Christianity runs into secularism.

ambush80 said:

Gem and Isreal,

Thanks for sharing those stories. They're fascinating. Any other miracles?

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Though to me "the confirmation" was nothing less than jaw dropping, the lesson was far more of value.
Though some things...many things, over a time become less uncommon, though still very surprising, also the many "leadings" that are quite personal, dreams, visions, etc. seemingly less striking, but later showing themselves, are no less profound of God's care.
This is one that was so very particular, it is almost humorous, in the best kind of way. As a reminder, at least to me, that God is quite concerned with what may seem at the time, a small matter to us.
In fact it was only about a month or two ago I availed myself of the interwebs to do a re check. Not that I over questioned my recollection...but precisely because it was so particular, I just wanted to see if I could revisit it.

A brother and myself were travelling from New Jersey to make a visit to another brother through upstate NY. We had decided that since time was not an essential in our travel, we'd take some back roads through towns that the interstate only skirted. We were on our way to visit a brother named Alan, and his family. Since this would take us quite near another brother with whom I had done much in the past (Australia is another story, where the three of us, Alan, myself and this "other brother" had gone)we questioned whether we should also make a stop to see this "other brother".

Not knowing, we offered a simple prayer "Lord, we don't know if this trip should include seeing Vaughan, or just Alan"...and kinda left it at that. Not much further down the road, as I recall...merely minutes as the prayer was still quite fresh with us...I thought I caught something out of the corner of my eye.
"Brother", I said, "turn around, I can't believe I saw what I think I just saw". Turning around we headed back, and there, on the building, a sign "Just Alan", a store of some sort on a road neither of us had traveled before. The spelling of the name was the same, Alan (obviously less common than Allen), and we were both pretty giddy. Being "led" is a comfort indescribable, being able to share it with others...so much even, beyond that.
Anyway, I had told my wife about this many years ago...but as I said, this being back in the early 90's the internet wasn't what it is. So, not long ago...just to see if my mind could be bolstered by anything...I plugged in "Just Alan" for a few upstate NY counties in Google, as I hadn't remembered our exact location on that trip where it took place. To tell the truth, because at the time the store didn't seem like it was "much of anything" besides some kinda country looking store, at least to me...beyond the sign on it, I really didn't expect anything to come of it.

http://www.justalan.com/items.html

The house I live in now, (with my miracle wife), my very wonderfully provided double wide paradise has its own story of God's hilarious goodness, as do many others...maybe at this time, a little too personal to share.
But I am pleased you appear so in the right spirit of these matters for God's goodness is often as surprisingly wonderful to the believer...as it may seem strange and foreign (as of yet) to one who may call himself otherwise.

Oh I hope for a different Alan's sake that another person with bad intentions didn't take that same sign as guidance as to who he was going to kill,rob or kidnap.

bullethead said:

The thing that most stands out is that her last few words, literally, we're scolding a diety that she devoted a life to.
Everybody has a made up deathbed story about some atheist switching sides at near death. I witnessed the exact opposite when there was literally nobody waiting for her at that moment.
She looked at me as if I was right the whole time.
RHC, as sure as you are about your beliefs and as sure as you are that you see signs that confirm it....I have the exact same internal feelings about the opposite. That moment in my life was the most unexpected event that I have ever had from the most unexpected source that could exist. You want to talk about a sign. I got it.

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You know, right...on certain calendar days God can easily hear millions, if not billions of voices telling Him how much they love Him. I am not endorsing "I hate you" as a fitting response at any particular time, but having learned, as I have had to, an honest "I hate you" is far more precious to God, and not at all something at which he falls over, and far more for Him to "work with" than feigned and self congratulatory protests of lips from hearts that are far from Him.
Here's a peculiar thing I believe I have come to see, God will press a man till he cannot help but speak what is in his heart. All, that is in his heart, venom or wine. I am not sure God cares much beyond that man finally being able to "see" himself as he is. Truth is very precious. Superficials...maybe not so much.
But here I would add, or ask, despite your seeming being convinced to your marrow..."how do you know to whom your mother in law spoke?" Or what? You "take away" she looked at me as though I was "right" all this time...in what...unbelief?

