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Old 10-08-2017, 11:47 PM
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Default The light of God abiding in politics today?

Is the light of God still abiding in the lives of people playing ( entertained by) politics today? Has politics spun itself to where people are oblivious ( completely unaware) to their wickedness? Do people just pass by politics and its hacks as if they were passing by zombie addicts in the downtowns of our cities and so without being pulled to the left or the right? And so the real politics today are private and not at the level of civil society? because society is no longer carried by the spirit of God?

----For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.2 Peter 1:21

----"The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land-- not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD. Amos 8:11
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:54 AM
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I think Romans 13 answers that question. God's sovereign hand is in all things all of the time.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:10 AM
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I think Romans 13 answers that question. God's sovereign hand is in all things all of the time.
In other words it is what it is?
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:53 PM
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Is the light of God still abiding in the lives of people playing ( entertained by) politics today? Has politics spun itself to where people are oblivious ( completely unaware) to their wickedness? Do people just pass by politics and its hacks as if they were passing by zombie addicts in the downtowns of our cities and so without being pulled to the left or the right? And so the real politics today are private and not at the level of civil society? because society is no longer carried by the spirit of God?

----For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.2 Peter 1:21

----"The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land-- not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD. Amos 8:11
There have been many famines throughout the land many times recorded in the Bible. But God in His Mercy continues to draw us back to Him. There is no difference from Abraham until now. God does mighty works and three minutes later we are off doing what is right in our own eyes. That is why I am glad that salvation belongs to the Lord, and He chooses us and not we choose Him.

Ezekiel 36:24-27
…24"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.…
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:42 AM
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In other words it is what it is?
In other words, God's sovereign hand is in every .gov.

I would say, I think our .gov is similar to the .gov of Paul's time. Our society is not a christian society and our gov is not a christian gov.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:58 AM
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In other words, God's sovereign hand is in every .gov.

I would say, I think our .gov is similar to the .gov of Paul's time. Our society is not a christian society and our gov is not a christian gov.
You are absolutely correct sir. The heart of the King is in the Lords hand, and He turn it where ever He wants to. It also clearly states that God raises up Kings and He brings them to naught. Nothing is outside of His control.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:06 AM
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In other words, God's sovereign hand is in every .gov.

I would say, I think our .gov is similar to the .gov of Paul's time. Our society is not a christian society and our gov is not a christian gov.
So if you are saying God directed our society to be "not a christian society" nor our gov to be christian! Why did God do this?

And if on the other hand it is due to the people,for the sake of understanding, what are the issues with the people who have their political origin in the pilgrims, a very devote, zealous, very christian and god fearing people? Was there issues from the beginning or are there other issues contrituting to a falling out with God as the society moved-moves along?
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:10 AM
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You are absolutely correct sir. The heart of the King is in the Lords hand, and He turn it where ever He wants to. It also clearly states that God raises up Kings and He brings them to naught. Nothing is outside of His control.
Why would God turn a people away from himself and Jesus especially that the people have their origins in Jesus, and in trusting God?

Ideas? Scripture?
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:39 AM
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So if you are saying God directed our society to be "not a christian society" nor our gov to be christian! Why did God do this?
Job 38-40

Also, Psalm 139

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And if on the other hand it is due to the people,for the sake of understanding, what are the issues with the people who have their political origin in the pilgrims, a very devote, zealous, very christian and god fearing people? Was there issues from the beginning or are there other issues contrituting to a falling out with God as the society moved-moves along?
Romans 3:9-18



Ultimately, God is in control...but that does not release man from his responsibility to obey. The two are held in tension.
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:04 PM
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Why would God turn a people away from himself and Jesus especially that the people have their origins in Jesus, and in trusting God?

Ideas? Scripture?
God did not do it. It is because we as human beings are just like all the ones represented in the scripture. One minute God works a miracle in our lives and the next we are off chasing our own desires. Here is our failure as Christian parents.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9New King James Version (NKJV)

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one![a] 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

So you see the failure is on us.
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:00 PM
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God did not do it. It is because we as human beings are just like all the ones represented in the scripture. One minute God works a miracle in our lives and the next we are off chasing our own desires. Here is our failure as Christian parents.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9New King James Version (NKJV)

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one![a] 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

So you see the failure is on us.
Is not this God's address to the Hebrews where God is saying teach your children. But does this apply to Christians because due Jesus God teaches us directly through the Holy Spirit that Christians are supposed live with and to being Christians! In other words God with us is the teacher and not man teaching man.

