Buckshot: Minimum Pattern = Maximum Effective Range

JohnK · Jul 22, 2014

I guess I'm doing something wrong because none of the buckshot loads, adjustable chokes or either of the 835 shotguns I tried would put the majority of the payload into a predrawn 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Add a sight and it looks much better but one would have to pattern to use one.

http://www.buckmasters.com/buckshot-today.aspx

lolliepop · Aug 16, 2014

the deer is recovered - often only due to canine assistance. However, I don't think for a minute that anyone on this forum would want that to be a regular part of their hunting experience.

recovery due to canine assistance is expected from my hounds. that dude never run dogs

.60 caliber buckshot · Sep 20, 2014

“Patterning your shotgun is as important as sighting in your rifle-- until you do it there is no way to tell where your gun shoots and how it really performs.” John Haviland

The dogs may run the deer by you, but it is your responsibility to kill the deer quickly with solid multiple pellet hits to the vitals.

robert carter · Dec 23, 2014

Growing up I did not get to kill a deer with dogs but did all of my hunting with a single barrel 12 gauge 28" mod. choked. I did`nt waste shells patterning it and bought what they had in town. I treated my deer hunting with it kinda like my bird hunting. A fella learns when not to shoot at a dove or when a Turkey is too far or even a squirrel. I did`nt have to measure anything I just took shots at a RANGE I knew I would kill at. I never just slung lead hoping. I`m sure most all that hunt with buckshot shoot within the range of their equipment and have learned that range through experience. Kind of like the way I hunt now with a longbow. If he is too far there is always tomorrow. A beginner cannot understand this and a fella just wanting to kill and not hunt will just sling lead. We all miss sometimes but must take ethical shots if we intend to feel good about what we are doing. Happy Holidays all.RC

mikelowery9 · Dec 23, 2014

Been dog hunting for 25 years(I'm 29) I have seen deer killed at 130+ paces and I have seen deer shot at 10 yards and run off never to be seen again. It's dog hunting your never going to predict where they are going to pop out or how slow/fast they will be traveling. My personal opinion is patterning a shotgun is a waste of time. If you shoot your gun enough you will know when the right time to pull the trigger is. Your going to miss running dogs, that is all there is to it. If someone tells you they never miss, well they retired after the first kill or you have a liar on your hands. Best bet to be succesful is to get somewhere you can see,hide,and be quite at the same time. Consistently killing deer behind dogs isn't something you calculate or measure, it comes from years of experience. Once you figure it out you will know what I mean. Until then sit back and enjoy the race.

DogHunter4Life · Dec 24, 2014

good post mike...dog hunting you get to know your gun very well... esp if you use it to shoot duck, dove, turkeys, and deer.. i trust my gun 100% and trust my shooting with that gun 100%

-i have let alot of bucks go because of road being too narrow, or not knowing if someone is on the other side of the clear cut, or just not comfortable with the shot...but i've shot at deer well over the recommended distance because of probably never seeing that deer again (i have killed 3 over 100 yards and 2 were running).

-my eyesight is not the best in the world so if i can see horns and its a safe shot...i'm shooting without a doubt.

GunnSmokeer · Dec 25, 2014

ethical

I donno, DogHunter4life.... taking 100 yard shots at moving deer with a shotgun you've never patterned (you told us that earlier in this thread) doesn't sound ethical.

Sure, you may kill some deer that far out. And you'll wound some deer. Some of the wounded deer will suffer for a while and eventually die or be too weak to fight off predators. Some of the wounded deer will recover and be healthy again.

You wrote:
Any real dog hunter knows you kill some, you wound some, and you flat out miss some. If you can't stand it, then don't go or don't pull the trigger!!

While I agree that we can't guarantee any particular outcome of taking a shot, I think we owe a duty of care and consideration to the animals we hunt to take them cleanly with a humane kill. Not pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning from the .30 round lead ball in the deer's bowels.

choot at 'em all and let God decide if you eat venison or not just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.

__________________

JustUs4All · Dec 26, 2014

To the folks who seem to be questioning the ethics of shotgunning running deer or one that you consider to be at too far distant:
Have you ever been dove or duck hunting?
Before you went, did you pattern your gun with the brand and load of shells you were using that day? They are all different, even different lots of the same shell.
Did you do this test at every range at which you might try a bird?
Do you only take shots at birds that you know for certain you will place pellets where they will produce a clean quick kill?
If you do all of that, have you ever been guilty of a quick follow on shot (or two) at a bird that you have already missed once?
When you do make that crippling shot where the bird sets and glides into the tree line where the briars make for tough going, do you turn your back on the birds that are flying in and go after the cripple? (The deer dogs do.)

Hunting deer with dogs and shotguns is kin to hunting quail or rabbit only more ground is covered and things develop quickly. It is not at all like hunting deer without dogs. Remember, in those situations where a rifle or bow hunter would be backing out and trying to find a dog, the dog hunter already has a dog on the track. Slowing the deer is frequently all it takes.

GunnSmokeer · Dec 26, 2014

100 yards

The issue isn't just that the deer is moving.