You know that scripture. "you who are neither hot nor cold..." Seems what the Lord appreciates least...is not a reviling diatribe of deepest invective (to me at least)...but that place where a man comforts himself in his casual acceptance of his own goodness for "going through the motions". You could ask how I have learned this, and of that peculiar method God has to disabuse a man from smug self righteousness to really living from the heart.
I don't presume, now, to be one of any particular sort...but I do find myself asking more frequently for a fire to help what I all too often perceive as a cold heart.
This, along with knowing God is not "shocked" at my estate, nor easily offended, goes a very long way to giving one such as myself...a great deal of hope.

bullethead said:

Oh I hope for a different Alan's sake that another person with bad intentions didn't take that same sign as guidance as to who he was going to kill,rob or kidnap.

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I can't even presume "our" intentions were "good". All we knew is that we didn't know, and asked.
I find I am far more likely to cause havoc, probably in some equivalence to the things you have mentioned, when I set out thinking "I'm very devoted to doing the right thing, Lord...now help".

Israel said:

I can't even presume "our" intentions were "good". All we knew is that we didn't know, and asked.
I find I am far more likely to cause havoc, probably in some equivalence to the things you have mentioned, when I set out thinking "I'm very devoted to doing the right thing, Lord...now help".

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My reply had nothing to do with you, it was just a thought on what that same sign could have done for another.

Israel said:

You know, right...on certain calendar days God can easily hear millions, if not billions of voices telling Him how much they love Him.

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No, no I do not know that at all.

Israel said:

I am not endorsing "I hate you" as a fitting response at any particular time, but having learned, as I have had to, an honest "I hate you" is far more precious to God, and not at all something at which he falls over, and far more for Him to "work with" than feigned and self congratulatory protests of lips from hearts that are far from Him.

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I do not believe for a single second that you know anything about a god, let alone what is precious. This is you interjecting what your version of God is based off of you.

Israel said:

Here's a peculiar thing I believe I have come to see, God will press a man till he cannot help but speak what is in his heart. All, that is in his heart, venom or wine. I am not sure God cares much beyond that man finally being able to "see" himself as he is. Truth is very precious. Superficials...maybe not so much.

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Peculiar yeah.

Israel said:

But here I would add, or ask, despite your seeming being convinced to your marrow..."how do you know to whom your mother in law spoke?" Or what? You "take away" she looked at me as though I was "right" all this time...in what...unbelief?

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Because we had an incredible relationship that allowed us to freely talk about all subjects including life and death. While she was in slightly better health she said she would give me an honest answer as to what is happening when she felt it was her time to die. She said she would let me know if it was joyous and majestic and full of God or if her death was just that, her body cells dieing slow and painfully with nothing joyous as she had convinced herself that it would be from her beliefs.
Her saying what she did is exactly what I did not expect from her, but she promised honesty and she was being completely honest. Her words and gaze upward and then her look to me was her keeping her word. She was ticked her god was a no-show.
Our conversations about an afterlife or any way of contact after death had each of us promising to make every effort to let the other know depending on who happened to pass first.
3 years now. No contact.

Israel said:

You know that scripture. "you who are neither hot nor cold..." Seems what the Lord appreciates least...is not a reviling diatribe of deepest invective (to me at least)...but that place where a man comforts himself in his casual acceptance of his own goodness for "going through the motions". You could ask how I have learned this, and of that peculiar method God has to disabuse a man from smug self righteousness to really living from the heart.

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I don't have to ask because I am positive you do not know anything about any specific god other than what you have convinced yourself you think you know.

Israel said:

I don't presume, now, to be one of any particular sort...but I do find myself asking more frequently for a fire to help what I all too often perceive as a cold heart.

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Presumption is in every line you type.

Israel said:

This, along with knowing God is not "shocked" at my estate, nor easily offended, goes a very long way to giving one such as myself...a great deal of hope.

