Heaven and Free Will

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Well then who the heck is the original poster asking if not those who believe?

Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.
 

JB0704

The Original JB
I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.

Oh, we all think the rest are heretics. It kind-of goes with what we are discussing. You should see the whipping I am taking up in the hunting forum over deer limits :D I think I have made 2 mods, an admin, and a game biologist quite upset with me....unintentionally, for sure :O

That being said, I appreciate your honesty and convictions of your beliefs: extremely consistent even when uncomfortable, though I disagree with some of them.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.

No, Just how to arrive. "Religion" looks the other way when a true "death to self" by the power of Another is concerned. Which is why the cross trips up many a "religion" and most nay-sayers.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Well then we just have to guess at what you're getting at, right?
I hope not. I try to discuss these things in a way as to leave no guessing as to where I stand.
we've discussed over and over in the elect thread, you haven't
That is not my recollection of the thread. I was quite engaged.
Lord help Me Jesus, You died for Me, yet I am not important to you. That sort of belittles God's gift to us doesn't it?
No. If Christ died for you it is of utmost importance. It belittles Christ to claim that He accomplished salvation for all of mankind, but did not secure it.
I seek God because I need God
Does one continually seek God when one has God?
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
Does one continually seek God when one has God?

I don't know if I want to use the word seek, maybe I should say 'panteth'.....but yes I continually seek God. I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.

Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.

Saying 'God saves all His people', or 'God doesn't need you', even though I know what those quotes are intended for, other readers may get confused by that. And that may not matter to you, but it does to me....we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me. But then I'm not the judge...I'm just saying we are here to help people understand the gospel, not to feel comfortable enough to stir a pinch of confusion here and there into the pot but not comfortable enough to explain the root of that belief.
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.

No kiddin'

Would you then explain to me what the op was asking?
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.
Well said.
Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.
Sometimes when we are engaging in a point/counterpoint discussion, I am sure to be guilty.
we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me.
And I appreciate your admonishment. I try to be short and pointed with my comments. Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.
 

Asath

Senior Member
All well and good, reading the last several dozen posts, but all of this fulminating nonsense gets us no closer to the point. Loud and insistent is usually the opposite of well thought out and empirically true.

In order to put forward the idea of a 'Heaven,' it would be incumbent upon the person proposing such an idea to prove, at least by anecdotal evidence, that such a thing exists. That can't be done.

Just 'How' one achieves this fictitious fantasy is of no value if there is no such thing -- and there is not. There is not a single bit of anything at all that points us towards a 'Heaven,' aside some ancient stories that are contradictory at best and thoroughly conflicting under the most optimistic interpretations of them.

One's 'free-will,' on the other hand, is just that -- the ability to evaluate the actual world around them; to freely question the motives of those who would direct ones thoughts and deeds; the ability and willingness to ask that the truth be demonstrated PRIOR to asking one to bow down before it; the freedom to investigate other lines of thought; and the ability to reject clear nonsense that does not align with genuine observation.

Any 'free-will' argument that begins with the contention that, "God gave me the ability to reject Him, and thus live in Sin, and thus condemn myself," is so internally self-contradicting as to be absurd. Either you believe in your God or you do not -- there can be no 'But, only IF' involved. This is not a question involving hundreds of thousands of subtle shades of meanings and interpretations -- it is a Yes or No question.

If the God of myth and legend is as described, then there is not, and by definition cannot be such a thing as free-will. If it is put forward that one HAS the ability to choose, but that ability was one that was GIVEN, then it ceases immediately to be an ability, and is yet another precondition, granted not as a true 'freedom,' but more as a 'rat in a maze' sort of test.

At that point the question circles back on itself, and has only the meaning one wishes to lend. Here is where 'Belief' parts company with 'Truth.'

You can't have a 'Heaven' unless it can be shown that there is such a thing -- and that can't be shown. And you can't have 'free-will' if it was never your own to begin with, and was granted as a 'gift' from above.

You can only pick one -- not both. Freedom? Or God?
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.

Well I'm sure that's me....I'm the infamous, Ramblin Rose...lol. I just don't want to leave people hanging with that ?huh? look on their face. Not any one that posts here, but those who just lurk and read and never say a word or ask a question. Lurking is not a bad thing, either. If perhaps they are curious and know nothing about the bible, then they haven't a clue as to what you're talking about, even though most of us around here, do. Then as soon as they ask an honest question and get jumped by the wolves then they run away and never come back.

See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet...and had a whole other effect on them....like I see every day on here....not you personally.....goes something like this.........

'well if they/you (lurkers) don't get it, they/you should go read your bible'......Jesus will say "good work my good a faithful servent, thanks for your time"....eh?

That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet
See Asath's post above. I appreciate the time and effort he put in it. Very well thought out and articulate. He could just have said "If heaven exist, prove it. If God exist, free-will does not." But in doing so, one does not have room to ridicule or demean. I do not think it is intentional, just inherent in the rambling.

That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.
Sometimes the best place to be is out of line. ;)
 

BrettJ

Member
Brett, you're wasting your time, just like the original poster, nobody really cares what we think, they just bait us so they can smack us upside the head with how stupid we are.

We will have free will in heaven. We won't be robots. We will enjoy everything about life. We will spend most of forever on a perfect earth. We will have all the pros in life and none of the cons. We will be able to hunt, and fish and no one gets killed accidentally, nothing will be polluted. I could say more of what I personally think heaven would be like, as the op asked, but that would be a waste of time....someone is here with a stick to ::ke:

You are probably right. These people really dont understand and dont want to understand. They think that heaven is like the world. They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin. In our perfection we will only want to worship God. They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do. He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life. Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes. Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ. If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us, well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation. I hope they like it HOT.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
You are probably right. These people really dont understand and dont want to understand. They think that heaven is like the world. They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin. In our perfection we will only want to worship God. They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do. He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life. Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes. Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ. If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us, well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation. I hope they like it HOT.

I am fascinated that YOU understand. YOU "get it". You know how it all goes and yet if you were to have a conversation on here with ten other Christians none of you would agree on everything even though they "understand,get it, and know".
I'd love to know how many times God has actually told you how it really is and how many times you have visited heaven.
I suspect that only in your own personal mind do these things exist.
 

BrettJ

Member
Impressive for someone who has never been to heaven or has ever talked to God. I bet Heaven is EXACTLY as you want it to be, probably not a coincidence.

No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible. I have talked to God. I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me. He talks to me through His word the bible.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible. I have talked to God. I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me. He talks to me through His word the bible.

Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it". I am just not easily influenced by mans words.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Yeah,I'll stay with my wife......Morgan Fairchild.....
 
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