What you need to recognize is that sin does still dwell in us. You are correct when you say we have freedom from it through Christ, but that does not mean it is absent. It means that it no longer has dominion over us. In other words, we don't have to obey it as our master any longer.
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Paul's struggle of two natures.
- Thread starter hobbs27
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What you need to recognize is that sin does still dwell in us. You are correct when you say we have freedom from it through Christ, but that does not mean it is absent. It means that it no longer has dominion over us. In other words, we don't have to obey it as our master any longer.
hobbs27
Senior Member
What is your understanding of these verses alone? Specifically about "when we were in the flesh".
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
This speaks of the time in our life when we were totally flesh. We were "married" to the flesh, one with the flesh. But there came a time when we were given liberty from the flesh and became one with Christ.
We still contend with the flesh daily. Sometimes we even "adulterate" with the flesh, if I may be so blunt. But our husband is Jesus Christ. He paid the price for His bride and gave us His Spirit as an "engagement ring" so to speak.
Do a study on the Greek arrabona. It's found in Eph.1 as the "earnest" of our inheritance.
The modern Greek says it's an engagement ring.
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hobbs27
Senior Member
We see things differently again.
Verse 1 Speaking to his Jewish brethren ( those who know the law)
Verse 2 The woman = Old Covenant Israel married to God and bound to the Law.... God the Son dies...releasing her from the marriage contract... IE covenant.
Verse 3 Shows how while Jesus lived Old Covenant Israel was an adulteress " we have no king but Caesar " ..... But as He died, setting her free it gave those of the Old covenant an opportunity to marry another.. The Son. A new marriage contract was made.. IE covenant.
Verse 4 Shows them as betrothed to Jesus.. This was their purification process.. Legally bound but not yet consummated in marriage... Not quiet in all the New Covenant had to offer. Romans 8:18 ylt
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory ABOUT to be revealed in us;
Verse 5 in the flesh represents in the old covenant body... That is contrasted with in the Spirit which is Jesus or new covenant body.
gordon 2
Senior Member
I'll stab at it...
For when we were in the flesh,....
(for when we were under the mediating law we then could know and become cognisant ( conscious) that sinful passions were at work in our makeup as human beings which was not ideal at all) Now in the Spirit, (in Christ) we are still made aware of sin ---after all that is what our Savoir died for.)
The flesh here is a perhaps a synonym for law. The pejorative use of the world flesh is only evident for the law according to Paul. And in the scheme of things Holy, in God's time ministering to man, the law is a hiccup, an eye bat.
For Paul the Spirit dresses, wraps around or covers the nakedness of a sinner. Or perhaps I can say the physical body ( that is doomed to death) that due its sin nature enters into a covering covenant with the Holy Spirit, with God, by being in Christ. Christ now is the mediator as opposed to the law previous. The law focused on sin, Jesus focuses on the love God has for man and God's nature in general since before time and times to follow.
The physical body is still in a world of sinful tricks, law or no law, ( men behaved with evil intent before the law, with the law and still does today post the law) however man even the saved still needs mediation through our Lord via Holy Spirit. (Present need of prayer on earth and in heaven is the proof.) So man is not yet fully covered or wrapped integrally with sinless nature. The promise follows that he will be.
The promise follows that at the Resurrection the flesh of the righteous will resurrect into their glorious bodies ( full of grace +p now), ( the mortal will take on ( put on like putting on a garment) the immortal not unlike the flesh of our resurrected Christ, and we will see God as He is again, as when man and God walked together and man sinless.
???
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When Paul addresses those that know the law, he's in effect saying " let me put this concept in terms that you'll be familiar with. He's speaking their "lawyer" lingo, in other words, to convey something they'd never heard...the gospel.
hobbs27
Senior Member
They did know the Gospel... These were Jewish Christians he was addressing.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Very good Gordon.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Paul/Saul makes the perfect example, because he was zealous for the law at one time. But eventually saw the light and all his works became as rubble, as he torn down his beautiful temple that he had figuratively built for God to dwell in, but as Stephen said "God does not live in houses made by man". He then declared, "by the grace of God, I am what I am" not by my best efforts or discipline. He then saw the gospel where we wait patiently for the righteousness that comes by faith, not works or discipline. Modern day churches have returned to the law figuratively because they teach how to clean the flesh. And there lies the pride of having accomplished righteousness, that beautiful temple, made by man, needing to be turned to rubble. Jesus said "not one of these stones will be left standing"
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Well illustrated, was Saul looking for the life lifesaver or was his repentance his reaching for it?
Saul was drowning in his own temple. He repented from his way of thinking.
Israel
BANNED
It would appear it could be not only impossible to separate Paul's understanding of the revelation to him in his own testimony, as it would be helpful to not seek to.