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Knowing.....nah. you convincing yourself about the actions and thoughts of an invisible, unknowable, and silent made up entity goes a very long way of giving yourself a great deal of hope.

bullethead said:

Gem, I appreciate your honesty. I was just trying to go over some possibilities even though I am sure you have thought it through a thousand times over.

Did the piece of metal look like it was from another vehicle or was it more like something that would be debris?

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I wouldn't think it to be part of another vehicle. It looked to be a 2" faded red u-channel.

bullethead said:

Was the piece of metal 6' or 6"?

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When I saw it, it was in 2 pieces. Both pieces appeared to be about 3' each.

bullethead said:

Where was the coolant leaking from?

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A seam in the radiator. If you were looking through the grill of the truck, it would be the left side and close to the bottom.

bullethead said:

Did you or the mechanic take any pics?

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I didn't. If he did, he didn't mention it.

bullethead said:

These are some things I am curious about for my own thoughts.

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I Understand.

bullethead said:

No, no I do not know that at all.

I do not believe for a single second that you know anything about a god, let alone what is precious. This is you interjecting what your version of God is based off of you.

Peculiar yeah.

Because we had an incredible relationship that allowed us to freely talk about all subjects including life and death. While she was in slightly better health she said she would give me an honest answer as to what is happening when she felt it was her time to die. She said she would let me know if it was joyous and majestic and full of God or if her death was just that, her body cells dieing slow and painfully with nothing joyous as she had convinced herself that it would be from her beliefs.
Her saying what she did is exactly what I did not expect from her, but she promised honesty and she was being completely honest. Her words and gaze upward and then her look to me was her keeping her word. She was ticked her god was a no-show.
Our conversations about an afterlife or any way of contact after death had each of us promising to make every effort to let the other know depending on who happened to pass first.
3 years now. No contact.


I don't have to ask because I am positive you do not know anything about any specific god other than what you have convinced yourself you think you know.

Presumption is in every line you type.

Knowing.....nah. you convincing yourself about the actions and thoughts of an invisible, unknowable, and silent made up entity goes a very long way of giving yourself a great deal of hope.

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So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would have to accept, entered an agreement.

A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Did both she in her apparent devotion, and you from your previously confessed "devout" estate...forget?

Bullet, in the 20 years of discussing scripture with your MIL, did she ever tell you that there is only one mediator between God and men?

gemcgrew said:

Bullet, in the 20 years of discussing scripture with your MIL, did she ever tell you that there is only one mediator between God and men?

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Absolutely. The man Jesus Christ

Israel said:

So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would have to accept, entered an agreement.

A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Did both she in her apparent devotion, and you from your previously confessed "devout" estate...forget?

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She wanted to prove me wrong and on her deathbed she was truthful.

My previous devout state allows me to recall scripture. My current state allows me to take it for the man made work it is.

In your twisted heap of scripture quotes, there is one about some guy on his deathbed asking his father why he was forsaken.
Her final breaths might have been along those same lines.

ambush80 said:

Maybe Jesus saved you. Maybe Krishna saved you. Maybe Satan saved you to do his unholy bidding on GON forum.

Agency.

That's the thing that's interesting, not to say that the stories aren't amazing, please keep them coming. What I would like to hear is why people infer agency to the events they experienced.

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Some of it was timing, some of it was my Ninja like reflexes.
Satan may have had a part too.

bullethead said:

She wanted to prove me wrong and on her deathbed she was truthful.

My previous devout state allows me to recall scripture. My current state allows me to take it for the man made work it is.

In your twisted heap of scripture quotes, there is one about some guy on his deathbed asking his father why he was forsaken.
Her final breaths might have been along those same lines.

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Yep.

Israel said:

So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would have to accept, entered an agreement.

A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Did both she in her apparent devotion, and you from your previously confessed "devout" estate...forget?

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Mat. 7:1-3.
Yep

bullethead said:

Mat. 7:1-3.
Yep

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Now, you're talkin'!