So the failure is us then and not God's will that we should fail as a society... ok. But is His word to the Hebrews the same as for Christians? I would suggest it is not. The word for Hebrews was for teaching, but the word for us is it not Jesus? So the failure can't be what it was for the Jews, we are not Jews or Hebrews, we are of gentile ( mostly) stock and Christians. We are not Hebrew and Jews. So if an answer is to be found in scripture concerning the desolation of Christian society and their govenment, than it should perhaps come forth from the New Testament accounts and letters? Or from Jesus directly? Or from God directly?

If this makes sense, I would appreciate you imput...if it don't make sense tell me why not?
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:44 PM
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Is not this God's address to the Hebrews where God is saying teach your children. But does this apply to Christians because due Jesus God teaches us directly through the Holy Spirit that Christians are supposed live with and to being Christians! In other words God with us is the teacher and not man teaching man.

So the failure is us then and not God's will that we should fail as a society... ok. But is His word to the Hebrews the same as for Christians? I would suggest it is not. The word for Hebrews was for teaching, but the word for us is it not Jesus? So the failure can't be what it was for the Jews, we are not Jews or Hebrews, we are of gentile ( mostly) stock and Christians. We are not Hebrew and Jews. So if an answer is to be found in scripture concerning the desolation of Christian society and their govenment, than it should perhaps come forth from the New Testament accounts and letters? Or from Jesus directly? Or from God directly?

If this makes sense, I would appreciate you imput...if it don't make sense tell me why not?
Romans 11:21-23

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Roman 10:13-15
13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”…

Jesus said if you love Me, then keep my commandments. God did not do away with the Old Testament, He fulfilled it with the shed blood of Jesus. The New Covenant is instituted in His blood.
Then He went on to say
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:47 PM
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Also if you believe that the above is only an address to the Hebrews, which it is not, just look then at the great commission.

Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:32 PM
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Also if you believe that the above is only an address to the Hebrews, which it is not, just look then at the great commission.

Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
You bring very good scripture my friend, both here and in the previous tread where you quote from Romans. I thank you for you patience in answering my questions. You are correct people have to be willing to stay in the way...to receive food from God ( is my way of understanding or saying it now). Thank you again.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:14 PM
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You bring very good scripture my friend, both here and in the previous tread where you quote from Romans. I thank you for you patience in answering my questions. You are correct people have to be willing to stay in the way...to receive food from God ( is my way of understanding or saying it now). Thank you again.
The Lord bless you as you continue to Seek the Lord!
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:18 AM
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You are absolutely correct sir. The heart of the King is in the Lords hand, and He turn it where ever He wants to. It also clearly states that God raises up Kings and He brings them to naught. Nothing is outside of His control.
You see Spineyman I had understood from the above at the beginning of this tread that everything was in God's control regards the light of God abiding in people. You were in accord with rjcruser that God's hand was sovereign.

And now, because of the last posts, I understand this means that it( the light abiding in people) greatly depends on the individual person. So if the people do not continue in God's kindness (Roman's 21) then they will fall away?

Is that the issue...? People deliberately do not continue in God's kindness?

I'm just back from a large city where I witnessed a man assaulting a women at a street light when all the traffic was stopped. ( There was lots of traffic.) It was impossible for all not to witness because the woman was shouting with bone chilling shreeks! No one got out of their car to help her and perhaps him. When I asked why to the driver who was from the city, I was told that there was a good chance that we would get knifed if we went over especially that the man beating the woman was of another ethnic origin than our own and he said, " We are nothing to them, they are animals." Also I later found out that many city smart people walk right past things like this and of it being extremely guarded because psychologically and socially they could not survive.

Would my not stopping to help or not calling the police so as not to be involved be a case of discontinuing in God's kindness? Would the driver's anecdote that because the person assaulting who was of an other ethnic group other then mine and that we were nothing to them in fact a declaration that "they" were nothing to us and therefore our reaction not at all in God's kindness?

