Red wolves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

The link above is a very interesting read! Now Im starting to think I may have something more similar to mixbreed "brushwolves" than coyotes. I don't know where the idea that coyotes are solitaire creatures came from but they definately are not at my farm. I guarantee you that I could get a couple different packs of 5-10 howling tonight and we often see them running through the woods 3-5 at the time. I have only ever seen just one on 2 occasions. Also they do hit those low base notes when they get to howling and you'd swear there was a wolf in there somewhere. I shot a big male a couple weeks back that topped out at 60lbs!

The article I provided the link to says that red wolves are 76-80% coyote and 24-20% grey wolf. IF thats the case there could be so much resemblance you don't know what you've got! Check it out!

chehawknapper said:

So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.

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http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Osmanthus+americana

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Search_Use.aspx?glossary=Fruit

With all this great weather in SOWEGA lately I have been spending time on the computer....for those who are interested google Canis Lupus niger floridanus.....it is the extinct black florida wolf...the last of which held out until the 20th century in south GA. Just a thought here, they ain't extinct. Oh yeah, they are one of three sub groupings of red wolves. At one time they were thought to be some strange southeastern type of coyote, but that theory was debunked (in the 40s)

I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs. There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.

I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago. The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive. All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.

According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.

chehawknapper said:

According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.

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Yep. The evidence is all around us.

I agree. And the DNA studies show wolf DNA, not dog DNA, in our eastern "coyotes." These critters commonly get over 50 pounds here, and come in a variety of wolf colors, and pack hunt. The last "officially documented" gray wolf kill in my county was in the 1920's, but most of the old-timers around here when I was growing up swore that there were still a few wolves lurking back in the mountains.

The Longhunter said:

I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs. There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.

I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago. The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive. All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.

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U of FLA genetic studies show that the coy-dog hype is nothing more than a myth. Recent studies show little or no domestic dog dna but show varying amount of wolf dna. The "black coyote" you shot was more canis lupus niger floridanus than dog...I would bet you just about anything it had no dog dna. Check out Bartram's description of the florida black wolf from the late 18th century....black with females having a white chest spot and the size of a small wolf....I know the black "yotes" I have harvested meet the size and color described by W. Bartram. It should further be noted that not only Bartram wrote of these black wolves of the southeast...Aldo Leopold did too along with many more early American naturalist.

If, in fact there were any genetic studies done by UGA to back up what you are saying, please post a link, because every genetic study I have seen counters what you said UGA claims. I have yet to see a genetic study supporting the myth of the coy-dog.

Why is it that is us south Georgians like me, Ben and Nic who really believe this...it should noted that I do know us three have been harvesting these brush wolves since they started showing up in the mid/late 70s.

chehawknapper said:

According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.

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I often wonder....why did they start showing up in numbers in the SOWEGA plantation belt and flint river drainage before they did west of us? Bet you a nickle to a dollar that there were some florida wolves hanging out in the area and when the deer and hog population took off...about the time the brush wolves showed up...I would also point out that Ben, Nic and I have a few certified red wolves to look at on a regular basis here at chehaw and I know that I have been pushing this since I laid eyes on them...they look identical in size and shape along with color at times to most of the ones I started catching in traps back in the 70s. I believe Ben felt (don't know though) the same once he laid eyes on them.

Be hard to convince me this is a coyote. This one is from Lower Worth County, right across the dirt road from Wiregrass. Back in the 80s.

Another thing I wonder is if brush wolves are so eager to breed with dogs, why is there no proof that they bred or breed with Carolina dogs or any of the pariah dogs the Indians in this part of the country had? They didn`t.

