Paradox of evil in religion

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Must we have evil in order to have good?

Most of the worlds religion had good such as a god or gods and most have evil entities as well. They are always at battle.

How do we reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is, in either absolute or relative terms, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent?

Maybe there is an omnipotence paradox.

This last school killing has me thinking about evilness.
How is it related to all of the world religions?
 

JimD

Senior Member
The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? Luke 5:23
-------------------------------

It depends of what we say, maybe?

a)Maybe if we say our sins are forgiven than good is no longer qualified by evil, but by the good act of forgiving.

b)If we say "get up and walk" to ourselves and with others, then we only have our own motivations and will to compare.

In (a) evil ( the knowledge of and causes) is not required to know good.
 
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Israel

BANNED
The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.
Surely that is a part of the reasoning.
Can a deeper thing be at work than what the mind easily grasps as "reason"?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Surely that is a part of the reasoning.
Can a deeper thing be at work than what the mind easily grasps as "reason"?

Some Frenchman once wrote " The heart has reasons, that reason does not know."

One group seems to point to reasons known, the other to those unknown or the effects of the disconnect on a consensus of what constitutes reason, the reasonable and the unreasonable. Maybe.

Basically when I read the word, it speaks to me of two lovers. One lover forgives ( gives) and the other does not ( takes). The lover that takes cowers from evil and knows well the poisons of evil, even taking little pills of it to make himself, herself immune. The lover that gives stands boldly for the light of love, not cowering to any evil or illness or deformity caused by it--the motivation is of the power of everlasting both of the past, the present and the future-- as seen beyond the minds forged by sinning.

" But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

These are Paul's instruction to his fellow worker Timothy. I think it is a good example of how love can be championed--- yet sadly perverted. Such love is of poor light, poor reasoning. There are other reasonings that their hearts do not know--despite believing for assessments that one has the market cornered on reason.

So what is to grasp then? Perhaps it is not reason itself. Perhaps reason alone is a poor motivator of people. People are motivated by love perhaps? Perhaps love is the ring in reason's nose? Now those rings? Who's rings lower and raise our reasons? Is it something any reasonable man can come up with? Is it something a lover, even crazy in love, and a crazy lover can come up with?
 
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Israel

BANNED
Some Frenchman once wrote " The heart has reasons, that reason does not know."

One group seems to point to reasons known, the other to those unknown or the effects of the disconnect on a consensus of what constitutes reason, the reasonable and the unreasonable. Maybe.

Basically when I read the word, it speaks to me of two lovers. One lover forgives ( gives) and the other does not ( takes). The lover that takes cowers from evil and knows well the poisons of evil, even taking little pills of it to make himself, herself immune. The lover that gives stands boldly for the light of love, not cowering to any evil or illness or deformity caused by it--the motivation is of the power of everlasting both of the past, the present and the future-- as seen beyond the minds forged by sinning.

" But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

These are Paul's instruction to his fellow worker Timothy. I think it is a good example of how love can be championed--- yet sadly perverted. Such love is of poor light, poor reasoning. There are other reasonings that their hearts do not know--despite believing for assessments that one has the market cornered on reason.

So what is to grasp then? Perhaps it is not reason itself. Perhaps reason alone is a poor motivator of people. People are motivated by love perhaps? Perhaps love is the ring in reason's nose? Now those rings? Who's rings lower and raise our reasons? Is it something any reasonable man can come up with? Is it something a lover, even crazy in love, and a crazy lover can come up with?
Last night I was moved to post this to FB.

You remind me how spirit speaks...even from deep within us, when "reason"...is not there for answer. What is, is. Needing no "reason" to be.

Jesus, as the ever present One has the wonderful ability to cause us to live in the present, in his presence. It is not that we are unfocused, we are simply focused on everything that is not now, not, therefore, real. Imaginations pull us into the future, regrets into the past...and they have for their allowed time, a sway. But Jesus, when come to be known as the one who was, and is, and is to come, inhabiting all...past present and future...sweetens all, and we want to know...where he always is, to us, now.
The gift of being told by the only one with authority to do so, "fear not", "take no thought for tomorrow..."...we eventually come to see as the gift of greatest relief...to restless and easily frightened souls.
Oh, fools though we may appear...we have learned this is our allowance and grace, and how precious it is.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Senior Member
I was raised Presbyterian, they don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. OK, He(double hockey sticks) [Really? In the religious forum?. Once of the reasons I left religion was that very question - how can you believe in Heaven if you don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I was raised Presbyterian, they don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. OK, He(double hockey sticks) [Really? In the religious forum?. Once of the reasons I left religion was that very question - how can you believe in Heaven if you don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored


Heaven or Paradise can be appreciated without the concept of Censored x's 6. Our origins in a state of happiness according to Genesis are not dependent on it-but rather on man's wholesome communion with his creator.
 
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Israel

BANNED
Heaven or Paradise can be appreciated without the concept of Censored x's 6. Our origins in a state of happiness according to Genesis are not dependent on it-but rather on man's wholesome communion with his creator.

