What was the purpose of the Old Covenant?

[Artfuldodger]

Was the purpose of the Old Covenant between God & Israel to prove to them that they could not keep the Law so that he could send in a Savior?
If this was true then Israel's unfaithfullness & defiance was caused by God. Sin would have been created by God. Man never had a chance to live without sin. God created man to fail from the beginning.

Somehow I thought the Old Covenant's purpose was to protect Israel & bring them together and what Israel needed to do to worship God. I thought it was a covenant that man couldn't keep because of man's free will. I thought sin was created by man's free will.

[Ronnie T]

Originally Posted by Artfuldodger

Was the purpose of the Old Covenant between God & Israel to prove to them that they could not keep the Law so that he could send in a Savior?
If this was true then Israel's unfaithfullness & defiance was caused by God. Sin would have been created by God. Man never had a chance to live without sin. God created man to fail from the beginning.

Somehow I thought the Old Covenant's purpose was to protect Israel & bring them together and what Israel needed to do to worship God. I thought it was a covenant that man couldn't keep because of man's free will. I thought sin was created by man's free will.

Here's a pretty comprehensive Biblical answer.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[mtnwoman]

The OT proves to me that obviously we have free will or the Jews would've chosen Jesus by prechoice of God. God did have His 'elect' that didn't always have free will.....like Jonah, Moses, etc. However Moses had free will at times, or otherwise why would he have tried to destroy the ten commandment tablets? He was punished for that.

When Adam and Eve sinned, free will was pretty much unleashed on the earth and it's been a downhill slide ever since.

I'm a NT believer...however there is much in the OT that is such good teaching, like psalms, proverbs, etc etc. None of it is useless. Even the torah and it's harsh laws.....teaches us the understanding of why Christ says 'His yoke is light' compared to the old law.

If we try to live by the OT we are putting ourselves into 'slavery'.....we don't have to memorize the torah or read the bible hours upon hours, when we don't even understand what we're reading, just to abide by the law.

Christ has set us free from that, whether we are converted Jews or gentiles converted to Christianity.
If we didn't know and comprehend much of the OT how would we know what we've been freed from? How would we recognize grace and mercy? The OT, to me, is important to show me what God has done for us to draw us nigh.

[Artfuldodger]

I think God wanted Israel to keep the covenant, they just didn't have the ability or strength or desire.

[Artfuldodger]

Originally Posted by Ronnie T

Here's a pretty comprehensive Biblical answer.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

The view in that link is that the main purpose for the Old covenant was to prove man couldn't live by the Law and needed Jesus. I guess the Adam & Eve account was to prove man would sin. I've never looked at it in that respect and will have to study it more. That idea seems to destroy the free will concept totally.

[Artfuldodger]

I wonder why God made the Old covenant with only Israel and not the whole world if he want to show man would fail to follow the Law?
In the following excerpt Jesus came only to save the "lost sheep of Israel" and us Gentiles were an afterthought. It is a long and interesting read.
excerpt: Jesus Himself said that He had been sent only to the “lost sheep of Israel” (Matthew 15:24). In fact, Jesus initially told his twelve disciples not to go among the Gentiles but, instead, to the “lost sheep of Israel” (10:5,6). Jesus’ original purpose in coming was to redeem all of Israel from their old broken covenant and to bring them back into a new covenantal relationship with Himself, God in flesh, and with the Father in heaven. This is not to say that Gentile believers would not be included in the covenant at a later time—just not at first.

Furthermore, in speaking to those in Jerusalem, who primarily were Jews as He was, Jesus pointed out that He had “other sheep” not of that fold or sheep pen (John 10:16)—that is, not from the tribe of Judah. These “other sheep” were not Gentiles, at least initially; they were the other tribes of Israel besides Judah. In that same statement, Jesus added that “there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” He was not implying that the two flocks of sheep were Israel and the Church but, rather, that they were Israel and Judah. Later, the Church of believers would be “grafted into” Israel, and only by that means would they become part of the unified flock.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrv...raimJudah.html

[gemcgrew]

Read Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:1-4,9

The old covenant was faulty. It was a covenant made with physical Israel. It was a typical covenant. The blessings promised in it were types and pictures. The sacrifices of it were pictures of Christ and his one sacrifice for sin. The priests were typical of Christ, the great High Priest.