It's the distance. 100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range. It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern. You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself.

Would you hunt deer with a .32 caliber semi-auto pistol?

Suppose you could dump all 8 shots at a running deer in 2 seconds, before he got out of range, and you could keep all your shots in a 5-foot group at that distance?

Is that really so much different from hunting with shotgun with 00 buckshot which throws a 60" pattern at 100 yards?

Either way, EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM, you might get one or two hits on the animal,
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

Each projectile on its own will be weak. 70 grain hunk of lead moving at about 800 fps (that far away).

***************

P.S. Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability demand that some birds are hit non-lethally. But I DO pattern my guns with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.

JustUs4All · Dec 26, 2014

GunnSmokeer said:
Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability demand that some birds are hit non-lethally. But I DO pattern my guns with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.

You realize that you just admitted that you were willing to accept a certain level of:

GunnSmokeer said:
pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning....

choot at 'em all and let God decide if you eat... or not just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.

__________________

Imagine how much more humane it would be and how much more likely would be the quick death of those poor unfortunate birds if one had a partner on their trail already who could follow up on the errant shot and help bring the quarry to hand.

Deer doggers incorporate that help as an integral part of their hunting method.

DogHunter4Life · Dec 26, 2014

It's the distance. 100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.
-i've seen it done and done it myself. so yes i think its possible and i will try it every time if it is a safe shot

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range. It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern. You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself.
-i test my gun every year. i test it in the field of course and i've shot it enough with the load that i use for the past 6 years. i know what my gun can and cant do

Either way, EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM, you might get one or two hits on the animal,
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

-it only takes one little tiny shot from that OO load. i've see deer taken down with just one pellet in the neck out of 5 shots.

shooting running deer with a shotgun is a skill not just luck. 9 times out of 10 when i think back on one i've just killed, i cant even remember where i aimed or if i even closed one of my eyes. it just comes natural because i've been doing it for 25 years

.60 caliber buckshot · Jan 12, 2015

Spurious argument: Birdshot vs Buckshot

JustUs4All:

Birdshot patterns are many times larger than the intended target and this works because there are hundreds of pellets in each shell. This is reflected in the traditional 30 inch pattern with sufficient pattern density to take a bird any place within the effective pattern spread at a given distance with proper choke and load.

Buckshot patterns are directed at targets many times larger than any bird. Indeed, due to the very limited number of pellets, sucessfully using buckshot is more about directing a majority of those pellets into the vital zone.

Nannyman · Jan 16, 2015

I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands.
To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry.
Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same.
I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right.
It takes a little time and effort. A little money. It can be done. All someone must do is care enough to do something right for a change.
Less than perfect shot opportunities happen often in dog hunting. A hunter and his rig that are not the best they can be only adds to the possibility of a wounded and unrecovered animal, which is very offensive to me.

Charles Emerson Winchester once said. "I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on."
A wise man.

Dustin · Jan 17, 2015

Nannyman said:
What is described above is not true patterning. All you have done is take a shell you think you like and see what the pattern looks like.
True patterning includes multiple loads and or chokes if your gun uses chokes. Certain guns and or chokes like certain shells or size of buckshot.
Longer barrels seem to produce more consistent patterns with a wider variety of shells. I started checking buckshot patterning when I went to a 21" barrel. I love how easy it is to get into and out of truck and in heavy cover. It just took more pattern work to get consistent patterns.
Some guns don't like OOB. They may like OOO or #1. If you like a size check multiple brands to get what you want.
If you must use X brand then check the different size buckshot to get patterns you want.
At some point in life, you have to do the things required to do something right.

Nannyman said:
I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands.
To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry.
Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same.
I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right.
It takes a little time and effort. A little money. It can be done. All someone must do is care enough to do something right for a change.
Less than perfect shot opportunities happen often in dog hunting. A hunter and his rig that are not the best they can be only adds to the possibility of a wounded and unrecovered animal, which is very offensive to me.

Charles Emerson Winchester once said. "I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on."
A wise man.

You're missing what everyone is saying... those shells ARE the most consistent AFTER PATTERNING, and you STILL get that ONE shell out of every 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 whatever that acts nothing like the other ones and throws a pattern twice as big as all the others, there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots.

If everyone made every effort they could to make sure there equipment was the best we would be out there with 2 ga shotguns slinging a 1/2lb of lead every shot instead of 20 ga and 12 ga

.60 caliber buckshot · Jan 17, 2015

Dustin said:
...When I first got that Mossberg I patterned it, out of 25 shots of the Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck, 6 of those shots were "doughnuts", 4 had flyers everywhere, 14 put 5 pellets or more inside a 24" circle at 40 yds and 1 put all 15 pellets inside a 10" circle at 40 yds... that's why patterning isn't as important at some people say, what happens if one of those doughnuts happens when I shoot at a deer? but, what if the perfect pattern happens? That's the variables that can happen in a real world experience.