He was, if we believe him, struck in a fury.
There is nothing to indicate that to Paul's opinion or seeing at the time, he was "lost" or in need of God in the sense we might use it. No. To the contrary, above all things he appears as one convinced head to toe he is completely given to the will of God in "breathing out threatenings and slaughters" against the people of God. He never once says anything to indicate in that endeavor he was convinced of anything but his complete rightness in that, and his wholeheartedly being given...to that.
We do know again through his letter to the Philippians that in those matter of flesh in which a man might boast, he has still not relinquished any ground that to himself would appear as pinnacle. Hebrew of Hebrews, touching the law, a Pharisee, etc. No, in all the things a man might appear to himself in any sort of worthiness, he well understood all of that attainment...meant absolutely...nothing.
But I believe he saw further than mere uselessness...but to the very contrariness such appearance works. "If a man thinks he is something, when he is nothing" he wrote elsewhere; such thinking is set for the working against any and all that is true. And of the truth.
A man must be "won away" from the beholding of himself, the consideration of himself as anything at all, lest he miss the heavenly vision of the man who is the "all in all".
It indeed takes a love greater than a man has for himself, and all he might "make of himself" (who would deny the miracle in the revelation of that?) to save him.
WE sometimes speak of election...the "why thens" and "why if thens" of it. Even lately the question has arisen "then why didn't God just create all of His elect in heaven?
He did, and does.
and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
YLT
The elect One, the chosen One in who God the Father delights is of Heaven in all and every sense. Those found in him, if, so called believing in election or opposing (in some measure its truth) are found in him not by believing in election, not by speaking of election, not by seeking to uphold election as a thing unto itself...but by the truth that "He" alone is the elect One, he is the chosen One, He is the one to whom God the Father of all, has set His seal...as being in, and from, Heaven.
Jesus is Lord.
gordon 2
Senior Member
StriperAddict
Senior Member
May I try?
Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??
Would the ones who might have zealous fervor in keeping all the 10 have any greater link to righteousness than sinners made right by a free gift?
Sneaky fellow that I can be - I often test the beloved with a statement such as ...
I truly love the Christ I see in you, and that always!
Sadly, many shoot right over to how well they have handled their law keeping, their performance, and more sadly still they might say how heaven is "beating them up" lately, "you just don't know what I've done".
Few might say,
Christ, my very life - in my weakness He is strong, and faithful, yes I am blessed to reflect Him, however imperfectly.
To answer your question more directly, and from personal experiences, I too was counting up the times a command was dropped or obeyed in the hopes of that word "well done" was heard. I thought that this religious performance was the be all and end all of how to live a good christian life.
This nonsense is healed in a death and a resurrection.
God doesn't grade on a curve, nor can the 10 commandments, as perfect and beautiful as they are, ever impute life or "right-ness". No, in their very existence they do one thing and one thing quite well - slay the living tar out of the man well content in his performance of the same.
I see in another a greater "performer", better, a Perfect Man. What He has gained by merit of Father's word (law/torah, the 10, etc.) He takes and creates a better merit system "so to speak" ...
Coming on the scene of humanity He lives His earthly life to redeem, purchase back, those who were under the impossibility of that law, those words on pages, and yes, that stuff of the perfect ... etched on stone.
And the Holy Spirit would call those etchings ... a ministry of condemnation. wow, do we see? Far greater merits by the faith of Christ, and in Him and He in us. And not of ourselves ... please Lord, shut down the boaster.
What the law could not do, God did ... wait, stop right there, reflect, smell, taste and see ...
God did. GOD DID!
To the extent we stop striving
(cease striving and know something - "I Am")
and start resting - living out of the grace that saves ...
yes in all our faithlessness and weakness,
He gives rest, He gives rest abundantly.
It's ok if you or I are uncomfortable with a right-ness that dashes our pride to pieces, we've had the old for many of our days. It was our band-aid, our false face, our faker that we put on to cope with life.
And He does not judge us in this as anyone other than one who would be well equipped with His very Person, yes, His very nature.
Yes, we navigate anew!
So, I guess I am a sucker for the simple if it keeps me from the exhaustion of striving then!
Yes, enough, I was a foolish, law striving Galatian for too long,
I could be called a fool ... for Another
Israel
BANNED
May I try?
Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??
Would the ones who might have zealous fervor in keeping all the 10 have any greater link to righteousness than sinners made right by a free gift?
Sneaky fellow that I can be - I often test the beloved with a statement such as ...
I truly love the Christ I see in you, and that always!
Sadly, many shoot right over to how well they have handled their law keeping, their performance, and more sadly still they might say how heaven is "beating them up" lately, "you just don't know what I've done".