The old covenant was non-saving, it was only typical. The priests were sinful men, the sacrifices were animals and could never put sin away. If the old covenant could have saved, there would be no reason for Christ to come. The old covenant pointed to Christ.

[Artfuldodger]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

Read Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:1-4,9

The old covenant was faulty.

Did man make the old covenant faulty? I just read the Hebrew verses, it was man. I'm feeling relieved already.

I like this view:
excerpt: I have heard many people say, “the reason God gave us his law was so that we would fail in keeping it, thus needing a savior”. (Some might use Romans 5:20-21 to say this. Go here: for the explanation of these verses) That sounds good on the surface, but does the logic of God setting us up for failure so he can save us really make sense? Plus, where does it say that in the scriptures?

http://biblelaw101.com/Home/The%20Pu...27s%20law.html

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by gemcgrew

Read Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:1-4,9

The old covenant was faulty. It was a covenant made with physical Israel. It was a typical covenant. The blessings promised in it were types and pictures. The sacrifices of it were pictures of Christ and his one sacrifice for sin. The priests were typical of Christ, the great High Priest.

The old covenant was non-saving, it was only typical. The priests were sinful men, the sacrifices were animals and could never put sin away. If the old covenant could have saved, there would be no reason for Christ to come. The old covenant pointed to Christ.

I agree with all that.

I still don't get if we were preselected by God why do we need the gospel. Why didn't Christ just die on the cross for the sins of the chosen ones and that be the end of it. That's what a sacrifice is for ain't it? The prechosen are the only ones who will be saved, eh? Why keep on with all this preaching and teaching and missionaries losing their lives and all this money spending, when all has been nice and neatly prepacked already?

If I believe I'm saved because I believe what Jesus said we needed to do to be saved, but I don't believe I was part of the elect handpicked by God to be saved, then I'm not saved? ruhroh.....I might become a doubting thomas just any minute.

[Israel]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

I agree with all that.

I still don't get if we were preselected by God why do we need the gospel. Why didn't Christ just die on the cross for the sins of the chosen ones and that be the end of it. That's what a sacrifice is for ain't it? The prechosen are the only ones who will be saved, eh? Why keep on with all this preaching and teaching and missionaries losing their lives and all this money spending, when all has been nice and neatly prepacked already?

If I believe I'm saved because I believe what Jesus said we needed to do to be saved, but I don't believe I was part of the elect handpicked by God to be saved, then I'm not saved? ruhroh.....I might become a doubting thomas just any minute.

I am not "more" married today than the first day I said, "I do". But I do have a deeper love (I believe) ...knowledge, and understanding of that person for whom those words were uttered some years ago.
Now, the human relationship is contrary in that both my wife and I are just of the race of man.
But the one who has taken us to himself is married to a few more than I alone. To the extent I see them as "other" is the extent to which I am blind about this marriage. But he wants me to know Him. He wants me to see the others, love the others, know the others...because if I don't...I really don't know him at all.
Because they are also as much of him, as I hope to be. "But", I say, "won't I 'lose' myself if I let slip this thing in me that wants to keep it just between you and I? Won't I dissolve? Won't I 'go away'...and be lost to myself?"
Precisely.
"But", he says, "do you really want to know me...or just 'know you, knowing me'? "If you would know me, you will lose yourself, if you would know me, you will dissolve to yourself. If you would know me, knowing your own self will be consumed in the light of who I am"

"B-b-b-but Lord! How can I "be" if I lose myself?"

"Unless you lose yourself, you will never know who you truly are...or who I am"

"If you cannot be trusted with what is another's...how can you ever be trusted with what is truly your own?"

"oh...you mean there's something being held for me to discover...in a very safe place, but to see it I must lose all of what here tells me "I am me"?

"yes"

"but...how do I do that? how do I lose the thing that I have always trusted to tell me who and what I am, and that makes me..."me"...even the very thing I have trusted to tell me I love you, I belong to you, that I am saved? If I lose that, how will I know? How will "I" know I am yours?"