I caught my first black coyote in Clay Co. around 30 years ago( I still have that brain tanned hide). I had never heard of a black coyote and remembered Bartram's comment about the "black wolves of Florida". I went back and reread that section and started researching Red Wolves and wolves in general. I never did find an instance of a black coyote west of the Mississippi. I just kind of put 2 and 2 together. It is the only logical reason for these black coyotes showing up. The black phase red wolves were never completely gone but were so few in number that they bred with the coyotes that started showing up. I have been expressing my theory ever since.

chehawknapper said:

I caught my first black coyote in Clay Co. around 30 years ago( I still have that brain tanned hide). I had never heard of a black coyote and remembered Bartram's comment about the "black wolves of Florida". I went back and reread that section and started researching Red Wolves and wolves in general. I never did find an instance of a black coyote west of the Mississippi. I just kind of put 2 and 2 together. It is the only logical reason for these black coyotes showing up. The black phase red wolves were never completely gone but were so few in number that they bred with the coyotes that started showing up. I have been expressing my theory ever since.

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That`s a nice skin too.

Something else I`ve noticed too, and I`m sure you and Jay have too, Ben, is that around here, where we have a healthy deer herd, the brush wolves haven`t decimated the population. More than once, I watched deer feed in the field across the road from the house, while a coyote mouse hunted at the same time.

Hey Nick, along that same line of thinking, how come you never hear about coyotes interbreeding with dogs out west - only in the east?

chehawknapper said:

Hey Nick, along that same line of thinking, how come you never hear about coyotes interbreeding with dogs out west - only in the east?

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I remember the lesson a wise man taught me once. Why breed with a stranger, when you have your own kind? That dog is a competitor for the same food, so they are killed. And eaten themselves.

Jay, I remember when they first started showing up. I had to change hardware real quick. I found parts to my 1 1/2 coilspring fox traps scattered over about a 10' area. Base plates were completely sprung so that the bent up ears on the jaws didn't matter.

redneck_billcollector said:

U of FLA genetic studies show that the coy-dog hype is nothing more than a myth.

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A myth you say. Sort of like UF football.

I always promote never letting the facts interfere with a well held theory, but just maybe you should read some of this.

http://www.carolinadogs.org/news/augusta.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/science/a-dog-that-goes-way-back.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But the problem is that some of the wilder dogs have mated with other breeds — local dogs and even coyotes. ... In the essential narrative of early American natural history, William Bartram’s 1791 book “Bartram’s Travels,” the author runs across a Seminole Indian maintaining some horses and writes: “One occurrence, remarkable here, was a troop of horse under the control and care of a single black dog, which seemed to differ in no respect from the wolf of Florida, except his being able to bark as the common dog.”

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I first became involved with Carolina Dogs in 2007 after adopting a 14 week old pup from Central Florida, named Hailey. Hailey behaved and looked very different from any other dogs I worked with in rescue and later, as I worked as a veterinary technician. Hailey was just shy of a year old before I discovered what she really was. Numerous people asked us if our dog was part coyote or even wolf, they said she just looked wild. One day, somebody told us she looked like a dingo. Not sure of what a Dingo was or looked like, we searched for images and information. After discovering that Hailey did have a striking resemblance to Australia’s wild dog, we stumbled across information about the “American Dingo”, AKA Carolina Dog.

After having her verified by the breed founder, Dr. I Lehr Brisbin, as a coyote/Carolina Dog hyrbid I became hooked. After finishing my Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Central Florida, my husband and I moved to Savannah, Georgia in March 2010 to begin my work with these dogs as a graduate student for Dr. Brisbin. I found and adopted two more wild caught dogs, a female named Hannah from Wetumpka, Alabama, and a male named Nero from Eastern Tennessee.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog

Now, they're going through a whole new set of changes as they adapt to the modern landscape of North America. Genetic studies7 show that some coyotes are even interbreeding with dogs, which could lead to a different sort of hybrid animal. Researchers are struggling to keep up with the animals and their impacts as they lope into more new regions. http://www.nature.com/news/rise-of-the-coyote-the-new-top-dog-1.10635

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There is also substantial DNA evidence that the red wolf is a fairly recent hybrid of the gray wolf and coyote, and not a genetically distinct species. That discussion is beyond the scope of this conversation.

Nicodemus said:

That`s a nice skin too.

Something else I`ve noticed too, and I`m sure you and Jay have too, Ben, is that around here, where we have a healthy deer herd, the brush wolves haven`t decimated the population. More than once, I watched deer feed in the field across the road from the house, while a coyote mouse hunted at the same time.

