach to the OT, therefore, I gloss over them. Romans 1 looks like Sodom where Lot was. The mention of "approved of those who do" seems to be in contrast with Lot who was troubled by what he saw....... But to offer his daughter to a gang rape..... I will never be able to digest that unless it was figurative but we have no indication of that. So once I hit a snag like that, it all breaks down and I almost wonder why I would invest in trying to figure it out

Click to expand...

Yep, sometimes we have to just move on.

Oh, I think I see what I did not quite understand.

Are you seeing the "not bowing to Baal" as an action initiated by men but approved to God then, because of their actions?

Yes, that would become a quagmire, I think.

I cannot so easily separate faith and grace at all, at least in any manner that would say "some men have faith, and some must be saved by grace". It, for me now, is always a grace that allows men to "see" beyond the natural in any exercise of that faith that can be seen in action. It is always initiated in God, by God, through God alone toward man, that allows any sight at all...that would lead to any man who might demonstrate his faith.

Yes, this also in part creates its own seeming quagmire which we face in arguments against such a God whose ways are past searching out, to the accusation of a capriciousness. But, I believe, in each of us is a reluctance to trust, a thing of rebellion to be exposed and uprooted in the most radical of ways (the cross is a demonstration of the depths to which this thing must be addressed and defeated) that causes us to hesitate in obedience and trust, and this thing is "I prefer to know the why, before I agree to trust". It is not that we have not had experience with certain that have considered themselves "above" explaining themselves. (But isn't that precisely what we say we see when we say "Jesus is Lord"...? The presumptively included acknowledgement of "this is the total of Why") Everything pertaining to man's relationship to and with God...is found here, in Christ.

It seems always there in some measure to be dealt with, this "why"...of "what's in it for me?" If it actually is, as Jesus says "everything", then the matter does come down to either believing Jesus Christ knows of that which He speaks, or a defect of trust is discovered. In short, if it is not settled for us, and to whatever measure it is not settled "for us" that Jesus does indeed know, as no other we have ever heard (or could), we are found in a place of vacillation, equivocations...that are always painful.

We may easily admit in our confessions..."Jesus is always right"; and even in this having some sort of way of identifying one another, to one another. But the grace that has shown us this is always of a consistency through and through, truest in the truest sense of "true". (At least as words will allow expression) And we might say also "there is never found in Jesus Christ any equivocations as to anything said"...things are precisely as He says...it is the way...all things are. There is no "might be", no "I hope I'm right about this" in Jesus Christ...yet we know, if we have followed at all...Jesus does not in any way despise hope.

It's almost a strange thing, even to the believer...how that even when having planted our flag, so to speak, staked all (so to speak) on the Lord and His word being true, there yet remains some matter we find of resistances. For this, the cross remains the only remedy, always. Deeper in truth than we have yet seen to that uprooting of a thing we must be disabused of, to a settlement beyond of all those things that resist..."Because...God alone...is God". It is what children must hear...somewhere along the way, somewhere in their endless "whys" aimed at satisfying their own understanding...settled finally beyond further question "I am the Dad, and that alone is always...the why".

Oh yes...we know of a man who hoped to take the shortcut to see, to grasp at the seeing, but for us, another has been presented. Always walking in "the Father is greater than I", and never for a moment "walking out of that" even to the cross. And yes, for Him, as also to us, there is a time of bewilderment...dare we despise it? This...His experience plainly stated, plainly attested to "now is my soul troubled even unto death". Oh, outside it, we may say, as the disciples when asked, "Can you drink of my cup?"..."Sure!", and this is not a 'bad" confession, at all. But in it, we come to something we didn't know before...and we are made very glad One has walked there before, ensuring safe passage through what no man might otherwise bear, and perhaps something gets further settled as to "first" word, and final word.