"Come", he says, "and follow me". "I promise you, it is all the gaining".

[gtparts]

Originally Posted by Artfuldodger

Was the purpose of the Old Covenant between God & Israel to prove to them that they could not keep the Law so that he could send in a Savior?
If this was true then Israel's unfaithfulness & defiance was caused by God.

Not sure how you can make this assumption. Israel's lapses of faith were of their own choice. That God foreknew their transgressions does not make Him responsible for them.

Sin would have been created by God. Man never had a chance to live without sin. God created man to fail from the beginning.

This is not correct. With His proclamation of His will, He makes it possible for His creations (with free will) to choose to rebel. He doesn't make them rebel. It is an act of the individual's will. Man has always had the option of obedience or disobedience, from Adam and Eve on down. God gave us all the choice; we just fail miserably, on our own.

Somehow I thought the Old Covenant's purpose was to protect Israel & bring them together and what Israel needed to do to worship God. I thought it was a covenant that man couldn't keep because of man's free will. I thought sin was created by man's free will.

The Old Covenant was to point the way and need for salvation by grace, Jesus, the Messiah. The old and new, together, are the revelation of God, that we might know Him, and be known by Him.

[Huntervationist]

Originally Posted by gtparts

The Old Covenant was to point the way and need for salvation by grace, Jesus, the Messiah. The old and new, together, are the revelation of God, that we might know Him, and be known by Him.

yes.... exactly as I understand it.

[1gr8bldr]

The Old Cov was kept by our best effort. By our striving. You might say for better understanding, confidence in the flesh. Ever thought about John's ministry. He was not a traveling evangalist. People flocked to him. Why? They had heard that someone was baptizing for the forgiveness of sins. Imagine living among those who considered themselves the religious elite, those who thought that they had mastered the law. The one's who hated Jesus because he pointed out the heart, not outward appearence. Living among that crowd would be like overweight people living among models. "I can't live up to that standard" would be the thought. So because of a realization of self, they flocked to John. Not because he was a great motivational speaker like we see in todays religion, but because they had heard that sins could be forgiven. Good news to those who put no confidence in the flesh. John took this opporitunity to tell them about one coming after him. Who would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Good news for sure. So much more

[Ronnie T]

Exodus 20:

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “ I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “ You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “ You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any .................................................. .................................................. .........................................

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by Ronnie T

Exodus 20:

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “ I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “ You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “ You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any .................................................. .................................................. .........................................

Clarity!

[Ronnie T]

Originally Posted by mtnwoman

Clarity!

God took the slaves from Egypt and made them His own nation. They belonged to Him.
As in any nation, there needs to be an understanding of national morality.
God's law to Israel gave them an understanding of what He expected, demanded.

That's what the covenant was. It established the relationship between God and Israel.

[hawglips]

There was nothing "faulty" about the law as given to Israel or the convenant with Abraham. It's purpose was to point His people to Christ who was to come.

[toddboucher]

point to Jesus

[Artfuldodger]

Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
Was the purpose of the Old Covenant between God & Israel to prove to them that they could not keep the Law so that he could send in a Savior?
If this was true then Israel's unfaithfulness & defiance was caused by God.
gtparts quote below:
Not sure how you can make this assumption. Israel's lapses of faith were of their own choice. That God foreknew their transgressions does not make Him responsible for them. (end quote)

I'm still having trouble with the purpose of the "Old Covenant". If God foreknew they couldn't keep the covenant from the get go, why did he make it? Didn't he set them up for failure to prove they needed a Savior? He didn't cause them to fail but by knowing they would fail why do it if not to lead the way for Jesus. Israel's unfaithfulness & defiance wasn't caused by God it was caused by man. God knew they wouldn't be able to keep the covenant. The promise of a Savior is the whole theme of the Old Testament. God didn't cause man not to keep the Law but he knew we couldn't. He knew Adam & Eve would sin. He knows who will accept him as Savior.
I don't like this line of thinking. I believe in freewill. I would rather think God wanted Adam & Eve to live in the garden without sin. I want to believe that God wanted Israel to follow the covenant. I want to believe that every non-believer has a chance to go to Heaven.