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I've observed roughly the same thing. I've also heard tell of many a coyote having infant hawg in their gullets.

The Longhunter, I am very familiar with the "carolina dog"....we know indians had dogs before the eruopeans arrived...from what I understand about them is that they are from those dogs. The Aztecs had chiuahuas prior to europeans.....that doesn't mean they are part coyote. Domestic dogs are decendant from Canis lupus, not Canis latrans.

One of the articles you linked said they are more wolf like than dog like....yet there was no reference to a dna study supporting them mating with coyotes. As for the Bartram quote...well, that took place around the time of the American Revolution and the indian he saw had horses.....if he had european horses, why couldn't he have a european dog? If you recall, most indians when they first saw horses thought they were large dogs....I have no doubt precolumbian peoples of the americas had dogs....the genetic studies show that (that is all the study showed with the studies on carolina dogs). However, the dna studies on coyotes...show wolf dna and little to no dog dna, either modern ones or carolina dog dna. I will go with the dna on this issue...and not speculation which is what the article seemed to say. I also agree with Ben on another issue, why is this never an issue out west where coyotes are from? It is not. I have probably harvested hundreds of "coyotes" in my life in GA. and a good many out west too...they aint the same animal.....and the ones put in the genetic studies bear out the wolf/coyote theory where as the genetic studies also rule out the coy-dog theory.

There was an interesting experiment done over a number of years in the former soviet union with foxes....it did not take too long to create foxes that would bark, have floppy ears, curled tails and act like the family dog through selective breeding of foxes with no dog interbreeding...apparently those traits are co-occuring with friendliness towards humans. Who is to say that the black dog with the indian that Bartram saw was not a line breed florida wolf with those traits...he noted barking.

redneck_billcollector said:

However, the dna studies on coyotes...show wolf dna and little to no dog dna, either modern ones or carolina dog dna. I will go with the dna on this issue...and not speculation which is what the article seemed to say. I also agree with Ben on another issue, why is this never an issue out west where coyotes are from? It is not. I have probably harvested hundreds of "coyotes" in my life in GA. and a good many out west too...they aint the same animal.....and the ones put in the genetic studies bear out the wolf/coyote theory where as the genetic studies also rule out the coy-dog theory.

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Really?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535104

Widespread occurrence of a domestic dog mitochondrial DNA haplotype in southeastern US coyotes.
Adams JR, Leonard JA, Waits LP.
Source

Department of Fish and Wildlife, University of Idaho, College of Natural Resources, Room 105, Moscow, Idaho 83844-1136, USA.

Sequence analysis of the mitochondrial DNA control region from 112 southeastern US coyotes (Canis latrans) revealed 12 individuals with a haplotype closely related to those in domestic dogs

These results demonstrate that a male coyote hybridized with a female dog, and female hybrid offspring successfully integrated into the coyote population. The widespread distribution of this haplotype from Florida to West Virginia suggests that the hybridization event occurred long ago before the southeastern USA was colonized by coyotes

However, our results suggest that, contrary to previous reports, hybridization can occur between domestic and wild canids, even when the latter is relatively abundant. Therefore, hybridization may be a greater threat to the persistence of wild canid populations than previously thought.

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This yote shot on our WNC farm last Fall made well over 50#. I was mowing a bottom late last Summer when a mature, healthy 6 point buck came running full speed into pasture with his head down and his tongue lolling out like he'd been chased clean off the top of Rattlesnake Bald by a pack. That buck made straight for tractor like it was going to protect him, thought he was going to hit it, then veered off, sat down on his haunches sliding into an abrupt stop right in front of me with his head still down just heaving and wheezing for breath. He had bits of spit foam on his shoulders like he'd been evading at full run for a long time. Has to be a bold, experienced pack to go after a mature buck, right? I've heard packs taking deer/fawn at night too. Vicious growling, snarling combined with bleating, followed quickly by silence then yips of success. Its crossed my mind more than once how remarkably fast that silence do come.