Ideas?
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:56 AM
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The answer is we are called to be our brothers keeper. If we see someone in need , we are to help. So yes a woman in distress needs our help, and obviously the man doing the beating needs Jesus.
Luke 10:25-37
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion . 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:08 AM
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The answer is we are called to be our brothers keeper. If we see someone in need , we are to help. So yes a woman in distress needs our help, and obviously the man doing the beating needs Jesus.
Luke 10:25-37
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion . 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

But the point is people don't do as Jesus commands because they risk being killed? Or don't want to take the risk of being killed... or they are not trained to intervene in cases of violence...etc... Is this Ok or not? Is Jesus not saying here in this case help people after they get beat up...?
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:14 PM
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We so easily rationalize and dismiss what God wants us to do. Remember if you are truly His then the Bible says that we are not our own but we have been bought with a price. The Price was Jesus' blood. Mighty high price if you ask me, but He was will to lay down His own life for those He redeemed. Yes in some instances it could cost you your life, but more times than not it will rescue someone in need. Greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends. Here is a quote from Jim Elliot. " He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose ". Jesus is definitely not saying to wait until they are all beat up and then help. He is saying to rescue the innocent. Jesus said if you are going to follow me then pick up your cross daily and follow me. That means you die to yourself daily and be a servant. Remember Jesus said he came not to be served but to serve and be a ransom for many. If you want to be great in God's Kingdom, learn to be a servant of "ALL" Jesus said!
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:25 PM
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We so easily rationalize and dismiss what God wants us to do. Remember if you are truly His then the Bible says that we are not our own but we have been bought with a price. The Price was Jesus' blood. Mighty high price if you ask me, but He was will to lay down His own life for those He redeemed. Yes in some instances it could cost you your life, but more times than not it will rescue someone in need. Greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends. Here is a quote from Jim Elliot. " He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose ". Jesus is definitely not saying to wait until they are all beat up and then help. He is saying to rescue the innocent. Jesus said if you are going to follow me then pick up your cross daily and follow me. That means you die to yourself daily and be a servant. Remember Jesus said he came not to be served but to serve and be a ransom for many. If you want to be great in God's Kingdom, learn to be a servant of "ALL" Jesus said!
Why is it that for one Christian a liberal is the plague and for another Christian far right wing conservative is the plague? Same Jesus, same kingdom, same scripture? Both claim to value being a servant as per Jesus' instructions?

Anything in the bible about this or politics? Got an ear to the HS on this?
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:13 PM
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Why is it that for one Christian a liberal is the plague and for another Christian far right wing conservative is the plague? Same Jesus, same kingdom, same scripture? Both claim to value being a servant as per Jesus' instructions?

Anything in the bible about this or politics? Got an ear to the HS on this?
Romans 9:5-7
God's Sovereign Choice
5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen. 6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”…

I personally believe it has to do with actual interpretation of His Written Word. In all honesty we do not have a right to private interpretation, but rather should use scripture to interpret scripture. The Bible says to study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God to good works. Which is your reasonable service. If you look at Jesus, He was liberal in His administration of mercy and grace but very conservative on His Law. It was plain and simple, His way or the highway. So I cannot find any reason in the scripture to stand for the left and their liberal leanings. Jesus was and still is what you would say " radical". He said I am the way , the truth , and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. He also said
John 10:9

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. He also talked about the rich man. The riches wern't the problem, the heart towards riches was the problem. So having riches is no problem if you keep your priorities straight. No where can you show me that it is alright through forced coercion ( taxes ) (theft ).that you can take from one against their will and give it to any other. Other than that I am not sure what you are referring to liberal vs conservative.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:39 PM
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Romans 9:5-7
God's Sovereign Choice
5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen. 6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”…

I personally believe it has to do with actual interpretation of His Written Word. In all honesty we do not have a right to private interpretation, but rather should use scripture to interpret scripture. The Bible says to study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God to good works. Which is your reasonable service. If you look at Jesus, He was liberal in His administration of mercy and grace but very conservative on His Law. It was plain and simple, His way or the highway. So I cannot find any reason in the scripture to stand for the left and their liberal leanings. Jesus was and still is what you would say " radical". He said I am the way , the truth , and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. He also said
John 10:9

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. He also talked about the rich man. The riches wern't the problem, the heart towards riches was the problem. So having riches is no problem if you keep your priorities straight. No where can you show me that it is alright through forced coercion ( taxes ) (theft ).that you can take from one against their will and give it to any other. Other than that I am not sure what you are referring to liberal vs conservative.
That will do it... thanks. So taxes for the common good of all... ( which must mean giving it and its benefits to another) taxes decided by representatives of the constituents is not ok? it is always theft?

And Regards being conservative on the law... I understood Jesus differently... did he not glean on the Sabbath? overturn some tables..?