Amen.
Where the eternal and true are not dependent upon the temporary and lie as a necessary foil.
 

swampstalker24

Senior Member
The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
- Epicurus
 

Israel

BANNED
OK, you guys have gotten me going on one of those things that I have never been convinced that I fully understand. I figure that when I’m supposed to get it, God will reveal what ever I’m missing. This may be the time, and you may be the conduit; if so, it would be foolish to let it pass. The issue is ultimate evil.



Gordon,
I’m right there with you. God is awesome; so awesome that, when viewed from our perspective, no third point comparison need be made. (I know, it started as heaven and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and I’m talking good and evil, but it’s working for me so far.)




Israel,
Are you saying that “the eternal and true are not dependent upon the temporary …”; and that anything opposing that which is eternal and true is necessarily temporary?

If that is correct, would it hold true that, while the opposition exists, it does not ultimately exist?

And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

And yet a little, and the wicked is not, And thou hast considered his place, and it is not.


As well you know, dearest brother, these matters are far more than "making a case", and among us more than matters of conjecture, pleasant things for conversation, or even interesting things for speculation. I see you tremble at his word...so any cleverness on my part I fear would be more than hastily answered to my displeasure.
I am not up to saying much in explanation, as I am not equipped, but having tasted that place (of which I am convinced you, and several others have been, if not reside in greater "at homeness" than I could even imagine...) I can in small part testify...it is always present, and now, in His presence.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

And yet a little, and the wicked is not, And thou hast considered his place, and it is not.


As well you know, dearest brother, these matters are far more than "making a case", and among us more than matters of conjecture, pleasant things for conversation, or even interesting things for speculation. I see you tremble at his word...so any cleverness on my part I fear would be more than hastily answered to my displeasure.
I am not up to saying much in explanation, as I am not equipped, but having tasted that place (of which I am convinced you, and several others have been, if not reside in greater "at homeness" than I could even imagine...) I can in small part testify...it is always present, and now, in His presence.

In the loneliness of this dark forest He provides shafts for relief,
Bless you brother.
 

Israel

BANNED
....which can be found in better ways.
Now, that is a remarkable statement. It surely implies a "way" against which measurements are weighed, an absolute of a way, while conceding the rest of the statement.
I too believe their is a better way than even the sum of all my own life, its experiences, its awarenesses and its conclusions.
The believing in "a way" and somehow falling short of it in absolute of practice is what may lead a man to touch grace.
And produce hope. And hope frees one from shame.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Now, that is a remarkable statement. It surely implies a "way" against which measurements are weighed, an absolute of a way, while conceding the rest of the statement.
I too believe their is a better way than even the sum of all my own life, its experiences, its awarenesses and its conclusions.
The believing in "a way" and somehow falling short of it in absolute of practice is what may lead a man to touch grace.
And produce hope. And hope frees one from shame.

Flipping in here this morning, sipping my coffee, I was caught by this.

"And hope frees one from shame."

And being flippant I thought, " I should ask the dude for scripture on this. Or some short essay, a testing of the spirit, the dude's spirit. Just in case he is secretly wise for being raked over hot coals."

But then I googled "shame" and "hope". And up comes this:


Romans 10:11 - As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 5:5 - And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

And then I thought, I will not ask him any display: No, no long winded web and watch him get stuck in it.

And then I though, what a strange man I am needing to google scripture to test spirits. What a strange brother I am, needing to tease a saint this way.

It is a good thing there is hope on earth as it is in heaven. :)

Good morning.

Our Father


Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

Since you seem to be on a roll, in the book so to speak, and this tread is about evil, What does " and lead us not into temptation" mean in the statement " and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."???

Is it simply this: Deliver us from evil and lead us not into temptation or is it something else? Can I be delivered from evil and still be lead into temptation? Ideas? Anyone? Scripture? The guy who wrote this stuff, or the one who first said it, what did he mean by "deliver us from evil" and " lead us not into temptation"? In what way(s) can this be?

Is it perhaps when we forgive with the forgiveness that is in Christ, that is in heaven, we are delivered from the temptation to answer evil with itself? and not answering with evil we are delivered of evil itself, or is there more?
 
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Israel

BANNED
Being all too familiar with feeling froggy, willing to poke, willing to "stick my hand in to see if this is for real"... I am not surprised anyone else ever feels so.
But finding the grace to admit it...as you did, well, that just ministers a grace to me I find myself in sore need of.

Grace to you, too, brother.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.
A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.

6
When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the Lord caused it?

7
Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.

8
The lion has roared—
who will not fear?
The Sovereign Lord has spoken—
who can but prophesy?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.

Spoken with the profound convictions of a true gentlemen such as the man General Stonewall Jackson, for example, and this is not trolling. :)

Rolling up a flank with the assurance of sacking the Cannanites all along while praising-- is not inconceivable as being genuine in a man's makeup.

Yet all things were made new in Christ--these things are understandable of a man's understanding.
 
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