[gordon 2]

Originally Posted by Ronnie T

God took the slaves from Egypt and made them His own nation. They belonged to Him.
As in any nation, there needs to be an understanding of national morality.
God's law to Israel gave them an understanding of what He expected, demanded.

That's what the covenant was. It established the relationship between God and Israel.

I think that in their history, that of the Hebrews and eventually the Jews, God demonstrates his values by "how" he valued them. How they were to treat themselves and foreigners was evident by how God had and continued to treat them. When they on occations treated their own kind with injustice they failed spiritually and suffered "physically."

Their example is an example to all peoples and individuals. The hebrews as a people and as individuals were able to be in the Spirit or not. They chose in the end to make the temple equal to what we would know today as the military is to the industrial military complex. In other words the temple became a beast and a burden to the people.

Today nations and individuals have the same choices. They can hardline and spin the gospel and in so doing suffer scorn and strife or they can live it and at least hope for justice and peace...at least!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Galations 5:13

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

[thedeacon]

Originally Posted by gtparts

The Old Covenant was to point the way and need for salvation by grace, Jesus, the Messiah. The old and new, together, are the revelation of God, that we might know Him, and be known by Him.

Very good understandable explination.

[jmh5397]

Originally Posted by Artfuldodger

I'm still having trouble with the purpose of the "Old Covenant". If God foreknew they couldn't keep the covenant from the get go, why did he make it? Didn't he set them up for failure to prove they needed a Savior?

Let's assume for a minute that you have children. And you told one of those children: "Don't you do that (insert whatever bad thing you would like)...If you do (that) you're going to get hurt". By saying "if you do that"... you have given that child "free choice" to do what it is that they wanted to do. Now, you knew that they were going to get hurt, but you still gave them the choice. Did you set your child up for failure? Did you want them to get hurt?

God gave US the old testament to prove that even his "chosen" couldn't keep the covenant, that WE ALL fall short of His glory, and need Christ as our Saviour. Christ came for all people, however, not all will accept Him.

Why did God make this promise to His people? The same reason you loan someone a few dollars when you know that they are not going to pay you back.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by Ronnie T

God took the slaves from Egypt and made them His own nation. They belonged to Him.
As in any nation, there needs to be an understanding of national morality.
God's law to Israel gave them an understanding of what He expected, demanded.

That's what the covenant was. It established the relationship between God and Israel.

No I meant your post was clarity...sorry I'm jumping in 'late'. I was saying your post #14 was clarity...I wasn't asking for clarity.

[mtnwoman]

Originally Posted by Israel

I am not "more" married today than the first day I said, "I do". But I do have a deeper love (I believe) ...knowledge, and understanding of that person for whom those words were uttered some years ago.
Now, the human relationship is contrary in that both my wife and I are just of the race of man.
But the one who has taken us to himself is married to a few more than I alone. To the extent I see them as "other" is the extent to which I am blind about this marriage. But he wants me to know Him. He wants me to see the others, love the others, know the others...because if I don't...I really don't know him at all.
Because they are also as much of him, as I hope to be. "But", I say, "won't I 'lose' myself if I let slip this thing in me that wants to keep it just between you and I? Won't I dissolve? Won't I 'go away'...and be lost to myself?"
Precisely.
"But", he says, "do you really want to know me...or just 'know you, knowing me'? "If you would know me, you will lose yourself, if you would know me, you will dissolve to yourself. If you would know me, knowing your own self will be consumed in the light of who I am"

"B-b-b-but Lord! How can I "be" if I lose myself?"

"Unless you lose yourself, you will never know who you truly are...or who I am"

"If you cannot be trusted with what is another's...how can you ever be trusted with what is truly your own?"

"oh...you mean there's something being held for me to discover...in a very safe place, but to see it I must lose all of what here tells me "I am me"?

"yes"

"but...how do I do that? how do I lose the thing that I have always trusted to tell me who and what I am, and that makes me..."me"...even the very thing I have trusted to tell me I love you, I belong to you, that I am saved? If I lose that, how will I know? How will "I" know I am yours?"