Liberals would see "radical" in a very different sense. And they would come back and say that scripture does not interpret scripture, but through the intermediary that is man it is interpreted, that the inanimate can interpret the inanimate is false.
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:36 PM
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That will do it... thanks. So taxes for the common good of all... ( which must mean giving it and its benefits to another) taxes decided by representatives of the constituents is not ok? it is always theft?

And Regards being conservative on the law... I understood Jesus differently... did he not glean on the Sabbath? overturn some tables..?

Liberals would see "radical" in a very different sense. And they would come back and say that scripture does not interpret scripture, but through the intermediary that is man it is interpreted, that the inanimate can interpret the inanimate is false.

There is nothing in and of itself bad about taxes, but when you strong arm someone to give and then use said taxes for unGodly uses then there is a problem. The Bible clearly states that if a man doesn't work, doesn't eat. Therefore giving to those less fortunate who need a hand up is no problem. Giving to those who want a hand out and will not work for it creates a problem. Show me in scripture where coerced theft is biblical.

Jesus following the Law of keeping the Sabboth is no surprise. He gave the Law.

The misinterpretation is precisely why we have so many denominations and disagreements about Gods Word. But trust me it was written at a specific time in history to a specific people for a specific reason. Therefore we have to use scripture to interpret scripture in light of what I just said using the original language as our guide. That is why we are admonished in scripture to be like the Bereans to search the scriptures daily and see if what is being said is so. it also tells us to study to show yourself approved unto God which is your reasonable service. So please tell me how you can understand it clearly without using all that I have mentioned above?
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Old 10-14-2017, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spineyman View Post
There is nothing in and of itself bad about taxes, but when you strong arm someone to give and then use said taxes for unGodly uses then there is a problem. The Bible clearly states that if a man doesn't work, doesn't eat. Therefore giving to those less fortunate who need a hand up is no problem. Giving to those who want a hand out and will not work for it creates a problem. Show me in scripture where coerced theft is biblical.

Jesus following the Law of keeping the Sabboth is no surprise. He gave the Law.

The misinterpretation is precisely why we have so many denominations and disagreements about Gods Word. But trust me it was written at a specific time in history to a specific people for a specific reason. Therefore we have to use scripture to interpret scripture in light of what I just said using the original language as our guide. That is why we are admonished in scripture to be like the Bereans to search the scriptures daily and see if what is being said is so. it also tells us to study to show yourself approved unto God which is your reasonable service. So please tell me how you can understand it clearly without using all that I have mentioned above?
I have never understood scripture 100% clearly...from my study or trying to understand someone else's study clearly. When I thought I knew something of scripture to a T, and a matter seem definite and settled often latter I found more or less than originally because my faith has not always been the same... ( My relationship with God is always changing.) Sometimes what I found myself strong in, I latter found it was weakness, and what I thought myself weak in, I found I was of great strength after all.

It seems to me that life in the way is a growing thing, as one's relationship with God grows with time. Scripture is important but my relationship with God is far more important.

To be honest the most simple things I learned that were God's, His way with the Hebrews and through his son Jesus or Jesus' way with the Jews, when I was a child continues to be a great light remembered and inspiration into the truth that is Christianity. ( Perhaps it is difficult to corrupt God's love in the heart of a child.) I could have been illiterate and almost ignorant of scripture as it was my parents who first informed me concerning the God of the patriarchs and Jesus and then the church followed by many examples of believers who were in the way.

In otherwords I understood clearly or just as clearly as studying scripture by the many examples of individuals, near and far, who had lived and some as I hope you are today, this very day, living in the way.

Perhaps the reason for so many denominations is not so much interpretations of scripture, but perhaps due to peoples who distress their born again lives by excessive study of that life to the detriment of what should be impressively living it.


I think that perhaps we need to ask who gives us liberty? Is it from the judgement of men and women who study scripture or God's judgement come through the lives of the people of faith???

From the get go, re: Christianity, many studied and knew scripture but did not recognize Jesus and in effect God. And not knowing life with God they were lost yet they claimed God to be especially theirs and so their way was false and so they were blinded.
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Last edited by gordon 2; 10-15-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:18 PM
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And concerning the Bereans, the original ones; It has always seemed to me, even to this day or it has been my impression that the testing of Paul's ministry ( his message to them) was their purpose in searching scripture and not so much for growth in faith.

And so since it is plain that we don't need to mistrust Paul or his message, I don't know why we would need to double check scripture and cross its every T to live our life in God?
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Last edited by gordon 2; 10-15-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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