Jesus' deity was divinely limited

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Please don't take this as an attempt to offend, but exactly how did you come about your particular theology? If by the instruction of others, then your basis for your beliefs is no more valid than those you criticize in your first paragraph.

Secondly, do you really believe that making an educated decision regarding a theological point based on a thread in this forum is a wise idea?

Let me bottomline this issue as I see it. Your theological position makes little sense to me. I would not trust my eternal soul to the "Jesus" you propose. My study of Scripture does not allow for the possibility of Jesus not being God, incarnate. That poses a number of problems for those who seek to define Jesus based on human perspective. Only a divine revelation can "open the eyes of the blind" to who Jesus was, and is, and always will be.

The idea that the dual natures of Jesus of Nazareth can be reconciled outside of Scripture is, to my mind, impossible. Can anyone truly comprehend how He could be 100% God and 100% man? Does anyone grasp what spirit really is, especially divine spirit? It appears that yours is an attempt to humanize the very God of all creation. It appears that your focus on God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son) is that they are very distinct and separate entities, yet Scripture repeatedly states the position that Father and Son are one, have been from eternity past.

Did God choose to be incarnated in the person of Jesus, for the purpose of redeeming His lost ones that will believe in the Son? If not, then what was His intent?

Did God, in His desire to understand and change the minds and hearts of men, of His own willful action, limit His incarnate expression? Scripture tells me that He set aside the glories of heaven, so that He would be accepted, first, as a man, and in time, as the Messiah, the perfect sacrifice for our redemption.

Friend, if this doesn't resonate with your understanding of Scripture, then you and Scripture are far apart.
My belief change was based on intense study of my own with no one's help. I purposed it this way because I did not want to give anyone any doubts until I was sure. Actually, You guys think that I am way off scripture. But if you choose a non biased, neutral panel to see who matches scripture and not traditions, who stays within the bounds of scripture, without having to use outside concepts such as dual nature, incarnation, hypostatic union and such, I know for sure who 's side they would uphold. Tradition, assumptions are hard to break. So I respect that you are confident in what you believe, I am the same. We are just discussing each other's positions
 

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
Friends, yall shouldn't have spent the whole night in this forum.
You need to get your beauty sleep.

:rofl:
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Biblical proof Jesus isn't God:

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
More Biblical proof:
At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24)
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Hey Art, The man Christ was tempted by Satan.The God Christ defeated Satan.The man Christ died on the cross.The God Christ rolled the stone away.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Hey Art, The man Christ was tempted by Satan.The God Christ defeated Satan.The man Christ died on the cross.The God Christ rolled the stone away.
The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?
Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God?
The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.
I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.
 

thedeacon

Senior Member
The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?
Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God?
The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.
I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.



The problem is, we can't grasp the fact that our human understanding is not capable of reaching Godly concepts.


There is some things we will never, never understand because it is simply not meant to be. Faith in God is accepting the things of God that is humanly impossible to even understand.
 

Israel

BANNED
We carry an earthly view of which we have all been severely indoctrinated.
Man...simply because he is a creature...is evil. That he became evil none of us would doubt...but was that not precisely due to the appeal (of an evil one...no...the evil one) to that precise notion? To be a creature of God is not "good" enough? Therefore put forth your hand to grasp at being like God? (Eat this fruit)

Therefore, it seems, some imagine you impugn Jesus when you call him a man.
Yet once, God called his creation good. Indeed, dare we agree with this scripture?
Gen_1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The problem I have come to see in my time in (if any) in the Lord is this...we want (by collusion with an enemy) to take those word (the notion of goodness) to ourselves...that is...we are tricked into thinking we can take them to ourselves...for ourselves. But this comfort never lasts for it is based upon the lie that our own consciousness of ourselves is sufficient, to ourselves.

But we were made for fellowship. The precise fellowship the Father and son have always enjoyed, and into which we are now invited. God the Father is very pleased with Jesus, indeed, he finds him very good. And he is not at all...in the least bit...ashamed of him being a man.
He is THE man.
Even a man of whom God boasts.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?
Human flesh can't withstand the glory of heaven IMO, scripture does tell us this flesh can't look God in the face.

Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God?
No, Christ God sits beside Father God...You ever had a spiritual out of body experience?

The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.
Moses saw Gods backside, as He walked away from him..Since you insist on literal interpretation how do you suppose, Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden? Gen. 3:8


I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.

I never read anywhere that Jesus planned on coming back to Earth...except for those fictional "left behind" series of books. Scripture tells us He's coming back, and we're called up .. to meet him in the sky.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!...
and the Cherubim is still on station.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
I wonder if for our scripture we do not make for our Lord a tomb?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
The Judgement seat of Christ-Jesus is the judge.
The Great White Throne Judgement-God is the judge.

This shows a seperation of God & Jesus in Heaven. It also shows some kind of diety of Jesus as a mere man would not have the ability to judge all the Christians.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
This is simply incorrect. Both Mary and Joseph trace their lineages through David, back to Abraham. Both were of the tribe of Judah. You really need to do some research. Here's a start:

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/geneal.htm
If he is not Joseph's blood son then he is not Son of David. If, Mary is of David's lineage, and that is an if, it does not matter. No where in the bible does the woman's lineage count for anything
 

Israel

BANNED
I wonder if for our scripture we do not make for our Lord a tomb?

Yes.
Is Jesus liberated in us by our study and endeavors or have we placed even more constraints upon his manifestation by our lawyerly requirements?
 

gtparts

Senior Member
If he is not Joseph's blood son then he is not Son of David. If, Mary is of David's lineage, and that is an if, it does not matter. No where in the bible does the woman's lineage count for anything
You obviously either did not read the linked article or you did and completely disregarded it or didn't understand it.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste; a closed mind is just a terrible thing.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
You obviously either did not read the linked article or you did and completely disregarded it or didn't understand it.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste; a closed mind is just a terrible thing.
It did not come up when I tried it but I will try again.
 

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
A scripture text to ponder.

John 6:“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
 
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