"Come", he says, "and follow me". "I promise you, it is all the gaining".

I know, I understand what you're saying.

[Israel]

It seems before I have a self to give to the Lord, I have to realize I have a "self".
This self is shown to be of a particular nature when it is told what to do. It does not like it...and goes about furiously to preserve itself when it is shown to be in disobedience to what it has been told.
It manufactures its own righteousness.
It's really quite bizarre.
That's because it was not created to be "by itself". But rebellion to instruction isolates it, makes it very aware of the instructor being "someone else"...the very one it was created to be in union with. (It is not good for man to be alone)
It was created for complete liberty...but all it experiences is constraint in instruction and command. What can fix it? Who can drain the rebellion that comes by knowledge of itself?
Perhaps...a different man. A man who willingly suffers all the contradiction "in himself" that is experienced as a result of his obedience. In the place of our disobedience. The world.
Rather than outwardly divorce (The woman YOU gave me) he allows an inward divorce to take place, holding to both his bride and his creator...and suffering the sure death it brings by refusal to let go of either.
He let go of his "self".
Jesus is the man who refused his own self. (Of myself, I can do nothing), to abide both in obedience to his Father, and fellowship with weak man.
I look into Jesus and see the instructor to me is not someone else. He has become a weak man as I am. He was not ashamed to come in the form of flesh...nor is he ashamed that I am.
And in there, I see who dwells...the Ancient of Days...hidden from natural sight...purposefully...that only those who look to the cross, as the children looked to the Brazen Serpent...and see what hangs there...and says..."that's me"...the thing that is opposed to God's glory, God's way.
He who knew no sin became sin FOR US...
Only the revelation of the resurrection...that this One...who became a curse for me...now is arisen, sitting at the right hand of God, allows me to even admit..."I am the man deserving of all God's wrath".
His mercy overcomes my desire to cover "my self" in my own righteousness, the fraud.
The lie.
The sin.
Somehow, miraculously...God does with each what he did with the only begotten who led the way, the one who loved me...and gave himself for me.
He raises us.

[gordon 2]

Originally Posted by Israel

It seems before I have a self to give to the Lord, I have to realize I have a "self".
This self is shown to be of a particular nature when it is told what to do. It does not like it...and goes about furiously to preserve itself when it is shown to be in disobedience to what it has been told.
It manufactures its own righteousness.
It's really quite bizarre.
That's because it was not created to be "by itself". But rebellion to instruction isolates it, makes it very aware of the instructor being "someone else"...the very one it was created to be in union with. (It is not good for man to be alone)
It was created for complete liberty...but all it experiences is constraint in instruction and command. What can fix it? Who can drain the rebellion that comes by knowledge of itself?
Perhaps...a different man. A man who willingly suffers all the contradiction "in himself" that is experienced as a result of obedience.
Rather than outwardly divorce (The woman YOU gave me) he allows an inward divorce to take place, holding to both his bride and his creator...and suffering the sure death it brings by refusal to let go of either.
He let go of his "self".
Jesus is the man who refused his own self. (Of myself, I can do nothing), to abide both in obedience to his Father, and fellowship with weak man.
I look into Jesus and see the instructor to me is not someone else. He has become a weak man as I am. He was not ashamed to come in the form of flesh...nor is he ashamed that I am.
And in there, I see who dwells...the Ancient of Days...hidden from natural sight...purposefully...that only those who look to the cross, as the children looked to the Brazen Serpent...and see what hangs there...and says..."that's me"...the thing that is opposed to God's glory, God's way.
He who knew no sin became sin FOR US...
Only the revelation of the resurrection...that this One...who became a curse for me...now is arisen, sitting at the right hand of God, allows me to even admit..."I am the man deserving of all God's wrath".
His mercy overcomes my desire to cover "my self" in my own righteousness, the fraud.
The lie.
The sin.
Somehow, miraculously...God does with each what he did with the only begotten who led the way, the one who loved me...and gave himself for me.
He raises us.

[Israel]

lovely, Gordon...