Dustin said:

You're missing what everyone is saying... those shells ARE the most consistent AFTER PATTERNING, and you STILL get that ONE shell out of every 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 whatever that acts nothing like the other ones and throws a pattern twice as big as all the others, there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots.

Click to expand...

From the first quote above, it is painfully obvious that the buckshot load, the 12/10 gauge overbore barrel and the unmentioned choke tube, that you tried, was a woefully inconsistent mismatched combination. The Remington 3.5" 00B round, most likely, did not have a gas seal section capable of sufficient expansion to seal and stabilize the load in a 12 gauge with a 10 gauge size overbore barrel. There was no mention of further testing with any other buckshot load or identified choke constriction in your Mossberg 835 shotgun.

As for the second quote above:

Yes, with mass-produced, machine loaded shotshells, there is indeed the possibility of a damaged gas seal, a folded over wad petal or other problem that occasionally makes it past quality control.

Yes, you are quite correct that "..there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots." That is why pattern testing is all about averages, (which is also why we fire groups when testing rifles.)

Dustin · Jan 18, 2015

.60 caliber buckshot said:
From the first quote above, it is painfully obvious that the buckshot load, the 12/10 gauge overbore barrel and the unmentioned choke tube that you tried, was a woefully inconsistent mismatched combination. The Remington 3.5" 00B round, most likely, did not have a gas seal section capable of sufficient expansion to seal and stabilize the load in a 12 gauge with a 10 gauge overbore barrel. There was no mention of your testing any other buckshot loads or choke constrictions in that shotgun.

Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.

The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc.

At the time Pattern master (I cant remember off hand what size the choke was, I could check for you if it matters) and Remington 3.5" 00 patterned the best, Winchester 3.5" #4 was second best and Remington 2 3/4" 00 was third, all with the pattern master choke. The comp n choke was the second best throwing the Remington 2 3/4 00 the best and better than the pattern master did with the same shell.

Since my last post I've had a choke tube made by a guy that makes card shoot chokes, I can't remember what size i had him bore the final size to but again I can check if you'd like (it's just tight enough that if you take 3 00 pellets on a table and stick the choke tube over them it'll pick em up but not deform them), the barrel is a 22" barrel, with a 6" extension tube that has straight rifling cut in it, and the 3" choke on the end for a total of 31" of barrel, that combo throws a 20-24" pattern with Remington 3.5" 00 at 50 yds most times.

.60 caliber buckshot · Jan 18, 2015

Dustin,

Well, it looks like you have invested a great deal of effort into getting that 835 to pattern well!

I certainly respect that.

Dustin said:
Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.

The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc.

At the time Pattern master (I cant remember off hand what size the choke was, I could check for you if it matters) and Remington 3.5" 00 patterned the best, Winchester 3.5" #4 was second best and Remington 2 3/4" 00 was third, all with the pattern master choke. The comp n choke was the second best throwing the Remington 2 3/4 00 the best and better than the pattern master did with the same shell.

Since my last post I've had a choke tube made by a guy that makes card shoot chokes, I can't remember what size i had him bore the final size to but again I can check if you'd like (it's just tight enough that if you take 3 00 pellets on a table and stick the choke tube over them it'll pick em up but not deform them), the barrel is a 22" barrel, with a 6" extension tube that has straight rifling cut in it, and the 3" choke on the end for a total of 31" of barrel, that combo throws a 20-24" pattern with Remington 3.5" 00 at 50 yds most times.

Nannyman · Jan 20, 2015

Man I wish I had known you would go that far. For the cost of all those shells and chokes you would be shooting TSS Buck. I shot a deer a few years ago at 80yds. 9 pass thru and a dozen pellets in the deer. Most in the far side skin. Hit the ground like dropped from a plane.
You will never find a pellet just flat against bone. It crushes all bones.

grouper throat · Jan 21, 2015

Why not just shoot a smaller-caliber rifle with a holographic sight like an AR15? You can shoot five shots fast and fairly accurate and not worry about having to shoot buckshot at all. Plus the down range penetration/accuracy is vastly superior.

ishootlittlebucks · Jan 21, 2015

Dustin said:
Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.

The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc.

At the time Pattern master (I cant remember off hand what size the choke was, I could check for you if it matters) and Remington 3.5" 00 patterned the best, Winchester 3.5" #4 was second best and Remington 2 3/4" 00 was third, all with the pattern master choke. The comp n choke was the second best throwing the Remington 2 3/4 00 the best and better than thepattern master did with the same shell.

Since my last post I've had a choke tube made by a guy that makes card shoot chokes, I can't remember what size i had him bore the final size to but again I can check if you'd like (it's just tight enough that if you take 3 00 pellets on a table and stick the choke tube over them it'll pick em up but not deform them), the barrel is a 22" barrel, with a 6" extension tube that has straight rifling cut in it, and the 3" choke on the end for a total of 31" of barrel, that combo throws a 20-24" pattern with Remington 3.5" 00 at 50 yds most times.

I'm all for patterning a shotgun, but I would have found a different gun before I went that far. At least you have a gun that shoots good now.

Buckshot: Minimum Pattern = Maximum Effective Range

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