Few might say,
Christ, my very life - in my weakness He is strong, and faithful, yes I am blessed to reflect Him, however imperfectly.
To answer your question more directly, and from personal experiences, I too was counting up the times a command was dropped or obeyed in the hopes of that word "well done" was heard. I thought that this religious performance was the be all and end all of how to live a good christian life.
This nonsense is healed in a death and a resurrection.
God doesn't grade on a curve, nor can the 10 commandments, as perfect and beautiful as they are, ever impute life or "right-ness". No, in their very existence they do one thing and one thing quite well - slay the living tar out of the man well content in his performance of the same.
I see in another a greater "performer", better, a Perfect Man. What He has gained by merit of Father's word (law/torah, the 10, etc.) He takes and creates a better merit system "so to speak" ...
Coming on the scene of humanity He lives His earthly life to redeem, purchase back, those who were under the impossibility of that law, those words on pages, and yes, that stuff of the perfect ... etched on stone.
And the Holy Spirit would call those etchings ... a ministry of condemnation. wow, do we see? Far greater merits by the faith of Christ, and in Him and He in us. And not of ourselves ... please Lord, shut down the boaster.
What the law could not do, God did ... wait, stop right there, reflect, smell, taste and see ...
God did. GOD DID!
To the extent we stop striving
(cease striving and know something - "I Am")
and start resting - living out of the grace that saves ...
yes in all our faithlessness and weakness,
He gives rest, He gives rest abundantly.
It's ok if you or I are uncomfortable with a right-ness that dashes our pride to pieces, we've had the old for many of our days. It was our band-aid, our false face, our faker that we put on to cope with life.
And He does not judge us in this as anyone other than one who would be well equipped with His very Person, yes, His very nature.
Yes, we navigate anew!
So, I guess I am a sucker for the simple if it keeps me from the exhaustion of striving then!
Yes, enough, I was a foolish, law striving Galatian for too long,
I could be called a fool ... for Another
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
May I try?
Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??
Would the ones who might have zealous fervor in keeping all the 10 have any greater link to righteousness than sinners made right by a free gift?
Sneaky fellow that I can be - I often test the beloved with a statement such as ...
I truly love the Christ I see in you, and that always!
Sadly, many shoot right over to how well they have handled their law keeping, their performance, and more sadly still they might say how heaven is "beating them up" lately, "you just don't know what I've done".
Few might say,
Christ, my very life - in my weakness He is strong, and faithful, yes I am blessed to reflect Him, however imperfectly.
To answer your question more directly, and from personal experiences, I too was counting up the times a command was dropped or obeyed in the hopes of that word "well done" was heard. I thought that this religious performance was the be all and end all of how to live a good christian life.
This nonsense is healed in a death and a resurrection.
God doesn't grade on a curve, nor can the 10 commandments, as perfect and beautiful as they are, ever impute life or "right-ness". No, in their very existence they do one thing and one thing quite well - slay the living tar out of the man well content in his performance of the same.
I see in another a greater "performer", better, a Perfect Man. What He has gained by merit of Father's word (law/torah, the 10, etc.) He takes and creates a better merit system "so to speak" ...
Coming on the scene of humanity He lives His earthly life to redeem, purchase back, those who were under the impossibility of that law, those words on pages, and yes, that stuff of the perfect ... etched on stone.
And the Holy Spirit would call those etchings ... a ministry of condemnation. wow, do we see? Far greater merits by the faith of Christ, and in Him and He in us. And not of ourselves ... please Lord, shut down the boaster.
What the law could not do, God did ... wait, stop right there, reflect, smell, taste and see ...
God did. GOD DID!
To the extent we stop striving
(cease striving and know something - "I Am")
and start resting - living out of the grace that saves ...
yes in all our faithlessness and weakness,
He gives rest, He gives rest abundantly.
It's ok if you or I are uncomfortable with a right-ness that dashes our pride to pieces, we've had the old for many of our days. It was our band-aid, our false face, our faker that we put on to cope with life.
And He does not judge us in this as anyone other than one who would be well equipped with His very Person, yes, His very nature.
Yes, we navigate anew!
So, I guess I am a sucker for the simple if it keeps me from the exhaustion of striving then!
Yes, enough, I was a foolish, law striving Galatian for too long,
I could be called a fool ... for Another
To all this I say Amen...
but must give a cautious reminder to take heed of the death that James speaks of, and also those things that grieve the Holy Spirit that lives in us.
They are still very real to us, even with the liberty we have.
StriperAddict
Senior Member
Indeed, not abusing this precious liberty as an occasion for the flesh, rather to serve one another in a love not our own; amen!
